Xebec Sailing Characteristics

[Dobbs]

With the interest building in Algerian pirates, I've started exploring the sailing characteristics of xebecs in depth. Let me tell you, lateen sail handling is not simple!

So far, I've decided to use my schooner sailing arcs and rules as the base movement, with changes to reflect the lateen rig.

First of note, it seems that on a xebec all yards would pretty much always be on the same side on all masts all the time. It would be a real trick to swing one yard to the front of the mast to run "wing and wing", the weakest point of sail. The sail would have power in it the whole time while being moved. I think that xebec sailors probably just accepted that one sail would press against the mast when wing and wing.

Second, tacking is the only way to swing the yards from one side of the mast to the other. This wouldn't work jibing or wearing because the sail would have the wind in it while trying to swing the boom behind the mast. It sounds too exciting to me!

A crew could choose to tack without switching the yards, but then the sails would backwind against the masts. This is acceptable, but the boat wouldn't point as high (sail as close to the wind) because of the lack of sail shape.

More to come...

[Naharaht]

I am interested in the results of your research, Dobbs, because I own a 1:1000 scale xebec from Shapeways.

[Bligh]

You must have a crystal ball Dobbs! The next thing after I completed my harbour project was going to ask you about the sailing qualities of Lateen sailing and if it could be reduced to a simple formulea. It seems from my scant reading on the subject that the one advantage they seemed to have over square riggers was the ability to sail closer to the wind. I look forward to your further research and hope that it will provide me with a basis to go on better tan just using the catch all of Sloop cards for movement.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

For all single gundeck ships I use a house rule that each turn spent playing a red card reduces the ship's speed by one when it exits the red arc.

Unlike square riggers or schooners, xebecs have yards that pass the masts. If they are on the upwind side of the mast, it negatively impacts the sail shape.

I suggest that for a xebec, if the player wants to dip the yards while tacking, to allow the ship to be on an advantaged tack on the other side of the wind, that the ship reduces its speed by two. This is a laborsome effort, involving bringing the forward end of the yard behind the mast.

A player can choose to tack fast, losing only one speed, but would then have the yards on the wrong side of the masts and would have to use the disadvantaged sailing angles and carry the disadvantaged card until tacking back or luffing up to correct it.

Jibing or wearing will always result in moving from advantaged to disadvantaged or vice a versa since I think it unlikely that the yards could be dipped with the wind behind the xebec.

[Bligh]

That worked very well for me Dobbs, now I just need to find a suitable deck for the speed of those ships.
Have you any information to offer either on that or the firepower of the Xebec. Most of the ones I have seem to be much of a size with a Sloop. The one Frigate matches more the Corvette size being in the smaller scale. This is an area of knowledge where I am sinking fast. I would be happy to be just dog paddling.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Cards, Xebec Disadvantaged Tack.pdf

Here are two files I created for xebecs; the first is a base card for a typical xebec. The second is the advantaged/disadvantaged cards that get folded in half and turned to indicate the disadvantaged tack if necessary.

The sailing angles pictured are for use with my more realistic sailing angles. If anyone wants angles more in line with the original game let me know.

I can post the card as a PDF if that is more helpful.

If anyone has examples of flags for the Barbary Pirates, please send me a link or a file and I will change the flag on the base card.

[Dobbs]

Explanation of Dipping: On square riggers, whenever the sails are drawing, the yards are on the downwind side of the masts. With Xebecs, this is not always the case. If the yard is on the downwind side, the sail billows in the traditional, dramatic way. But, a xebec can use its sails with the yard on the windward side. The sail then presses against the mast yielding a less than perfect result, but still functional (the disadvantaged tack).

When tacking, a xebec crew may choose to keep the yard on the downwind side, but to do so requires the forward tip of the yard to be moved behind the mast. This is dipping.

A gaff sail (the sails on schooners) is like a lateen without the portion sticking past the mast and therefore is much faster to tack. It just happens, no dipping required.

[Bligh]

Thank you so much Dobbs. That card is so simple to understand in the flurry of action it will be a boon. Maybe I should have said boom there.
On reflection it would be good if you could put all your superb cards into your photo album as a group. Then anyone can access them without bothering you if you just mention it to them when they ask.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

Explanation of Dipping: On square riggers, whenever the sails are drawing, the yards are on the downwind side of the masts. With Xebecs, this is not always the case. If the yard is on the downwind side, the sail billows in the traditional, dramatic way. But, a xebec can use its sails with the yard on the windward side. The sail then presses against the mast yielding a less than perfect result, but still functional (the disadvantaged tack).

When tacking, a xebec crew may choose to keep the yard on the downwind side, but to do so requires the forward tip of the yard to be moved behind the mast. This is dipping.

A gaff sail (the sails on schooners) is like a lateen without the portion sticking past the mast and therefore is much faster to tack. It just happens, no dipping required.

Dobbs, if I remember correctly on the Kalmar Nyckel we used to furl the lateen sail on the mizzen before dipping (when that was done which was not often). I would suspect they'd have to furl the sail on a large xebec rig before dipping. I have seen some videos of traditional lateen rigging Mediterranean fishing craft but I am not sure they are shown tacking. I may have posted one in the forum somewhere.

[Dobbs]

Dobbs, if I remember correctly on the Kalmar Nyckel we used to furl the lateen sail on the mizzen before dipping (when that was done which was not often). I would suspect they'd have to furl the sail on a large xebec rig before dipping. I have seen some videos of traditional lateen rigging Mediterranean fishing craft but I am not sure they are shown tacking. I may have posted one in the forum somewhere.

Good to hear from you, Eric! Near as I can tell from my research, you don't have to furl to tack. I would not say that I am an expert though, just a curious observer. I have been watching dhow racing videos for sail handling clews, oops, clues

That might work in jibing, but not in a combat or chase situation. I suspect that if a a captain was on an advantaged tack and wanted to be advantaged on the other tack, he would choose to tack instead of jibe as a timesaver. I have seen a lot of examples of lateen yards on the windward (disadvantaged) side of the mast.

I did see one interesting video from Zanzibar where a crew apparently jibed the sail like an asymmetrical spinnaker, letting the clew fly toward the bow then trimming it in on the other tack. The camera didn't show the yard, but the yard must have gone vertical during that to get it on the right side of the mast.

[Dobbs]

I made a mockup to explore this. To make it easier to follow, I've turned the pictures 90 degrees to the left. For those trying to follow, that means when I say right, I mean top. Rob, if you can fix my pictures it will all be a lot clearer.





Here, the boat would be on a starboard tack, with the bow to the right. With the sail drawing, the clew would be in the bottom left. The tack is at the bottom of the yard to the right.





To jibe or wear, as the boat turns directly downwind, the crew casts off the port sheet, letting the clew go forward past the mast. At the same time, a crewmember trims the tack in tight, making the yard go vertical.






As the wind crosses the stern and the boat comes on to a port tack, the yard will naturally want to be on the leeward side of the mast, and the starboard sheet is trimmed in as the tack is eased.

Piece of cake! Of course, this is all guesswork from watching YouTube videos. I have never sailed a dipping lateen rig.

My conclusion is that a xebec jibing or wearing can go from an advantaged tack to an advantaged tack. I retract my original rule.

Aahh! I take that back! This only works on a boat without shrouds!

[Bligh]

How's that Dobbs?
Rob

[Dobbs]

Thanks, Rob!

For me, it's fun pondering how sailors may have used their machinery. I hope it's not too dry to share. As I was typing, I realized how it could sound like a bunch of gibberish.

In conclusion, the yard can only be swung advantaged tack to advantaged tack behind the mast, or when tacking on a boat with standing rigging (shrouds).

[Bligh]

It seems to do the trick.
Even I understand it now from your Model. Before I knew the theory and that your cards worked, but on my daily 14,000 steps I have had time to ponder as I paced my quaterdeck, and could never quite grasp a mental picture of the process in my head, so you have cleared it up superbly for myself at any rate. Now I will have to go back to playing mental chess games whilst I walk.
Rob.

[Bligh]

I have now picked this flag as my Algerine Squadron card Dobbs. if you will be kind enough to add it I will be very greatful.
Rob.

[Vagabond]

This is something I'd thought about, how to get the sail to the other side of the mast, and you got me looking at internet videos.

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr...a-dhow.264272/

This is a link I found to the YBW site, the last entry makes it sound as if they would wear rather than tack, efectivly letting the sail fly forward and bringing it manually around to the other side. I can't quite get it straight in my head, I might need a model to try it on.

Dobbs you may have come across the YBW forum, my opinion is that you should take everything with a pinch of salt, it's rare to find someone who has knowledge rather than opinion although they convey opinion as knowledge.

[Vagabond]

I've read a bit more and am coming to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all. It depends on mast size, boom size and sail size and matbe lateen sails are used differently on different boats in different psrts of the world and comparing the Indian Ocean sailing ships with the Mediterranean ones might lead to wrong conclusions.
A typical case of the more I know the less I understand.

[Dobbs]

I've read a bit more and am coming to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all. It depends on mast size, boom size and sail size and matbe lateen sails are used differently on different boats in different psrts of the world and comparing the Indian Ocean sailing ships with the Mediterranean ones might lead to wrong conclusions.
A typical case of the more I know the less I understand.

I too have come to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all. The wearing you describe is what I was trying to show with my mock-up, but it doesn't work if the mast is not freestanding. The yard would foul the rigging. I am working on another plan to wear with the yard going behind the mast, but it's going to require a more elaborate mock-up.

I like what you say about opinions, John, and and strongly point out that my observations are only opinions and I am always looking for the opinions of others.

Rob, your flag is on the workbench. Thanks for straightening my pictures.

[Bligh]

Rob, your flag is on the workbench. Thanks for straightening my pictures.

My pleasure Dobbs. Know anything about Lateen sailed Frigates al la Ron Langton. I now have one as a model for my next project!

Rob.

[Dobbs]

How's this?

For the frigate, I'm thinking Burden 2 and 7 boxes of damage based on Succes fire power, with the same sailing arcs and Deck A. Xebec frigates always seem to have 32 guns, were fast and maneuverable, but historically the hulls were not said to be as strong as western European ships.

[Naharaht]

Will it have more crew boxes than a comparable Square-rigger?

[Bligh]

I have not even started thinking about those details yet Dave, but judging by History I would say yes, although I can't commit to anything until a white paper has been published and the working party reports back with its findings. I will now refer you over to Dobbs for his expert analysis. Next question please!

Rob.

[Bligh]

How's this?

For the frigate, I'm thinking Burden 2 and 7 boxes of damage based on Succes fire power, with the same sailing arcs and Deck A. Xebec frigates always seem to have 32 guns, were fast and maneuverable, but historically the hulls were not said to be as strong as western European ships.

Thanks very much for the card. Looks like my Spanish Frigate for conversion should be here tomorrow according to the tracker. The deck I use will be the spare A deck I won when I did my sinking wrecks.
Your analysis backs up exactly what I was hoping to hear sir.
Thank you for helping me out with all this work.
Rob.

[Ferrante]

Wow very nice job . I will use both Spaniard and Algerian flags . Thank you .

Xebecs were used in south and west Spain and South France as merchants and patrol ships . There were mostly 3 kinds of Xebecs here :

Biggers, 680 tons , y 38 cannons .
Middlers Ones , 420 tons and similar cannons .
Smallers , 275 tons , 20 cannons , used to coast patrol .

Similar ships with 2 mast were named “ Faluchos “

One of the most known pictures is this one . One Spaniard Xebec against 2 Algerian Xebecs ( Antonio Barceló was the captain of the Spaniard , he is known for his gunboats invention )

[Bligh]

Great picture and good to see the sweeps deployed and the sails in the batwing configuration. How did Antonio fare against the Algerians in this encounter?
I know we had a mention of a Spanish ship of the Line being captured by them but I just can't put my finger on the post. I was thinking that this might beef up the Algerines response in a game.
Rob.

[Ferrante]

Yes , in this case Barceló was transporting Dragon troops from the peninsula to Orán. And he rejected both Algerians and arrived to his destination. He was promoted by the action .

I know that one ship of the line was sinked near from Algeria because of a storm. And there were a US frigate near from the area that reported . The Spaniard were captured by the Algerian Dey ( Sultan )

I haven’t heard of that case , but surely there were some captured

[Dobbs]

Wow very nice job . I will use both Spaniard and Algerian flags . Thank you .

Xebecs were used in south and west Spain and South France as merchants and patrol ships . There were mostly 3 kinds of Xebecs here :

Biggers, 680 tons , y 38 cannons .
Middlers Ones , 420 tons and similar cannons .
Smallers , 275 tons , 20 cannons , used to coast patrol .

Similar ships with 2 mast were named “ Faluchos “

One of the most known pictures is this one . One Spaniard Xebec against 2 Algerian Xebecs ( Antonio Barceló was the captain of the Spaniard , he is known for his gunboats invention )

It's a cool picture, but there's a lot of artistic license at play. On the left Algerian, how did the yards get in front of both port and starboard shrouds? On the Spaniard, where is the starboard foremast shroud (maybe lost to damage)? The flags suggest a wind speed of 11-16 knots. I would think it would be tricky, perhaps even dangerous to try using sweeps while the boat is moving under sail.

[Bligh]

Thanks for your expertise on this once again Dobbs. This is just the kind of information which can save a lot of mistaken ideas being promulgated. Your sharp eys and sailing knowledge are of great value to me and I suspect a few other shipmates too.
Rob.

[Ferrante]

Very nice info Dobs . I have no idea about sailing so very useful info about the painting !
You have the right info about it . I suppose the painter was more focused into action view .
So Xebecs were fast .
Thank you

[Dobbs]

You bet, Ferrante. Thanks for posting the picture.

Naval historians have a real challenge because sailors typically didn't paint and painters didn't sail. The painters just painted what they thought they saw, or modified it for dramatic effect.

[Dobbs]

Here's a Xebec Frigate possibility with the 103 gun arcs.



And here's with the 107 arcs.

[Dobbs]

Here are bases to go against ships using unmodified Ares base cards:



The regular Xebec



The 107 arc Xebec Frigate



The 103 arc Xebec Frigate

[Bligh]

Thanks again Dobbs. This is starting to look like a whole crate of beer to me.
I see you have the Frigate on a C deck although you mentioned an A deck earlier. Any reason for the change of decks?
Rob.

[Dobbs]

I went with C deck because it's the faster deck. I got the decks confused the first go round. If you favor A deck I can change it.

[Bligh]

No problem Dobbs I also have a spare C deck from the same source.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Just to confirm, Rob, your Langton polacre, it has square sails on the main and lateens on the fore and mizzen?

[Dobbs]

Dobbs, if I remember correctly on the Kalmar Nyckel we used to furl the lateen sail on the mizzen before dipping (when that was done which was not often). I would suspect they'd have to furl the sail on a large xebec rig before dipping. I have seen some videos of traditional lateen rigging Mediterranean fishing craft but I am not sure they are shown tacking. I may have posted one in the forum somewhere.

I have pretty much convinced myself that a xebec could dip while wearing by doing something like this. Perhaps I should amend my xebec rules to say that you can wear from an advantaged tack to an advantaged tack if you spend one turn in the blue arc (sailing directly downwind)? If you skip over the blue arc, the sail trimmers don't have time to dip the yards and you end up on a disadvantaged tack.

[Bligh]

Just to confirm, Rob, your Langton polacre, it has square sails on the main and lanterns on the fore and mizzen?

You are correct Dobbs, except that the Mizzen looks more like a driver and has a tiny square over it.

Rob.

[Bligh]

I went with C deck because it's the faster deck. I got the decks confused the first go round. If you favor A deck I can change it.

I found that IO had no C deck spare so went with the A. I just photoshopped one in. That is about my state of play. Altering things already done. I have not got to shading skills and that sort of thing, or doing a construction from scratch.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

My initial impression of poleacres is that they were intended to compensate for the lateen sails downwind performance (or lack thereof). Of course, this results in a reduction of upwind performance (relative to the xebec). This is similar to what I did with the brigantine, it's a blend of the brig and schooner.

[Dobbs]

Regarding the xebec barque, does it have more freeboard than a regular xebec? How does it compare size-wise? Do you have any historical mentions or pictures?

[Dobbs]

Interesting how the lateen barque has a square topsail on the mizzen, while by definition a barque has no squares on the mizzen...

The square sail on the mizzen suggests that the intent was to improve the downwind performance by moving the sail plan aft. Off the wind, having the plan farther aft takes pressure off the rudder which tends to make the boat faster.

[Bligh]

That is a very interesting observation Dobbs.
Thanks for the ship the once over.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

I'm considering that a polacre would use the same sailing arcs as a SoW since the square mainmast would limit its upwind ability but improve its downwind performance. My impression is that polacres are bigger than sloops or xebecs, but smaller than xebec frigates, Rob? If so, I would use a slower deck than a sloop.

[Bligh]

Thanks Dobbs.
I will go with your suggestion.
Rob.

[Bligh]

The only ship deck that I have which is a bit slower than G is a spare K deck.
Would you be so kind as to knock me out a card for that for my Polacre Dobbs.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

The only ship deck that I have which is a bit slower than G is a spare K deck.
Would you be so kind as to knock me out a card for that for my Polacre Dobbs.
Rob.

You bet, Rob! I'll try to knock it together tonight, after I finish working on big boats for the day.

[Bligh]

Thanks Dobbs. I dont want to rush you. I will not even start painting the Hull until tomorrow at the earliest. May even be Sunday.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Rob, in what ways are the xebec barque different from a regular xebec, other than the mizzen topsail and the headsail?

[Bligh]

No difference at all other than that Dobbs and the stern being like a regular sailing ship.

The Polacre which is the one which is on the K deck which we are talking about is like this.
I should have thought of doing this before. Very sorry.
Rob.