Disturbing trend shipmates.

[William Bush]

Some thoughts from the perspective of someone new to SoG but not new to gaming:

1. Appeal of SoG:
Why did I buy the game? The ships looked good when I happended on an ongoing game at a games fair. Secondly, I liked the movement concept. Thirdly, the rules range from easy (Basic Game) to straightforward (Standard/Advanced).


2. Pricing:
The Starter Set (I got it for 70 or 80 Euros, can't remember) is a tad less than double of what you pay for a standard "Euro Game". As the SoG player base seems to be mainly around 50 years of age, this is usually not the biggest issue as throughout life this is the period in which people have probably the best "spending power". Additional ships packs seem - in part - somewhat pricey to me: Between 20 to 25 Euros for an HMS Victory is something. After all, the miniatures are plastic and not pewter. Of course, there is the "standard" paint job in which the models come, which I reckon is applied manually. This might add to the price.

Compared to other games I play, overall, SoG is not pricey. Of course, it allows for sinking serious amounts of money into it, which might be especially true if you go into modifying ships, building terrain etc. Yet an ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) Core Module, of which there are 16, might cost you up to 240 US$. Current cost of a rulebook is close to 100 US$. So measuring ASL vs. SoG, the cost of a 'complete kit' of ASL is massive, for an admittedly much more extensive game.

But you could also pit SoG against other games: Magic - The Gathering for example. Its very business model makes it costly because at its core you "need" to buy stuff that you - don't need. Otherwise, no way to the rare and very rare important card, except if you pay outrageous prices on the secondary market.

Computergames anyone? Well, in the past, you bought a game and it was yours. Nowadays, you pay for subscriptions - whether you play the game or not. And many computer games are designed in a manner that urge you make repeated in-game purchases - for real money. Much money spent, but in the end, you own nothing. Opposed to that, every ship-pack you buy is yours.

Then there are numerous other hobbies which are not game related. Books, sports, you call it. If you add up the cumulative cost to maintain them, it is likely you'll find that games as SoG or even ASL cannot only compete but are cheaper overall and in the long run.
As long as you don't opt to travel to conventions during which you have to pay for hotels, food, getting there and back again. If you do that, however, then 80 Euros for a Starter Pack of SoG is not an issue.


3. Community:
Not many posts in the forum despite this being the place for the SoG-Nerds and rules gurus. Alas, I find it not surprising.
First of all, SoG is a niche game. The initial price might appear high for the young ones - currently, (as of Jan. 2023) I set it at 80 Euros for the Starter Box plus another 40 for an ocean map. They are prone to fall for an intial 40 Euros followed by an uncharted amount of In-App purchases which obfuscate the true cost. You don't "see" SoG anywhere - you have to stumble on it or actively have to search for games like it. So first access is not trivial. Next, the medium of a forum is - alas - considered outdated by many. One could say that the "Golden Days" of forums have passed. Facebook came and went, now it is Discord. For the purposes of the game, forums are better suited - especially as a resource with a chance of being structured on top of that. The younger ones do not "grow up" with forums any more, they don't even use FaceBook, the former "must have". Instead, forums are - in my experience - kept up by the old hands that know their worth and who are at the same time reluctant to chase, for good reason, after the newest App with the masses every two or three years. This is why forums eventually bleed out and lack fresh blood by influx of new and younger players. Despite still being the best tool to support a game as a resource to turn back to.

4. Support of the game by the manufacturer:
This is an issue. I bought the Starter Box, I bought a number of ship packs along with some other stuff (kind of recklessly without having seriously tried the game before). Very soon I realized, that I neede "Ship Mats" for actions with more that four vessels. Nowhere to be had (as of Jan. 2023). My first impression after browsing through this forum is, that the issue persists already for a couple of years. Despite extra "Ship Mats" are what I rate to be an essential component. Not good.

Well, of course, you can scan stuff, photoshop them, redo them from scratch better than the original - the typical nerd stuff. But this should not be required to lay your hand on the stuff you want.

In games with a long history and a not too small but dedicated player base, these issues can be overcome. Once more I draw on ASL as an example. The manufacturer for many years used to be very slow to publish new products or get core components which were out of stock back into print. People were waiting on some things for a decade. Unbearable as it was, some of the geeks and nerds (which I mean not derogatory but rather as a badge of honor) came up with solutions. They designed scenarios, they came up with extra rules the finally also created additional counters and boards. From humble beginnings, this turned into TPPs (Third Party Producers). This meant something of a grey zone regarding to copyright issues etc. In the event, it kept the game alive until the original manufacturer / its successor recovered. It was the TPPs which brought new innovations, some of which were incorporated by the official manufacturer this way or the other later. Today, there is what one could call a symbiotic relationship between the official manufacturer and TPPs. Of course, the people and designers behind scenarios are in some cases the same for the official manufacturer and TPPs, which both rely on the input of grognard dedicated players.

This is basically the same for SoG. I glean than the grognards around here have come up with rules for boats, booms, house-rules, and other things. They 'advise' Ares on ship types etc. They create new kit in the form of superior wind-roses and all sorts of stuff. In a way it might not be wrong to say that a core of grognard players have surpassed the original designers of the game. The "survival" of the game really rests with these grognards who keep the fire burning.

A danger could be, though, that the player base for SoG is too small, the period since SoG exists up until now too short to ensure long-term survival.


5. What can be done?
One would need to create visibility among the suspectible. Games fairs like Spiel in Essen, Origins in the US or smaller conventions of the right sort are places where you can get people prone to such games to get in contact with them. This is how I found out about the game.

Yet another time I will fall back on ASL to relate what I think to be an important observation:
Due to the insane complexity of ASL, it was often difficult to find opponents playing the game nearby. So eventually, ASL players which were savvy programmers developed a "virtual game board" that allowed people to play via the internet. No computer opponents, no AI. It would have to be two real persons communicating over a written log (then) and Skype or Discord (today) why shoving virtual counters across virtual boards. The framework for this is VASSAL (https://vassalengine.org/) which was originally created for VASL (Virtual ASL) but has turned over time into a platform for hundreds of virtual adaptations of "cardboard" games.

Today, among the ASL community, it is the common opinion that VASSAL/VASL has been vital for the continuing prosperity of the game. It costs nothing. It provides all 20,000 plus counters, all 100+ boards etc. It brings together opponents from all over the world who were often isolated before. It has been a pillar in forming a world-wide community. Practically, you can try the game there and will find grognards ready to teach you. They will make the game much more accessible because while playing you "see" which parts of the hundreds of pages of rules are vital in the beginning. And if newbies "draw blood", they buy the physical components of the game from the manufacturer. It is a great symbiosis.

In fact, after having bought SoG, my first reflex was to see if VASSAL supported a SoG module. Alas, there is none there. I found instructional youtube tutorials etc. but no "virtual playing environment" for SoG. Theoretically, what is possible for countless other games could become possible for SoG. What would be needed is a SoG grognard who happens to be savvy in programming and willing to develop a SoG module for VASSAL. Maybe chances for this and to get things running are slim. But it might be a path to save SoG from long-term oblivion.


Lt. Bush

[Bligh]

Thanks for your evaluation of the game and its base.
Some of these shortcomings have been mentioned before, but not quite so comprehensively in one place as this.
I would welcome comments from any other shipmates on this.

Rob.

[Mengjiao]

Thanks for your evaluation of the game and its base.
Some of these shortcomings have been mentioned before, but not quite so comprehensively in one place as this.
I would welcome comments from any other shipmates on this.

Rob.

Well, I just got here. It looks like a reasonably active board. And then -- why did I begin getting into Sails of Glory, rather than say, Black Seas? Or for that matter, since I haven't played with miniatures since the 1980s, why any miniatures?
So: 1) miniatures are different and fun to photograph. (I have been playing boardgames and cardboard naval games like stations manned and ready using Clash of Arms Admiralty trilogy counters)
2) I like the 1/1000 scale
3) for one thing it fits on a few big tables just fine
4) I like the chit-oriented rules and the visual side of the game pieces (mats, cards etc.)
5) I like the fact that the available ships go back into the 1760s
6) I'm able to find things like used core starter sets in the US...I did some repairs already since "used" can mean slightly busted.
7) Black seas -- i guess in the end it was too big and glossy
8) i guess I don't mind minor repairs and whatnot
9) I play solo and the battles have been surprising in fun ways

[Bligh]

Firstly, welcome to the Anchorage Peter, and thank you for your very useful comments. With the production of so many printed ships to fill the gap left by the shortage created by Ares and the problems with China and its production policy, we are in a better place now than pre Covid. If Ares provide only Starter sets, those of us with any interest in painting our own ships and a few modelling skills dan just about provide any ship and coastline items that we want. Cards can be home printed and modified to suit the needs of the user, as long as we do not try and sell them on to third parties.
When you look at the AAR section, and the Chippy Shop, or the How To on the Home page you will see what a diverse set of shipmates you have. Take that with our history buffs, actual sailors, including one Naval Architect amongst the crew and you have access to a great deal of information.
All I can suggest is that you sign in on the welcome aboard page, stow your gear, have a wander around to get your bearings and then join us in the wardroom for a virtual beer or three and a good chinwag.
May you sail with a fair wind and a willing foe.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

I have to say that for me there are two things that I want out of a game. I want beautiful models and a good sailing feeling of the game.

To me the black sea ships look bad. I first saw the brig and frigate set, and having sailed brigs I didn't really get into the miniatures. They have the wrong shape of the hull and are cartoony with oversized ship's names and figureheads. The paper sails makes my blood boil. I have even had discussions with Henry about his 3D printing sails. I really hate the 2D look of sails. When you put a piece of fabric into the wind it billows. It forms a double curved surface. You can never replicate that with paper or etched metal sheets (unless you use a mushroom smithing anvil thing). Thankfully Simon's 3D printable sails set is good. The size may be a problem if you want to play big battles but may fit small one on one frigate action quite well.

Henry has revised his sail and mast set several times and it is much better than the original free version. I also found another set specifically for the Black Seas frigate and brig which is a big improvement. Although in fairness the cut of sails did change during the period leading to much less of a billowing look once fully set. I agree with you on the Warlord ships, frankly the rules are a bit "hollywood" as well, but that is true of most of their rules. Having said that I have seen some very well-done Black Seas ships. For example:

https://jjwargames.blogspot.com/sear...All%20at%20Sea

He also uses a modified version of the Too Fat Lardies "Kiss Me Hardy" rules for squadron and fleet battles. KMH works well for a games convention where you may find miniatures gamers put off by all the chits used by SoG.

Some thoughts from the perspective of someone new to SoG but not new to gaming:

snip

Computergames anyone? Well, in the past, you bought a game and it was yours. Nowadays, you pay for subscriptions - whether you play the game or not. And many computer games are designed in a manner that urge you make repeated in-game purchases - for real money. Much money spent, but in the end, you own nothing. Opposed to that, every ship-pack you buy is yours.



In fact, after having bought SoG, my first reflex was to see if VASSAL supported a SoG module. Alas, there is none there. I found instructional youtube tutorials etc. but no "virtual playing environment" for SoG. Theoretically, what is possible for countless other games could become possible for SoG. What would be needed is a SoG grognard who happens to be savvy in programming and willing to develop a SoG module for VASSAL. Maybe chances for this and to get things running are slim. But it might be a path to save SoG from long-term oblivion.


Lt. Bush

First as to the VASSAL issue. I think that platform caters more to boardgames, as you noted for ASL. I think miniatures gamers use Table Top Simulator as a virtual platform instead and I believe there are modules (free) for SoG. TTS can be had for $15 or so on sale and most of the modules are free. I played a virtual battle of Trafalgar during the pandemic using Osprey's Fighting Sail rules.

Second, I will quibble with you about computer games. I have yet to see a subscription based wargame and I have way too many games in my Steam account. You may be thinking of the large MMO games which are free but to get ahead you can buy a premium account; World of Tanks is the big example. In the PC wargame space you do sometimes get DLC or modules that you can choose to buy after the base game. For example, a game called "Valor and Victory" based on a board game, a simplified ASL if you will, is set in the Normandy campaign but you can buy a module for the Arnhem campaign or Stalingrad. The base game is $20 and the modules half that or less.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/9...alor__Victory/

However, most games are still a one off purchase and are far less than a comparable board game. For an example related to SOG you have "Ultimate Admiral Age of Sail" which offers a campaign game as well as tactical fleet sailing set during the American Revolution complete for about $30. There are exceptions of course, you might be familiar with Gary Grisby's War in the East2 $80- expensive for a PC game, but you get a very detailed complex game for the money. Bottom line though is that you own all the games and of course they take far less storage space! (Thinking about my bins of 1980s vintage games - including ASL! )

[William Bush]

First as to the VASSAL issue. I think that platform caters more to boardgames, as you noted for ASL. I think miniatures gamers use Table Top Simulator as a virtual platform instead and I believe there are modules (free) for SoG. TTS can be had for $15 or so on sale and most of the modules are free. I played a virtual battle of Trafalgar during the pandemic using Osprey's Fighting Sail rules.

This is a good point.

In fact, I do own a couple of hundred pewter miniatures which I used in the Pen&Paper roleplaying context. But these were always only a few at a time. I remember one day I contemplated to paint them, but when I did the math of how long it would take to do it well, I recoiled. In general, I have more fun playing than doing handicraft and painting. This is probably why I have never played any table-top games as of yet. In turn it did not occur to me that a platform such as VASSAL might indeed exist for table-tops as well

I might check out Table Top Simulator for SoG, thanks for the lead.

Second, I will quibble with you about computer games. I have yet to see a subscription based wargame and I have way too many games in my Steam account. You may be thinking of the large MMO games which are free but to get ahead you can buy a premium account; World of Tanks is the big example. In the PC wargame space you do sometimes get DLC or modules that you can choose to buy after the base game.

Yes, I was thinking of those large MMOs. I dropped out of computer games many years ago when the hype had everything go to "real time" instead of round-based. I hated the hectic rush.


Lt. Bush

[DeRuyter]

By far the best support I've experienced is by Firelock games. Sure, skirmish level pirate games are bound to attract lots of players but their stuff, especially ships, are expensive. Still, that doesn't seem to stop anyone. Firelock's "corporate" Facebook has 24K followers. There are 7,500 in the 28mm skirmish group, "Blood & Plunder - Buccaneering across the Spanish Main". Fair enough, but they also have "Oak & Iron", 1/600 battles - closer to SoG; and that Facebook gamer group has 2,500. Plus there are a few supplementary groups like "Blood & Pigment", etc. that provide articles and Youtube videos analyzing factions, tactics, how to scratch build stuff, etc. That's just to show what is possible despite. I think the key is a critical mass of passionate people. Full credit to Firelock for building that critical mass and keeping it going.

I would echo this sentiment. I have the good fortune to attend conventions where Firelock further supports their games with tournaments. The lead designer Mike Tunez is an approachable guy and wants to get the history right. While the game is "pirates" it is not "Disney pirates".

This is a good point.

In fact, I do own a couple of hundred pewter miniatures which I used in the Pen&Paper roleplaying context. But these were always only a few at a time. I remember one day I contemplated to paint them, but when I did the math of how long it would take to do it well, I recoiled. In general, I have more fun playing than doing handicraft and painting. This is probably why I have never played any table-top games as of yet. In turn it did not occur to me that a platform such as VASSAL might indeed exist for table-tops as well

I might check out Table Top Simulator for SoG, thanks for the lead.




Yes, I was thinking of those large MMOs. I dropped out of computer games many years ago when the hype had everything go to "real time" instead of round-based. I hated the hectic rush.


Lt. Bush

Totally agree with you on the movement to RTS games. An outgrowth of the fast twitch shooter games like COD. I think there is a new trend in importing hex based board games to the PC and even turn based strategy games in general. As an ASL player you may be interested in this trend. I mentioned one, another good tactical squad based game is "Lock n Load Tactical Digital. You buy the base game and then modules depending on what era or front interests you.

https://store.lnlpublishing.com/

As I noted before Slitherine/Matrix Games is a big publisher in the turn based wargame genre.

You bring up the advantage to the prepainted SoG ships or WoG aircraft (also the Star Wars models from FFG) in that it appeals to the gamer who does not want spend time modelling. Miniature gamers who don't have time to paint often will get pro painters to do it for them, but of course this raises the costs tremendously, especially with ship models. The Ares ship pack are a bargain in this respect!

3d printing is becoming more of a force in the hobby (it is a hobby in and of itself frankly!). Printing and selling the ships is not a problem because they are historical models. Unlike say Warhammer or Star Wars models - although I have seen a lot of models that look suspiciously like 40k space marines or Imperial Storm Troopers with different names. If anyone is going after copyright on this, it would be Games Workshop! As to ship mats and other accessories that may be problematic. Personally, I like using an erasable ship record like the one Dobbs made versus the chits and ship mats from Ares.

[Bligh]

We generally use modified mats faced with transperseal for shows which speeds up the action by dispensing with chips totally, and the whiteboard marker pen damage indications can be wiped after each game. It is also my habit of producing mats for my individual fortifications. Here are a couple of examples.

Rob.

[William Bush]

We generally use modified mats faced with transperseal for shows which speeds up the action by dispensing with chips totally, and the whiteboard marker pen damage indications can be wiped after each game. It is also my habit of producing mats for my individual fortifications. Here are a couple of examples.

Rob.

These look very nice!

Especially against the background of unavailable Ship Mats, this approach seems to be a sensible alternative.

Are there some templates available for a default "Ship" or "Battery" that would allow one to edit and create one's own for the Ship Packs missing Ship Mats for download anywhere?

Lt. Bush

[Bligh]

Thanks for the Rep William and PM sent.
Rob.