Wave 3

[Gunner]

Last Ares SGN post.

We are at work on the next wave of ships, that we hope should be on the market before the end of the year. With this release, we will add to the English fleet 50-gun Portland class ships, 64-gun Artesien class ships for the French, as well as new ships-of-the-line for the Spanish fleet - the fundamental Meregildos (Santa Ana, Real Carlos, Principe de Asturias...) and Third-Rate ships such as the San Juan Nepomuceno and Bahama.

We are also at work on a set of rules allowing you to expand your game to play with a larger number of ships, and other add-ons, to enhance your gameplay experience.

All the best

Ares Staff

Does anyone know for sure, what the two names of the English 50, the French 64, the Spanish 74 and the Spanish 112 will be

[Nightmoss]

I don't know, but I think DB and DM know, but cannot release that information until Ares gives them clearance to do so?

Might be some hints here though?

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ght=Meregildos

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ght=Meregildos

[fredmiracle]

I'm sure the 50 and 64 will have cross-flagged French and British versions. I'm also strongly suspecting that the Spanish 70 will have a British version--I think Bahama and some others were captured.

EDIT: I see DB confirmed this for us:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ll=1#post36015

[Mark Kaiser]

And other add ons?, Could we possibly be getting that Random Events Deck or Log Book i've been ranting about? or a rank and promotional system for the player character? Heh, I doubt it, but will keep my fingers crossed for the fantastic. Pirates, Sea creatures, Unholy Weather, Uncharted islands, Amphibious raids, what's not to love!?, maybe someday.

[Kentop]

I'd like to see captain and crew disability decks. Tyrannical captain, indecisive Captain, incompetent captain, mutinous crew, scurvy crew, and untrained crew could give a player more to think about instead of fighting to the last man every time. I would like to see ships in danger of mutiny if their complement drops below one third. I would like to see their rate of fire get worse as the ships take damage. Simply dropping the number of chits drawn feels artificial.

[Nightmoss]

And other add ons?, Could we possibly be getting that Random Events Deck or Log Book i've been ranting about? or a rank and promotional system for the player character? Heh, I doubt it, but will keep my fingers crossed for the fantastic. Pirates, Sea creatures, Unholy Weather, Uncharted islands, Amphibious raids, what's not to love!?, maybe someday.

I'd like to see captain and crew disability decks. Tyrannical captain, indecisive Captain, incompetent captain, mutinous crew, scurvy crew, and untrained crew could give a player more to think about instead of fighting to the last man every time. I would like to see ships in danger of mutiny if their complement drops below one third. I would like to see their rate of fire get worse as the ships take damage. Simply dropping the number of chits drawn feels artificial.

Would certainly like all of these in varying forms, but I'm also intrigued and anxious to see the Ares "fleet rules" that have been mentioned as being in development.

[Popsical]

The fleet rules interest me the most also. Id like a streamlined smooth way to play my 4 ships versus my daughters 4 ships. Fingers crossed.

[Gunner]

Fairly fast SGN fleet rules are at the top of my want list also.

[fredmiracle]

I find myself comparing/contrasting the "paper only expansion, building upon the Captain/Crew Skill elements" that Keith teased in March, with the "set of rules allowing you to expand your game to play with a larger number of ships, and other add-ons, to enhance your gameplay experience" Ares teased in May.

something tells me they realized that fleet-battles have a lot more potential to spur mass ship buying than role-playing oriented stuff...

[TexaS]

But I think the production costs for just cards would be significantly lower than for model + cards and they will probably still charge as much. It could be better margin on those role-playing oriented stuff, but probably smaller series though...

[fredmiracle]

But I think the production costs for just cards would be significantly lower than for model + cards and they will probably still charge as much. It could be better margin on those role-playing oriented stuff, but probably smaller series though...

I'm sure Ares is happy to make money any way they can, but the hints they have been dropping suggest that each player is not buying enough models to fit their business plan. That's the piece that fleet battles (if fun to play and successful in capturing people's imagination) could have a much bigger impact on.

[Kentop]

I'm sure Ares is happy to make money any way they can, but the hints they have been dropping suggest that each player is not buying enough models to fit their business plan. That's the piece that fleet battles (if fun to play and successful in capturing people's imagination) could have a much bigger impact on.

Fleet battle rules will be very welcome, but I doubt it will have any impact on ship sales simply because the ships go for 15 to 30 bucks a pop. Now, if they gave you a great discount on purchasing "fleets all in one go", that might catch on. Imagine a fleet with no ship mats or movement decks or anything else. Each ship in the fleet just comes with a base, ship card and ship. Fleet rules would be that the ships match their speed and orientation according to the flagship. The flagship orders movement (flanking turn, column turn, etc.) and individual ship combat is resolved. You would have to replace the damage chits for each combat because you would deplete the damage chits on the first turn. Keeping track of damage on each ship would have to be done on a fleet "line of battle"® sheet (just kidding about the registered trademark). The question remains, "How much would I pay for a fleet of ships, and how many ships is that anyway?".

Here's a historical view of fleet sizes during the Napoleonic era:


Napoleonic Fleet Sizes


Ships of the Line, 1808-1809
Britain France Spain Holland Russia Denmark Sweden Portugal
113 45+* 45+* 6 34 21 11 10
* Combined Fleets

Britain's Ships of the Line
1808-09 1811 1813 1814
113 107 102 99
Divided into four naval commands: The North Sea Fleet, The Channel Fleet, the Mediterraenean Squadron and the Baltic Fleet.

France's Ships of the Line
1807 1808-09 1813
34 45+* 80**

* Combined Fleet With Spain.
** Excluding 35 under construction

America's Warships
1794 1801 1812
6 54 17

Numbers provided by http://www.napoleonguide.com/navy_sizes.htm

[fredmiracle]

Fleet battle rules will be very welcome, but I doubt it will have any impact on ship sales simply because the ships go for 15 to 30 bucks a pop.

I dunno.

Ares' experience--according to what people have reported they've said--is that their business model is based on WoG, where many people buy "every paint job" of their airplanes, at ~$10-$14 a pop (Miniature Market). So let's say $144 for a whole wave.

The "problem" with SGN is that few people are following that behavior of buying "every paint job" of the ships, at ~$11-17 a pop (again, MM), so let's say $168 for a wave.

Is that $24 making the difference? I'm sure for some people it does, but I'd suspect it's a distinct minority. I bet the biggest reason is that there is less variety and visual differentiation between sailing ships, as compared to WW1 biplanes.

Essentially Ares didn't create any strong reason to buy all the ships, or even to buy very many of them. Maybe fleet battles would provide the needed justification for more people to load up the shopping cart.

[Nightmoss]

Besides cost another reason I suspect many folks aren't buying every paint job is that there's really not a dramatical difference between painted ships either within a nation or between nations. At one foot or more they all rather look alike to most gamers.

WoG paint jobs have the advantage of better historical documentation and a huge variety in paint schemes. We're not so lucky in SoG.

[Diamondback]

Fred, who says they can't do both in the same box? For example, the Indian Ocean campaign set I'm trying to sell them on would combine both fleet-action and RPG elements, in that you want your captains to live longer so they get promoted and gain better skills, possibly even gaining "section leader" abilities that help not just their ship but others within say a ruler or two as well.

[fredmiracle]

Fred, who says they can't do both in the same box?

I'm not saying they can't--I took "and other add-ons, to enhance your gameplay experience" to mean the stuff Keith had announced in March. But it did strike me as interesting (and probably smart) how much more excited they seem to have gotten about fleet play in the intervening 3 months, and I suppose that may at least reshuffle their priorities.

In general I think appealing to as many people as possible is good. But I would have to know a lot more to be convinced that an "expansion building upon the Captain/Crew Skill elements" will lead to a lot of new revenues. Fleet actions seem to have more potential to me, if done well...

[Walram]

I’d have to agree with Fred on this. Having done the “Battle of the Nile” and most recently “the Glorious First of June”, I’ve been sold on doing fleet actions for quite a while. It didn’t take much to convince me to buy a few more ships to round out my fleets.

A few comments on my experience with large fleet actions:
I’ve got quite a few various age of sail miniature rule sets (20+) as well as board games and I’ve found the ‘Sails of Glory” rules the simplest and fastest rule set that also gives a reasonable flavor of the period. Most board games rules are usually clearer and easier than miniature rules yet I’ve found ‘Wooden Ships and Iron Men”, “Close Action”, and “Flying Colors” all more difficult (and “1805- Sea of Glory” totally different level of play.)

I think it is mostly due to the use of the maneuver cards, the base cards, and the ship logs that simplify the game play. The lack of charts to consult – drawing damage chits instead – also helps. However I find the sail setting counter a little fiddly (slides around too easily for large actions.)

The one thing I've found that slows fleet actions down (assuming you are controlling up to 5 ships per player) is keeping the maneuver cards sorted out. It’s very easy to get them mixed up and then it gets frustrating and slows the players down. Keeping them in 3 in. by 4 in. baggies helped during the First of June.

The other thing you have to watch out for is the table space limitations. Not so much length, but width. Besides the game/sea mat, the ship mats take up quite a bit of space and it is even more difficult with multiple ships to control. (Try reaching, setting cards, and maneuvering when the table is that wide! It doesn’t work well.) For the Nile and First of June games I did away with the ship mats due to the space limitations/reach issues. Using two-sided smoke counters allowed us to do away with the ammunition counters and the broadside spaces of the ship mat. "Remove all grey smoke counters. Now, flip your white smoke counter over to the grey side!"

If you keep the rules simple (basic rules plus sail settings) you can do a very good “age of sail” fleet action game. For those interested, I’ll try to get more info out (try for this week end) on the running of the “Glorious First of June” game at Enfilade! 2015.

[John Paul]

David,

Your points are well made based on your experiences! Most gamers are comfortable with a standard height gaming table about six feet wide for most games. However, for naval type games where the "playing pieces", or ships are being carefully maneuvered around the gaming surface a four foot wide table is more comfortable. Some are even happy to be on the floor, but some of us are not crazy about getting up and down from the floor all that much!!

Early on one of the ideas I came up with for keeping the Maneuver Decks organized, and out of the way was using Business Card holders found in your local Office Supply store to keep them in. A small index card, cut to size, with the ship's name on it, and the Letter of the maneuver deck helps keep things well organized for the players no matter how many ships they may be pushing.

The more simple you can keep things, and allow the players to focus on playing the game is the real key weather your playing a large fleet action, or even a one on one frigate duel! So simple rules and mechanics go a long way in keeping the players focus on playing the game, rather then trying to figure out "where do I mark this", or "what do I do with that"!!

[Gunner]

Funny you should say that Paul, guess what we use,

[Kentop]

[QUOTE=Gunner;48604]Funny you should say that Paul, guess what we use, /QUOTE]

Great idea! I'm always amazed at the solutions you come up with.

[John Paul]

Ed,

Excellent choice!!

I went with the kind that lets the cards rest Horizontally, just to avoid the possibility of the players tipping them over while leaning over. But your choice gives the benefit of separating out the cards better!!

[Iron Outlaw]

Mark, you mentioned a "Log Book." Can you point me to the link?

[Iron Outlaw]

Look forward to that David!

Just read O'Brien's Mauritius campaign and have done some research on it. Reckon it would make for a great campaign!

[Popsical]

Just reading that at the moment David, thoroughly enjoying it, and your right SoG would be good to recreate the battles involved.