Firing of flint lock carbine.
Thats a pretty cool clip. It brings home the time lag between the flash in the pan and the firing of the ball. The one thing I was surprised by was that apparent lack of recoil kick. Was that you in the clip and was there more recoil that apparent. I've always assumed that part of the inaccuracy was due to this, as well as smooth bore, no sight heavy long barrel etc etc.
Thanks for the post.
Morning John.
I have fired all manner of Black powder weapons some with live ammunition, with 1.5 charges in some instances where the touch hole had been drilled a little too high up the tube, and non from India pattern Bess, through Long Land pattern, Baker rifle nor Charleville had a noticeable hard kick nearly as much as a 12 bore shotgun.
The only surprise I got was with my Medieval hand gonne, which not only kicked but although only using a charge half that of my 12 gauge musket sounded like a cannon. This was due to it having a chambered bore at the stock end of the barrel.
The only gun I have fired that was a real pig is the Martini Henry. Kicked like a mule despite being warned about it and seating it well into my shoulder. I would not like to spend any length of time using that baby.
If you want to talk accuracy barrel weight etc I will give you my experience of that too.
You may be surprised about one or two aspects of that. I know that I was.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I put this in the history section on gunnery yesterday, but on reflection it may be of more interest here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCuVMx5h1x0
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
We used small powder charges.
In this a Swedish navy cap lock pistol model 1854 is fired. Note the time from fire to bullet hitting metal.
https://youtu.be/sqgrpZ-2E6Y
Here is another oddity which could be related to our period.
The Duck foot gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDvyLuSeJyk
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Good example of the lead in time needed to hit a target moving across your line of fire Jonas.Originally Posted by TexaS
I have never seen a better example.
Thanks for posting.
My Duck foot may well give the odds a better chance in that situation!
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Another sea service gun for your collection shipmates.
Nock volley gun.
Volley gun United Kingdom Royal Navy 1782–1804 United Kingdom Napoleonic Wars 1779 20 inches (510 mm) .46 inches (12 mm) 7 Flintlock, multiple barrel Seven rounds per discharge, reloading rate variable Variable Variable Muzzle-loaded
The Nock gun was a seven-barrelled flintlocksmoothbore firearm used by the Royal Navy during the early stages of the Napoleonic Wars. It is a type of volley gun adapted for ship-to-ship fighting, but was limited in its use because of the powerful recoil and eventually discontinued.
Its bizarre appearance and operation has led to it being portrayed in modern fictional works, notably in The Alamo feature film, and the Richard Sharpe series of novels by Bernard Cornwell.
History and design.
The weapon was invented by Britishengineer James Wilson in 1779, and named after Henry Nock, the London-based armaments manufacturer contracted to build the gun. It was intended to be fired from the rigging of Royal Navy warships onto the deck in the event that the ship was boarded by enemy sailors. Theoretically, the simultaneous discharge of seven barrels would have devastating effect on the tightly packed groups of enemy sailors.
The volley gun consisted of seven barrels welded together, with small vents drilled through from the central barrel to the other six barrels clustered around it. The central barrel screwed onto a hollow spigot which formed the chamber and was connected to the vent.
The gun operated using a standard flintlock mechanism, with the priminggunpowder igniting the central charge via a small vent. When the flash reached the central chamber, all seven charges ignited at once, firing more or less simultaneously.
The first models featured rifled barrels, but this made loading a long and cumbersome process, resulting in all following models being manufactured with smoothbore barrels.
Deployment and use.
During the early stages of the Napoleonic Wars, 500 Nock guns were purchased by the Royal Navy. However, attempts to use the gun during combat quickly revealed design flaws. The recoil caused by all seven barrels firing at once was more powerful than had been thought, and frequently injured or broke the shoulder of whoever was firing the gun, and in any case made the gun very difficult to control. Furthermore, officers were reluctant to issue the guns during battle out of fear that the flying sparks would set fire to the surrounding rigging and sails.
A smaller, lighter version was produced, which shortened the gun's range, but the recoil was still too powerful for sailors to feel comfortable firing it. The few models purchased by the Royal Navy were removed from service in 1804.
Examples are available for viewing in the Hollywood Guns exhibit at the National Firearms Museum, the Royal Armouries Museum, and the Charleston Museum (SC).
Popular culture.
The Nock gun was brought to modern attention in the 1960 film The Alamo in which one is used by actor Richard Widmark, playing Jim Bowie. The gun used in the film is now in the National Firearms Museum. Nock guns can be seen in realistic period films including Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World 2003, and fantasy films like Jonah Hex 2010, and Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter 2012.
In Bernard Cornwell's series of historical novels featuring fictional British soldier Richard Sharpe and, more recently, in the Sharpe TV series, Nock guns are used by the character Patrick Harper (a strong, burly man played by Daragh O'Malley).
A modern version was custom-built in an episode of American Guns.
For more information see this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7zs5RyD4I8
Last edited by Bligh; 11-14-2019 at 06:11.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
By the way, that pistol was fired at 25 meters.
That 'Duck Foot Gun' is the sort of weapon you would expect to see Jack Sparrow pulling out of his pocket and using to shoot four attacking enemy pirates in 'Pirates of the Caribbean'.
I am not really surprised at that Jonas. When we first fired our Muskets we expected that all the stories about the inaccuracy of the Flintlock and the uneven bounce and bad casting of the balls to be true.
With no prior experience, we all scored hits within the heart area on a dummy at 25 yards, got it in the torso at 50 without fail. It was only at over a hundred yards that some misses started to occur. I know that standing on the range is not the same as firing from the moving deck of a ship to the moving deck of another, but then we were not marksmen nor firing into the brown of massed seamen on a crowded deck.
You should have seen what a 12 gauge musket ball did to a 25 mm thick Oak plank at 25 yards.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Nice thread.
I have experience with blackpowder shooting too, but only with percusion rifles, pistols and revolvers.
Not had any Percussion experience myself Sven.
Have you any interesting observations to make concerning the weapons?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I like the recoil of the blackpowder rifle.
Not that hard and qick hit like the new weapons.
More this steady mighty push into the shoulder and that amazing smoke cloud in front of you.
I was intersted in flint lock weapons too, but those were much more expensive.
The feel of firning a ”western” revolver and a pistol like the one above is very different. Somethings make my Remington 1858 NMA feel much more modern. What I find is the biggest problem with old flintlocks is the delay from trigger pull until it’s actually fired. Another is pull weight on the trigger. The old locks are often very heavy to fire. The revolver feels much more modern in that way.
Interesting observations Jonas.
Of course the Reverend Forsyth's development of the Fulminate of Mercury ignition system was directly as a consequence of the delay in firing after the pan flashed over.
With regard to the speed of ignition, we discovered an interesting fact, which you may already know, quite by chance a few years ago when we did a siege at a private function for a Stately Home. Normally the Re-Enactment Society provides the powder, but in this case it was provided from the Estate. For priming they employed some very fine grained powder that they said was of the sort used in Naval ships guns, which they used as priming for a miniature brass starting cannon with which they started boat races on the lake.
Its speed of ignition was far superior to the medium stuff which we normally used.
However, when we ran out of medium powder we tried it as a main charge and it proved useless, fizzing and finally igniting with a whimper rather than a bang. The Senior Powder Master told us that because of its small grain size it packed down too tightly and insufficient oxygen could permeate between the grains to supply the combustion necessary for a quick ignition.
So that was a couple of things we found out about black powder on that day.
The only percussion firearm that I have handled was an American Colt Navy revolver, and that had quite a kick, but because I was using it double handed grip as suggested by the owner it was manageable, but quite surprising nevertheless after my Charleville Flintlock pistol.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I've managed to record some slow motion footage (it's not that slow, but still impressive) of some muskets firing off.
https://youtu.be/XVwMYh7qhcQ
https://youtu.be/1IJmUbF56Vc
https://youtu.be/efizxIsgZPw
(I realised I can't embed all of them directly, so you'll have to follow the above links.)
No-one expects a ship full of dwarves.
There's been some very interesting information on this thread, thanks.
I've only fired modern weapons and that was many years ago so I'm envious of you.
Rob your colt navy firing was this the cap and ball version, I know some were converted to metal cartridge, I know you said you used it two handed, but do you think the kick affected the accuracy of the shot or was the ball out of the barrel before the gun jerked up.
I'm interested in its application to rules for old west guns, i.e. is a gun with a bigger kick intrinsically less accurate?
I would be interested in your opinion.
Cheers
Ity was indeed the cap and ball early version John, and from the feel of it even steadied in two hands I'd say the kick would effect the trajectory. However, as I only had a couple of shots with it that could just be the fact that I had not adjusted to the weapons vagaries. More practice may have improved my control.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Good capture Gary.
Put that man in the Robarte's uniform on a charge for not securing his match sufficiently.
Bligh.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I guess my Remington 1858 NMA .44 has more kick than the .36 Navy you fired. I have fired it single handed and if I would really try to hit something I would fire it two handed. I have the added complexity of having a dominant left eye and being right handed.
I know your feelings Jonas. Until I went blind in my right eye it was my dominant one, and I am left handed.
I would like to have a go with the Remmington some time, but I doubt I will ever get the chance now as even my left eye is very short sighted.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Funny that, I'm also left-handed! Although learning to do everything right handed does have the benefit of being able to swap hands when I get tired.
And going back to the footage, I managed to win the trophy during our time at the range using a certain doglock
No-one expects a ship full of dwarves.
I had a .44 Colt Navy Revolver from Pietta/Italy.
First time in a long time on the forum. If people are interested, I made a video of loading and firing a black powder pistol. I was in Redington Pass near Tucson Arizona one cold and freezing wintery day and made this video https://youtu.be/LGxvnofs2AI
Thank you for sharing your video, Kenneth.
Good to hear from you again Ken, and thanks very much for adding to our knowledge of ballistic weapons.
You have some very interesting dispensers for powder there. Mine are only measured powder flasks with a safty cut off on a spring al a 17th Century, or ready made up cartridges kept in a belly bag.
What we need now are some videos of loading and discharging various calibers of cannon.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Then I went and found this one for the AWI just to start the cannon ball rolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9BiQv6gMLA
Rob.
Last edited by Bligh; 01-18-2020 at 08:56.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
And here are some 3lbr Naval Cannon in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NnUve9xS10
Rob
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Nice video, Rob!
Cheers Sven. I will have a look for any more when I get a moment.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Wasa cannon.
Very impressive Jonas.
This adds not only a whole new view of the fire power, but for me takes us back to when we watched the raising of the Mary Rose, and its subsequent renovation over the last 30 years.
So impressed that I watched the rest of the videos in Swedish. Fancy doing me a translation? just joking, but many thanks for finding this for us. Got to be Rep worthy.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I think these and Myth Busters tests are among the most interesting regarding cannon fire.
Here's one to train your Swedish... some good extra footage.
Scientists at the Vasa museum made the replica from an original.
Enthusiasts were present at the firing. (The guy in uniform is almost 100 years too late.)
350 m/s muzzle velocity.
Slow motion filmed in 4000 pictures a second.
Some of the cannonballs hit some furs 500 meters behind the target.
The purpose was primarily shrapnel (or splinters).
Yes! Another good find Jonas. A far larger example of what we found when we fired a musket ball at an old oak desk lid, and decided that gun fights from behind card tables or horse troughs unless they were filled to the brim, was asking for trouble.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
This one is really just a bit of fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsN1GvqSG2I
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Why don't we go backwards for a change?
No-one expects a ship full of dwarves.
I have actually served on a gun crew for one of those BL Guns Gary. I was a bringer up and they don't half reload and fire fast.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Sounds like a blast!I have actually served on a gun crew for one of those BL Guns Gary. I was a bringer up and they don't half reload and fire fast.
Rob.
No-one expects a ship full of dwarves.
It was hard work keeping up with the gun team Gary.
They had four breeches. One on the cannon ready to go.
One waiting, one empty one I was running back to the loader, and one the Loader had ready for my next run to the gun whilst he reloaded the return.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
First time I have seen a long cannon fire, except in films of course, but that was a lot more smoke than I envisaged, and if a broadside firing, I must rethink my opinions in that matter.
Cheers for the video Jonas
Have you not seen this Chris?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2WdU3Zkeig
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
No Rob, I have seen musket fire but only a small group but most cannon fire has been around half a doz or less which gave less smoke
Impressive...
Any save place on a sailing ship.
I can understand that the British trained their crews like hell to deal out more broadsides...
They keep telling me that the Orlop deck is the safest place to be,
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Now I see Sven's quote I see that I spelled fir-trees as furs... Oups.
I seriously read it as hitting some furs hung up to dampen the balls travel and take some of the velocity out of it much like the rolled hammocks along the sides of a ship.
Your version is much more entertaining than a few fir trees Jonas.
I only wish my Swedish was as good as your English, which is better than a lot of English people that I know.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks