Clipper's clippers?

[Dobbs]

My understanding is that a schooner (or any multi-mast rig) can't sail quite as close to the wind as a sloop, and is slow on the dead run, but is optimized for maximum speed on a beam reach.

Steve, Bear in mind that while Swan class sloops of war are called sloops, they are actually ship-rigged sloops (sloop being just the navy's way of classifying them as an unrated vessel), and a schooner could definitely outsail a ship-rigged sloop to windward.

I have been pondering how the card might change based on the schooner's mast, but on my schooner, the mainmast only a mm or so aft of the Thorn's original location. I suppose that means that even using the original unmodified Thorn card she'd be able to sail closer to the wind...

I think I'm going to go back on my choice of the C deck and stick with the G deck.

[Bligh]

In that case I will hold back on any further modifications to my cards, and wait until your debate reaches some final conclusions. This is all most illuminating and far more complex than anything with which I could have come up.
Rob.

[Clipper1701]

In that case I will hold back on any further modifications to my cards, and wait until your debate reaches some final conclusions. This is all most illuminating and far more complex than anything with which I could have come up.
Rob.

Me too matey! I will wait till the pros who knows sort out the details, meanwhile I am deep into rigging and reading the history of the bigger Clipper Ships, fascinating! Beginning to understand the impact of steam for good and bad . . . still hope to do a windjammer cruise someday . . . drawn to the sea by wind and sail . . .ahhhhhh

[Bligh]

As soon as they decide Dave, I will knock out a set for all four of your ships.
Rob.

[Clipper1701]

As soon as they decide Dave, I will knock out a set for all four of your ships.
Rob.

Thanks so much! My graphic days are pre-digital. My Adobe Illustrator is still in the box : )

[surfimp]

Steve, Bear in mind that while Swan class sloops of war are called sloops, they are actually ship-rigged sloops (sloop being just the navy's way of classifying them as an unrated vessel), and a schooner could definitely outsail a ship-rigged sloop to windward.

I understand this (and understood it well, before your reply) but am not sure what I am to take from it?

I have been pondering how the card might change based on the schooner's mast, but on my schooner, the mainmast only a mm or so aft of the Thorn's original location. I suppose that means that even using the original unmodified Thorn card she'd be able to sail closer to the wind...

Sure, with an unmodified Thorn card, she'd sail closer to the wind, but she'd be in orange...

The goal of my effort was to significantly extend the green into close reach range, while still keeping some orange in the closehauled range just before irons. That change would tremendously increase the schooner's windward performance vs that of the Thorn's original... it would go much faster, much closer to the wind, as it'd be in the "green zone" in a wide arc around beam reach.

The reasoning for having a bit of orange between green and red was because, as I understand it, the closehauled tack is one of the slower points of sail, with the greatest amount of leeway induced. So it didn't seem reasonable to go from green directly to red without some intermediate orange at the extreme closehauled angle.

I also didn't change the red zone from your original Enterprise card, although in my original conception the red would be the extent of the bow end of the card and not extend down the sides at all. However, while I think that close angle would possibly be acceptable for a true sloop, for a multimasted ship like a schooner, ketch or yawl, my understanding is that they are incapable of sailing quite as close to the wind as a single masted sloop-rigged ship/boat.

I don't have first-hand experience but if that is the case, it might be an argument that either the Thorn's original irons range is not wide enough, and/or that it would be appropriate, within game terms, to provide a very narrow red zone for a schooner because, relative to the ship-rigged vessels, it would be able to sail that much close to the wind.

I suspect that the Thorn's red zone is too small, and that it should be bigger, but in any event it is an official product so we have to work from there. And so, I have updated the card (below) with the narrow red zone I originally considered but did not include in my first pass, for the reasons stated above.

I'm not sure I understand how my card displeased you, or if you were actually displeased at all. I kind of read it that way, but I'm certainly not looking for a fight, and I prefaced my effort by noting that it was extremely rough and just a brainstorm.

In any event, I was just trying to come up with something that matches my real-world experience as a (novice) sailor (entirely in sloops, and not sloops-of-war :p ) as well as aligning in a generalized sense with what I've read of schooner performance at various points of sail.

Here's a revised version. I've narrowed the red zone at the bow and also increased the purple zone (where, per your idea, Dobbs, you'd play your current sail setting -1)

[Bligh]

I am still interested in this debate chaps. it is all very enlightening on points of sailing.
Rob.

[surfimp]

I am still interested in this debate chaps. it is all very enlightening on points of sailing.

With all due respect - "debate" makes it sound much more contentious than I feel comfortable with. I believe we are simply trying to introduce mechanics for fore-and-aft rigged ships that do not currently exist in the game, and we have the best of intentions in doing so. Any of these things would need to be tested and really, discussing card artwork without the ship model (and its main mast position) represented is really the most broad and vague of first efforts. We're feeling about in the dark for something that seems right, but play testing and a consistent model would be mandatory for making anything like a defined card for these vessels.

For that matter, I am very much a novice and have much to learn about sailing. I have been fortunate to have once sailed aboard the replica of the America down in San Diego, and raised her sails, and spoken a bit with her crew, but that is as much as I have personally experienced in terms of schooners. She was quite fast on a beam reach, for what it's worth, but really I'm at best guessing as to what would be appropriate.

Summary: it's a discussion amongst peers, not a debate :)

[Bligh]

I am sorry if my use of semantics has disturbed you Steve. I was using the word as defined in the Cambridge English Dictionary."debate meaning, definition, what is debate: (a) serious discussion of a subject in which many people take part."
I in no way intended to upset anyone, nor suggest that this was in any way a less than harmonious discussion. Simply that it was serious to me as a way of gleaning information about a n area of seamanship about which I am sadly ignorant. However little experience you may have on schooners, it is 100% more than my own.
I hope that I have not put you off continuing to help me get a better understanding of how to handle one of these vessels, albeit a small plastic one.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Just had a trial run with your simulator program Steve, and I found it very informative.
I will be revisiting periodically I'm sure.
Rob.