Didn't someone here say that the Santisima Trinidad was shorter than the Victory? Could that be the case here, and not a scale issue?
Didn't someone here say that the Santisima Trinidad was shorter than the Victory? Could that be the case here, and not a scale issue?
I have a Spanish stern already. Perhaps I should do some comparison pictures.Originally Posted by Nightmoss
I would also do Santissima conversions.
I think DB has the truth of this conundrum.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Anything that you can do in this respect will not only be a greatly appreciated addition, but may also help to shed more light on what can be done to rectify the error for those of us with the skills to do so.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
This is the Santa Ana Langton stern piece I expect to place onto a British First Rate. I think it will look reasonably good, but we'll have to see.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
I don't think there are exact plans of the ST anywhere in existence? However, there are plans for Spanish 112 gun First Rates which was the basis of her construction. That being said I don't think the ST was likely shorter than HMS Victory, but I'm not an authority on naval architecture? Maybe DB and/or David will chime in, but they may also be tired of my bringing the scale issues up in the first place?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Re Santa Ana.
Quite some difference their Jim between the Langton interpretation and the Ares one.
Which way are you inclined to lean?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Personally I think the Langton 1/1200 sculpts are 'closer' to what the Ares 1/1000 Santa Ana is supposed to be. Still smaller than it should be, but if I put the Langton stern piece on a British First Rate I'll be happy with that.Quite some difference their Jim between the Langton interpretation and the Ares one.
Which way are you inclined to lean?
Rob.
As I said above if we do get the Santisima Trinidad done in 1/1000 and it's accurate I can modify as needed the other Spanish First Rates. They should be somewhat comparable as the basis is a 112 gun platform. The ST just went beyond by creating the fourth continuous gun deck.
The largest ship at that time still goes to the Ocean class French First Rates, which was the basis for my ST kitbash you can see in my avatar. In real scale terms that kitbash is much larger that the ST would likely be at 1/1000? But she still looks good on the table.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Thanks Jim. I am gradually working up the courage to emulate this and try to achieve something approaching your ST.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
ST was 61.29m on main gundeck, Victory only 56.08. So if there's an engineering relationship between ST and the other Spanish three-plus-deckers the later ships would be cut-down versions shortened by a few ports per deck.
Correcting the Meregildos sculpt would be too costly for Ares to do, so that's another where I'm going to suggest an Officially Licensed Correction Kit via Shapeways when comms resume.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Also, just MHO, but the Langton sculpt is closer to the "shape" indicated on the drawing for Salvador del Mundo's stern gallery. Maybe the "big versions" had a more circular backplane, but at least Salvador distinctly looks relatively more tall and narrow, more like a horseshoe than the end of a keg.
If Sails had stayed 1/1200 as first planned, my Ares Meregildoses would be staying in their boxes for "collection completeness" and I'd be hiring one of you guys to build and paint me a half-dozen Langtons to go onto the bases in their place. (This also WILL be happening with my Ares Bf109K's as soon as I find 1/200 -K-specific sculpts at a price I like.)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I'm pretty sure I've posted this link elsewhere on our forums, but many of the people playing Naval Action are into the history of the Age of Sail. The "Shipyard" of the Game Labs forums has some very informative links, photos and information.
Here's the link to the Spanish thread.
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php...on-with-plans/
While poking through those images I found that someone had acquired plans from the Spanish Navy website/archives?
Be patient as it takes some time for it to load.
www.armada.mde.es
And there's a history section although I've not located the ship plans yet?
The Battle of Trafalgar is also covered.
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPorta...algar_by_aller
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Those look closer to ares than Langton. Good job those men! Shame about them being off on scale
Jim, that drawing, though I don't know what it's of, looks more like the Ares sculpt than the Langton. Also, the length I cited was for the shorter variation of the Meregildos design, the longer was IIRC a couple meters longer, maybe halfway between Victory and Trinidad.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
My Principe de Asturias arrived today, and right off I saw that Ares used the masts and sails from the 1st wave 74's to rig it. That probably accounts for the size of the hull. A first rate hull would have been oversized for the rig. Ares probably didn't want to risk the complaints and packaging issues with the 1st rate masts, and thought we'd let the scale shift slide? It's a very attractive miniature, it just doesn't measure up size-wise to the other 1st Rates.
Did the Spanish have any notable 2nd Rates that might be represented by these ships? I don't know much about second rates in general.
Can some one put a shot up next to a British and French first rate?
Thanks for pointing that out, Dobbs--I just tossed up a draft of my "W-T-F'ing-F?!" note to Ares for community review, and I'd appreciate it if you'd cross-post a reminder over there. :)
Second Rates were uniquely British, I'm afraid.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
A quick look on Wiki and measurements of 3 the big ships...measurements in gun deck meters.
wiki stat/my measurement
Royal Sovereign 56/55
Impérial 65/60
Santa Ana 59/50
If you look at the gap at the front you can see even more of a difference.
The Ocean Class starts at the rear edge of the base while the other 2 start part way through the name plate.
Some ships on the wiki mention length of gundeck specifically and some don't specify.
Santa Ana from my eyeballs looks to be larger than a Nepomuceno 55/48 but a smidge smaller than a Temeraire 56/56.
It's a shame this happened this late in the range (same as the 64's rigging for tornado weather) and that they market it as 1/1000th scale when that is clearly not the case
which I believe under Australian Consumer Law requires a full refund if one so chooses as that is not what you have received.
The Trinidad is listed as 61 so will be interesting to see where it lies in relation.
Thanks for the comparison Alan. It does not make me feel any better about things, but one picture is worth ........ etc.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
ThreeDecks is better than Wikipedia... it draws from more reliable sources, and for game purposes except when countermanded by BWAS or FWAS it's the "game bible." (IMO they OVER-rely on it and should lean more on scholarly sources like Winfield, but...)
BTW, Rob, if you think the draft note I posted in the Wardroom would be more appropriate somewhere else, please move accordingly. :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I think it is in exactly the right place to get the maximum exposure to the members DB.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Just read DB mail and I think it captures the aura of discontent and growing dissapointment, I am sure most are aware of my opinion of at least one on the list.
But what .i do seem to have missed is the sail issue, where has this been discussed ?
Starts at post 47 here Chris.
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ghlight=series
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I just posted that as a representation of some of the drawings you could find on the Game Labs forum thread. At least some of those drawings seem to have come from 'official' sources in Spain?
IMHO I think the Ares stern sculpt is too much like a horseshoe (too verticle) and the Langton too much like a barrel hoop (too round)? I think the actual stern galleries might have been somewhere in between?
2nd Rate Real Fenix
Model of Princiipe de Asturias
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Cant see your pictures Jim.
Perhaps they're somehow being blocked? I see them fine?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Seeing as Alan brought this up in post #68 I'm going to post four photos I took comparing the Argonauta (Temeraire) with the San Francisco de Asis (Nepomuceno). Were the historical ships really that much different in size? What figures I could find may not be accurate?
San Francisco de Asis (Nepomuceno)
W 51' 4"
L 196' 4"
H 25; 1"
Argonauta (Temeraire)
W 51' 2"
L 185'
H 21' 6"
Argonauta on Right
Argonauta on Right
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Jim, the other thing is that various sources at Wikipedia aren't always consistent about which "foot" they're using between the Spanish Burgos foot, French pied du roi or English Imperial foot. This is why when we're doing research for Ares, we *always* rely on metric measurements... and ALWAYS go to the more reliable ThreeDecks first.
Also, do remember that the sculpt is specifically Bahama as-taken (which is really a 64-gun hull that's been up-gunned and slightly enlarged in rebuild), and Temeraire is a *very big* interpretation of the 74-gun layout, only exceeded in size by some of the American designs like Independence and Washington before revision into "spar-deckers". Temeraire is 55.87m for "reference design", Bahama is 53.34 while a purpose-built Gautier 74 (most of the SGN112 names) would be in the high-54- to low-55-meter range, San Juan Nepomuceno specifically and many of her sisters running 55.17, so for a "sculpt basis" the difference should be around 2.5mm on main gun deck.
Last edited by Diamondback; 02-04-2017 at 13:01.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I was aware of the Burgos foot, which should be 278.6mm. I wasn't using Wikipedia, but Todo a babor instead. If my math is right and the measurements on Todo a babor are accurate the Argonauta should be 55.72 meters long? San Francisco de Asis would be 54.71 meters long?
I'd forgotten the Bahama design aspect of these sculpts, which likely changes things significantly. As for actual sculpt differences of around 2.5mm I just measured them both. Main deck of San Francisco from cathead to stern is 48mm. Argonauta from cathead to stern is 56mm.
In any case I'll refrain from muddying the waters anymore as I'm just a rank amateur when it comes to naval history and architecture. That's yours and David's turf.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
55.72 is low but within the observed range for Temeraires. It would help to find out exactly which ship and drawing Ares based the sculpt on, as there are multiple draughts at Greenwich and that doesn't even get into what might be in the French naval archives.
And keep raising questions, they bring up matters worthy of discussion--along with possibly providing further data on Ares's underlying structural problems and the effort to diagnose and fix them. Right now, about all we really know is that SOMETHING is broken over there at the CAD-model-creation level.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Jim, main is not the Weather Deck, on SOL's it's the Lower Gun Deck. That may be part of the measurement problem...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I'm no expert either, but I would have thought that working in 1000th scale would have made it easier when working in meters.
ie: 50 meters = 50 millimeters
I did a lookup on threedecks on ships from the classes and did a quick measure with digital verniers on upperdecks (give or take due to sails) so I hope I'm fairly close.
Swan 29m 31mm
Amazon 38m 38mm
Concorde 44m 43mm
Hebe 46m 45mm
Bellona 51m 53mm
Nepomuceno* 54m 48mm
Temeraire 56m 56mm
Umpire 58m 56mm
Meregildos 59m 50mm
Ocean 64m 60mm
Victory 56m 58mm
Constitution 53m 59mm
* I took an average of 53 -55
There are some very interesting comparisons.
Now I'm not looking for perfection but something does seem to have gone wrong with the latest Spanish ships in relation to scale.
Good evening, this is my first post, and I am no expert too.
I finally had the opportunity to hold in my hands a minigildos (PdA).
The first impression is positive. Nice sculpting, nice colors and a nice stern sculpt, but…
As you already noticed the scale is not 1:1000. They don’t fit with the other 1st rates.
Most likely also the other 1st rates are not perfect scale models, to me length and beam are not 1:1000 (they are smaller) but are a reasonable representation of the real McCoy and, most important, they are consistent.
For me too, according to the info I found, compared to the British 1st rates, they should be, for consistency, a little longer (2mm), while the beam should be more or less the same. They also sit too low on the water.
According to me and my “consistency” rule, to sail with glory, the meregildos' hull should have been:
• Lenght 57mm (at waterline, they are only 50) (If more than 57 they would have been too close to the French 120)
• Beam 15mm (at waterline, they are only 13)
They are also shorter than a 74 of which they share the masts.
I personally don’t like this choice; I would have also preferred furled curses. I also don’t like the absence of guns on the Quarterdeck and Forecastle as on the previous models. I am not looking for perfection too, just consistency.
What to say, they don’t offer an imposing view, they are simply disappointing. I am waiting to see “live” a Nepumeceno, maybe the minigildos will sit together well with the nepuminiceno in a Spanish fleet, as long as you see them from a distance and they don’t sail ICW the Argonauta.
Alan, part of that is you're measuring too high--the Main Deck, which is what is always used for length unless otherwise noted, is usually pretty close to the waterline. (On SOL's and two-deck cruisers like Portland it's the lower deck, on frigates and smaller it's the deck BELOW the gun deck. Maybe waterline measurements would be a better "baseline" to work from for measuring minis...
Franco, you just coined a new nickname! :) "Minigildos": An undersized, wrong-scale miniature.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I have an idea! How about that Minigildos can only be hit at long range since they look so far away...
Haha, I like it
Measuring based on an SJN rather than Bahama, both SGN111 and 112 appear to be 1/1200, or 5/6 the size they should be. Somebody tell Rory he got some ships from Ares in his scale!
Measuring 112 as Bahama, the disparity is a little smaller but still there.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I was thinking of only sailing them in the background Dobbs.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Only just seen this. I still look in time to time. Nice one D.B. I must say I'm sorry that you all have a problem with a long awaited for model. It is not fair that you are all let down with size of the model. It's no joke for you all.
Be safe
Rory
Understood, but I wanted to measure a surface that I'd get better readings on between the two ships (I only have a metal straight edge).
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Greetings Franco and welcome to the Anchorage. Thanks also for your input.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
LOL. It's all about perspective!
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
That's the way I see it too Jim.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I would also like to Join Jim in welcoming you to the Anchorage Franco, and thank you for your input on this somewhat vexing mistake in the scales of our long awaited Spanish First Rates, which they most assuredly arn't.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Can some one put up a picture of the spa ish first rates next to the other nations first rates?
Hugh, see post 68 in this thread.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
oh wow, its tiny! can some one put some pictures of them next to one of the british 3rds?
I can't see any of the pictures. Does this mean that all of Wave 3 is 1/1200 scale? I have been thinking that the hulls of the Portland and Artesien look smaller than they should next to my British 74's.
Comparing the Portland and Artesien to a Hebe frigate leaves me unsatisfied too. An Artesien weighed in at 1200 tons, a Portland at 1000, and a Hebe at 700, and yet the Hebe miniature looks more substantial than both of the new minis?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks