Naval Action Ship Diagram

[Newtzilla]

Figured I would move this to it's own thread. For reference, I grab the thumbnails from the in-game interface (example below) and then scale them according to the size of the in game 3d models. It's surprisingly hard to find length information that you can use to easily scale profiles. I've attached an updated stacked version as requested by DB as well as the powerpoint I use to arrange all the items before copying to an image.

The only ships in the game I don't currently have images for are:
Admiraal de Ruyter
Leopard
Endymion
Diana
L'Hermione


NavalActionShips.zip

[Bligh]

You should be able to find the sizes of all the British ships from First Rates down to 74s in my threads on ships in the History Forum. I am finishing the 74s in the next month or so and then moving on to the 60 and 64 gunners.
Rob.

[Newtzilla]

The main problem I was running into is that most lengths are recorded for either the gundeck or keel and those are pretty hard to explicitly measure on a small profile image. For relative scaling, I was using the tip of the bowsprit to the transom to give me easily identifiable points and the most amount of resolution.

[Bligh]

I don't think that sort of information is readily available Alex, and certainly not for all the ships.
DB is the chap most likely to know all about the finer tuneing.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Alex, there's a cheat I use on the Greenwwich draughts we use at Ares.

1. Instead of measuring the ship, I measure the entire scan. If a drawing is described as 1588mm wide and 1/48 scale, 1588*48 means if you enlarged the drawing until the ship was actual size, the sheet would be 76,224mm (or 250 feet for a 190' three-decker!) from one edge to the other.
2. From there, I convert to a constant Target Scale--in this application, converting it to game scale for Sails at 1/1000 means I need to shrink the example drawing from Step 1 down to an image size of 76mm.
3. From there, I crop out everything but the side profile, and everything below the waterline.

Catch is, this ONLY works when you have a scan of a drawing with known sheet dimensions and known scale to work from.

From there, because Windows likes to bugger scaling on-screen (this is the part Ares has trouble with, why waves 3 and 4 are undersize!) you can't just put a ruler on your screen and measure off the image on it, you have to print a hardcopy and measure on that. In these cases, I prefer to go through the process again from the raw scan and rescale to 1/500, then divide my measurements off the printout by two, or smaller ships to 1/250 and divide by four.

[Bligh]

Very cunning DB. I knew you would have a solution.
Rob.

[Newtzilla]

DB, that does seem like a solid way to operate if you have scale drawings. I can only imagine the frustration of something getting lost in digital translation at the very end :-(. My image is all done in the scale of Trinc as described below. I could correlate this back to real world dimensions using an accurate scale drawing of one of the ships in the list, but haven't needed to take that step yet.



Also thank you for requesting the stacked version. I have been staring at it (it's my new desktop wallpaper) and I definitely like the style more than the original.

[Diamondback]

Very similar approach, actually! :) You should know that Agamemnon's a Third Rate though, 60 guns is the cutoff.

[Newtzilla]

Good catch!, I took some artistic liberties with the rates based on how they interact in the game, but the Aggie is one I didn't change, they have it as the largest fourth rate in the game (probably for balance reasons). Similarly the Rattvisan at 60 guns I think was also historically a 3rd rate.

The Constitution is a 3rd rate in game, but just like in real life is hard to compare alongside standard SOL.
The Redoutable is also a 3rd rate as it was categorized in real life, but its carries 24pd on its upper deck which was only true for 2 ships in the Téméraire class. With the heavier broadside in competes much more with the 2nd rates.

Maybe I have more rearranging to do :-).

[Diamondback]

If it helps, of the three rates of 74 in British service, Temeraires were considered Middlings--large size but 32#/18# batteries like a Common, while Larges were similar size to Middling (or bigger) with 32#/24#. Cassard and Veteran, the two 24# ships, are considered Large 74's.

[Newtzilla]

I think I need to re-calibrate my thinking a bit. Would you classify the Bucentaure and St Pavel (https://threedecks.org/index.php?dis..._ship&id=21416) as second rates? Neither had a full 3rd gun deck, but were close to 90 guns depending on configuration.

[Diamondback]

Hard cap for a Third was 88 IIRC. These Rates are also not an actual bore-count, but a nominal rating at design used to set crew size. A captain was free to round up as many extra guns as he could make fit and pay for on his own dime, but the Admiralty weren't paying to allot any more manpower to run 'em.

1st - 100+
2nd - 90-98 (incl Sviatoi Pavel)
3rd - 60-88 (incl Tonnant/Bucentaure nominal-80s, most of which were frequently upped to 84, sometimes 88)
4th - 50-58
5th - 30-48
6th - 20-28
UNR - 18/less and civilian merchants/EIM regardless of size/armament

Technically, by our reconstruction of Jones's intent Bonhomme Richard would have been a 3rd Rate 64 if he could have gotten all the guns he wanted, but a very small and weak one.

[Bligh]

Similarly the Rattvisan at 60 guns I think was also historically a 3rd rate.

"Three Decks" has it down as a 3rd Rate in their lists Alex.
Rob.

[Newtzilla]

The allotted man power is a good way of thinking about it. It helps explain why the Bucentaure although it is a 3rd rate, with 866 men is not that far off from even the Victory. Similarly, on three decks, the Sviatoi Pavel is listed with a complement of 1030, but in game is set up much lighter with only 82 guns and 800 crew, putting it more in line with the Buc. Both of them are much more capable than something like a Bellona at 550-650. Not to argue with history, but it seems like the 2nd rate classification might have been more useful if included something like 80 or 82 to 98 guns.

[DeRuyter]

As a long time Naval Action player I would be cautious using the game ratings. Alex you mentioned game balance which is a correct assessment. The most glaring example is USS Constitution rated as a third rate. She was originally rated as a 4th in with HMS Agamemnon and Wasa (a later one of course). Now there is the HMS Leopard and a Russian ship Rattisivan. In game Constitution has the hull points of a 3rd rate, but not the broadside weight. They have also played around with the historical armaments for game play, essentially giving carronades to ships that never mounted them. That's ok, but recently they upgunned some of the unrated ships to carry heavier carronades resulting in a lot of complaints. The Ontario (Snow in game) can now mount 32lb carronades and a ship the size of the Lnyx can mount 24 lb carronades. I would also be skeptical of those drawings for the port UI, not sure those are to any scale.

[Newtzilla]

I like to perform the mental exercises. In the near past I always thought of the in game bucc, redoubt and pavel as being 2nd rates. However, after discussing it here, their in game stats and armaments I think closer align to large 3rd rates and the Christian being the only proper 2nd rate. I definitely take all their ratings with a grain of salt, but you get a different perspective on the class system after sailing around and battling in the ships. Most notably how drastically different a small and large 3rd rate are (e.g. Agamemnon vs Bucentaure).

I think everyone was in agreement that the up-sized carros on unrated ships is a bit ridiculous, but also an interesting thought process since historically I'm not sure any of those ships would have had access to those guns even if they could/wanted to fit them.

For the scaling, the port UI stuff is definetely not to any scale which is why I had to reference the in game models. For all his faults, I do trust that the developer creates fairly accurate 3d models.

[Bligh]

It always amazes me, how designers add these non historical things without thinking of the consequences.
I can hear the Captain bemoaning his fate after the Admiralty inflict the changes on his ship.
She now fires like a third rate but handles like a brick, and we dare not fire a full broadside for fear od tearing her apart.
Rob.