SGN Sales

[fredmiracle]

After reflecting on some of the comments that I have read in this forum I am beginning to wonder if Ares might be better served if they evolved their Sails Of Glory system into one that can game WW1/WW2 naval warfare.

The thing is that this system really only adds value in a situation in which (a) maneuver was important, and (b) there was only a limited set of possible maneuvers.

Neither of these was really at all true for World War I/II naval battles. Of course you can say that in very specific circumstances, maneuver mattered--if a ship could turn fast enough it might avoid a bomb, or if it was lucky it could comb a torpedo track. But these were still really just "roll of the dice" expedients at the last minute. It's not like tactical maneuver capabilities and choices ever played a significant role in determining the course or outcome of any naval battle.

It seems to me that the Ares system might be appropriate for an American Revolution/Napoleonic/Civil War land miniatures game, since the units were drilled on very specific maneuvers they could execute in the field, and the way they maneuvered was very important to how the battle came out. But I'm not sure they want to produce that kind of mini, nor that the market for that is huge either.

And I agree that what we really need is not to have Ares distracted on something else, but more product--and maybe more gameplay options--for what we already have...

[Hobbes]

Without knowing anything about their sales, I won't be that pessimistic. I think SoG has the potential of being a constant seller. Although having similar mechanics it aims at a different group of gamers than X-Wing.

SoG has been around for what 12 months now? We already have over 1/3 of the member numbers of the Aerodrome (active and inactive), which essentially hosts 2 games. Sales for Ares Battle of Five Armies/Lord of the Rings games will reach their peak with the release of the movie, which explains why they focus on these games right now.

And besides, we know that Ares has quite some things in the production line for SoG. They could improve on communication, but given the low number of staff, the number of games being in critical phase (Bo5A being released, Galaxy Defenders starting shipping), I can keep up my patience a little longer.

[kenji]

It is a good game and worth the effort to make it succeed in the marketplace.

Amen brother, amen.

Now all we need is Ares' buy-in lol

[fredmiracle]

I've beat this drum a bit before, but here I go again...

as I think about FFGs X-Wing (what I know about it) and SGN, there are a lot of things Ares can't control, and a lot of things we as fans can't control.

But one thing that strikes me is that much of the chatter I've seen about X-Wing is about what I will call the "meta-gaming" aspect of it--designing different fleets of ships with good synergies that stack up well against other fleets.

When new X-Wing ships are announced, people are excited about them visually, and in terms of their "history" in the SW canon. But they get another hit of excitement from looking at the stats and capabilities of the ships, pilots, add-on systems, etc. And then this excitement grows as they think about the possible synergies with existing units, and start pondering how to combine units in different ways within the point limits to make effective fleets. And then they have a lot of discussion amongst themselves debating these various issues (just look at their message boards--in the main forum there are a million threads with stuff like "XYZ-192 is the best ship" and "How do you use Jake Warbleson's ace card" and "Can the 10 Tie-intercepter build be beaten?"). Then these ideas get played out in lots of little ad-hoc tournaments among various gaming groups. And all this drives a lot of PURCHASES of ships, in order to make various competitive builds possible.

I know this stuff is anathema to the prim and proper historical gamer--I understand the feeling, and the worst of it makes me gag too. So maybe the SGN fan base is not a good target for this kind of thing. But I'm not so sure of that--I suspect SGN would profit a lot from having some kind of "meta gaming" dimension and the attendant energy. It would need to have enough juice to add a real dimension of interest, but would hopefully still be somewhat understated, and contribute historical flavor even if not necessarily historical accuracy.

My proposal would be "SGN Tournament Rules". The intent would be to try to keep within the SGN rules system as much as possible, but to create an opportunity for crafting a variety of fleet builds, with different strengths and weaknesses, from a pool of differentiated units. Some things that would be needed:

a) streamlining the rules in various ways so that people feel it's practical to run fleets of 4-6 ships. I think it's conceivable this could be done. Personally I'd start with a webpage that lets you print out paper ships logs, similar to my XL spreadsheet. The log management overhead seems like the first thing that would deter people from even trying to lay out a 5 vs 5 battle. From there basic rules would probably be ok, but I'd think about a judicious set of things from the more advanced rules to add flavor. Probably NOT two-card-ahead movement (?). Could consider dice-based damage or something like that...

b) somehow (?) introduce some kind of Rock-Paper-Scissors dimension to the game. I don't have great ideas here, but I think it's important.

c) work hard to significantly differentiate ships. This would probably require a redo on all the stats, and might require a ripple effect on how attacks are made and damage allocated (in order to create more space for differentiation, etc.). I would put the historical exploits of the ship more front-and-center, because people like that. I'd consider special abilities, as well as differentiating the basic stats. Maybe some ideas could be stolen from other games, without going overboard. The differences between units would have to be enough so that you REALLY care whether you have Bellerophon or Goliath in your fleet. Enough so that when new ships are announced, we could have a slow reveal of the capabilities of each ship, and each one would be EXCITING.

d) similarly, consider a revamp/expansion of the captain/crew cards to make them more varied, interesting and compelling


Ideally Ares would do this. But it could be a fan project. I would really want Ares to be positively inclined toward the idea however--if we designed it, but then they approved it, marketed it and published it in a nice form, it would be much more likely to achieve something meaningful, than if it's just a set of posts on this board.

[Nightmoss]

Thanks Fred. I enjoyed reading your post.

Tournament Rules to introduce more of a meta game into Sails of Glory seems reasonable if not essential to add some additional excitement to the table. You're not the first person to mention ship similarities and the statistical limitations that are facing continued development. I'll enjoy reading other posts and suggestions I expect to see here shortly.

Cheers!

[Hobbes]

Hi Fred,

Very interesting thread with a nice appraoch to make us more excited about every ship release. Maybe the ability cards coming with Victory and Constitution will be something along the line you are suggesting.

[Popsical]

Some ideas for tournament play:

1) have D4 based damage to ships, modified by range and arcs.
2) play each card for movement as you go.
3) no reloading, each broadside may fire each turn.
4) damage tracks on a similar theme to games like Silent death, with tick off boxes
5) cards of characters to enhance ships

Thoughts?

[Kentop]

Some ideas for tournament play:

1) have D4 based damage to ships, modified by range and arcs.
2) play each card for movement as you go.
3) no reloading, each broadside may fire each turn.
4) damage tracks on a similar theme to games like Silent death, with tick off boxes
5) cards of characters to enhance ships

Thoughts?

1) Why not just use B counters all the time if the intent is to inflict more damage with every turn.
2) Works for me, speeds up the game, but you lose a lot of strategy and planning, you know, the fun parts.
3) Turns the game into whoever hits first with the most damage wins. I like selective damage.
4) Could get weird. Most napoleonic war games give a morale boost to any unit commanded by Nappy himself. Marshal Ney, not so much. But doing the same for a ship of the line under orders from the fleet admiral or squadron leader seems excessive. How about giving a movement bonus for the ship with the best sea chanties? You could also do a Dungeons and Dragon type character builder taking a captain for each ship, rolling up things like charisma and intelligence, and putting your best captain at the head of a squadron?

[Popsical]

A lot of players go to tournaments to try list builds, as mentioned above earlier.
This means needing to field more than 1 ship per player (or 1 big ass one).
I think by streamlining like i have in my suggestions above, you could manage 3 or at a push 4 ships per player.
The counters arent conducive to quick fire multi ship combat, so a d4 modified by factors would be better.

[Graver]

I have been through this with Wings. They produce product at a steady pace, just not fast enough to placate eager but impatient players. Personally, me and my wallet appreciate the fact that they do not crank out product constantly. SOG is an excellent game and will always have a steady and growing base of players, just like Wings. The reason SOG and Wings will never achieve the status of the X-Wing games is the fact there is no company sponsored tournament circuit driving its popularity. In my humble opinion , this is a good thing. In any tournament game, it is about beating the system and rules, not the pleasure of the play itself. Power gamers are overwhelmingly attracted to games that offer sponsored official tournaments. One of the reasons I stopped playing Magic was because of these pricks. They sucked the fun out of the game. Power gamers demand power combos. In placating the market, sets are produced quickly, with more and more broken game balance issues requiring page after page of errata. This is a vicious and ugly path that I hope Ares never goes down. When I meet a Wings or SOG I know I will be playing a game with someone who loves the history and the beauty of game systems. These are the people I want to play with.

[kenji]

Well said Graver!

One other observation I would make is that historical games like SGN tend to attract an older crowd. I think this age difference also influences how we play and enjoy the game. X-Wing tends to involve younger players.

[David Manley]

None of the X Wing players in our local group are younger than 40 but generally I think yours is an accurate observation

[Popsical]

I dont do tournaments myself anymore, i was just suggesting how it could be done.
List build spam power gaming does my nut!

[Arakus]

None of the X Wing players in our local group are younger than 40....

As he said, X Wing attract younger players!

[Diamondback]

Um, I've seen plenty of older Munchkins in my Axis & Allies and WK Pirates days... O.O

I'd like to see an Organized Play system, but one that encourages just Showing Up and Participating rather than win-at-all-cost Munchkinry. The example would be if anybody remembers WizKids Pirates prize support during the Barbary Coast and South China Seas offerings... everybody walks away the same, just that winners get bragging rights--I think what killed this was the Munchkins didn't like it and took their dollars elsewhere...

[fredmiracle]

I have been through this with Wings. They produce product at a steady pace, just not fast enough to placate eager but impatient players. Personally, me and my wallet appreciate the fact that they do not crank out product constantly. SOG is an excellent game and will always have a steady and growing base of players, just like Wings. The reason SOG and Wings will never achieve the status of the X-Wing games is the fact there is no company sponsored tournament circuit driving its popularity. In my humble opinion , this is a good thing. In any tournament game, it is about beating the system and rules, not the pleasure of the play itself. Power gamers are overwhelmingly attracted to games that offer sponsored official tournaments. One of the reasons I stopped playing Magic was because of these pricks. They sucked the fun out of the game. Power gamers demand power combos. In placating the market, sets are produced quickly, with more and more broken game balance issues requiring page after page of errata. This is a vicious and ugly path that I hope Ares never goes down. When I meet a Wings or SOG I know I will be playing a game with someone who loves the history and the beauty of game systems. These are the people I want to play with.

Color me eager but impatient!

I'm certainly not advocating it become Magic the Gathering. But really, I think that is a strawman, because it's simply not on the table. Even if SGN could have been that (which seems unlikely to me, but the Pirates game perhaps indicates otherwise), Ares clearly is not going to do that.

However, my proposal is that it's not necessary for it to be the anti-Magic either. My thinking is that some elements could be adopted which would provide people more ways to play and enjoy the game.

This is coming, personally, from wanting more opportunities to interact with the game, and to energize the community. It's no more or less than that. If I left SGN on the shelf, and took it out and played a game every six months, then it would be plenty fine. But SGN appeals to me, and I'd like to invest a chunk of my time surfing-online/fiddling-around/thinking-in-the-shower to it--that is just my personality. But it's not working out for me, because I'm finding that my options to do new interesting things with the game are limited, and that there aren't a lot of other people to interact with. And this might, in part, be because most of the gaming dimensions which would inspire extensions and discussion and interaction are minimal or non-existent in SGN.

So I was trying to propose a way that new dimensions could be explored in SGN, in a way that would tweak, rather than throwing away, the game system. This might require trying out some things that are more "gamey" than "historical," but I think it could be done without devolving into ahistorical power-gaming. At least it seems worth trying.

It would really help if Ares were to support such an effort to a limited degree, but I'm not expecting they would many any significant effort or changes. That's just being realistic. Rather, I imagine they would continue to focus on the game-as-it-is-now, and not adjust their production plans in any significant way. Best case they'd make a nice PDF from our rules and host them on their site.

But anyway I'm starting to think I'm in a small enough minority that I'm just being quixotic.

[kenji]

None of the X Wing players in our local group are younger than 40 but generally I think yours is an accurate observation

Compared to my age that's still young lol

[Popsical]

The advantage of a separate pdf set of streamlined SoG rules means that munchkins wont turn up to standard rule events for those of a more authentic bent.
However it would provide an entry level for younger gamey type players.
We old fuddy duddies dont exude appeal to the younger generations for weekend fun and gaming.

[Graver]

This is coming, personally, from wanting more opportunities to interact with the game, and to energize the community. It's no more or less than that. If I left SGN on the shelf, and took it out and played a game every six months, then it would be plenty fine. But SGN appeals to me, and I'd like to invest a chunk of my time surfing-online/fiddling-around/thinking-in-the-shower to it--that is just my personality. But it's not working out for me, because I'm finding that my options to do new interesting things with the game are limited, and that there aren't a lot of other people to interact with. And this might, in part, be because most of the gaming dimensions which would inspire extensions and discussion and interaction are minimal or non-existent in SGN.

So I was trying to propose a way that new dimensions could be explored in SGN, in a way that would tweak, rather than throwing away, the game system. This might require trying out some things that are more "gamey" than "historical," but I think it could be done without devolving into ahistorical power-gaming. At least it seems worth trying.

.

I agree 100% and I welcome most anything that encourages others to try the game I care so much about! There is always more than way to play a game and I encourage others to think that way. One of the things I have appreciated about Ares is they leave the game open ended enough to allow players to do that. You can tailor the game to your personal tastes, emphasizing what you like, tossing what does not suit you. This is the other advantage of not being a tournament game. Sanctioned tournaments require very strict rules with narrow interpretation.

[Diamondback]

I'll be honest, except for when I'm using the game to teach a class the full-on Advanced Rules with every option "turned on" strike me as a little beyond what I'd play recreationally, at least so far.

[Pseudotheist]

From The Family Game Store. in Savage, MD:

Best Selling Games
Over the Last 3 Months
*
1. Magic: The Gathering
2. Ticket to Ride: 10th Anniversary Edition
3. Sails of Glory
4. Pandemic
5. Dungeons & Dragons
6. Settlers of Catan
7. HeroClix
8. Pokemon
9. Ticket to Ride
10. Megamat with 1" Squares & Hexes.


Apparently the game will sell pretty well if you can get the appropriate product on the shelves...

[csadn]

I'd like to see an Organized Play system, but one that encourages just Showing Up and Participating rather than win-at-all-cost Munchkinry. The example would be if anybody remembers WizKids Pirates prize support during the Barbary Coast and South China Seas offerings... everybody walks away the same, just that winners get bragging rights

The Ancient Olympic model -- "a laurel wreath, and the honor of competing".

(No, I am *NOT* suggesting _SoG_ tourneys be held in the nude. >;) )

[kenji]

Thank you for sharing Todd, that is an encouraging sign.

I only hope that when the USS Constitution is released that will lead to a surge in sales also. Perhaps some people will buy it as a collector's item if they don't actually play SGN much.

[Naharaht]

For sales to increase, there has to be some stock on the shelves. No shop in my area has had any for months.

[Arakus]

For sales to increase, there has to be some stock on the shelves. No shop in my area has had any for months.

Yes, it seems they don't ship enough to europe at all.....

[Diamondback]

The Ancient Olympic model -- "a laurel wreath, and the honor of competing".

(No, I am *NOT* suggesting _SoG_ tourneys be held in the nude. >;) )

Don't make me smack you with a live trout... LOL

[Coog]

The Ancient Olympic model -- "a laurel wreath, and the honor of competing".

(No, I am *NOT* suggesting _SoG_ tourneys be held in the nude. >;) )

Don't make me smack you with a live trout... LOL

I am *NOT* suggesting

Sounds like he is demanding!

[Diamondback]

Only if I'm playing with a bunch of attractive women. :D Otherwise, everybody Keep Clothes ON and Hands Where I Can See 'Em. LOL

[Coog]

Only if I'm playing with a bunch of attractive women. :D Otherwise, everybody Keep Clothes ON and Hands Where I Can See 'Em. LOL

I am *NOT* suggesting

Then it sounds like you better stay away Chris!

[7eat51]

But anyway I'm starting to think I'm in a small enough minority that I'm just being quixotic.

I don't think so, and I encourage you to continue exploring ideas. I am going to incorporate different ideas already suggested, such as the race game or using sea monsters.

My approach to a game is to modify it according to audience to facilitate folks having a good time. If I can use a streamlined rule approach, ahistorical elements, tournaments, point-builds, etc., and get people to the table for a good time, I will. This, also, enables me, with a game like SoG, to open the door for more historical sessions.

As for jerks, ask them to leave. I don't want to focus on them, creating a system to minimize their behavior. I rather focus on developing a fun, interesting, or challenging session, and if someone shows up that wants to exploit the time for his or her ego, I will refund any payment if any, and tell them there are other venues that would fit their interest better. Why would we allow such folks to ruin games we run?

[DeRuyter]

I have been through this with Wings. They produce product at a steady pace, just not fast enough to placate eager but impatient players. Personally, me and my wallet appreciate the fact that they do not crank out product constantly. SOG is an excellent game and will always have a steady and growing base of players, just like Wings. The reason SOG and Wings will never achieve the status of the X-Wing games is the fact there is no company sponsored tournament circuit driving its popularity. In my humble opinion , this is a good thing. In any tournament game, it is about beating the system and rules, not the pleasure of the play itself. Power gamers are overwhelmingly attracted to games that offer sponsored official tournaments. One of the reasons I stopped playing Magic was because of these pricks. They sucked the fun out of the game. Power gamers demand power combos. In placating the market, sets are produced quickly, with more and more broken game balance issues requiring page after page of errata. This is a vicious and ugly path that I hope Ares never goes down. When I meet a Wings or SOG I know I will be playing a game with someone who loves the history and the beauty of game systems. These are the people I want to play with.

William you hit the nail on the head. I would add that this doesn't mean SOG is not popular (see post re: Savage Mills sales rank). I would however not lump all tournament players into the power gamer model. I have been distracted from SOG (for the moment) by "Bolt Action" and while there is list building for sure, all the guys at the tournaments are relaxed. At one tournament there was an award for the most historical (least gamey!) army list. This game along with most other historical tournament style games (DBA, DBR, FOG) lack the elements that make for the worst power gaming like collection of special cards/figures, and the ever increasing special abilities, heroes, etc. (40k being a prime example of this "codex creep") The exception IMO being Flames of War which seems to attract the power gamers and there's always new books with special units and heroes, etc.

Well said Graver!

One other observation I would make is that historical games like SGN tend to attract an older crowd. I think this age difference also influences how we play and enjoy the game. X-Wing tends to involve younger players.

As a generalization I would agree with you. As David noted some of us north of 40 are enjoying X-Wing, but I think you'd find a younger crowd at the X-Wing tournaments. Having said that historical games can attract a younger audience. I think Battlefront touts "Flames of War" for doing this, of course FOW tournaments are a power gamers dream! "Bolt Action" is attracting a younger crowd because it is similar to 40K and Warhammer and it has the list building element to it. (Fingers crossed that codex creep does not set in!)

I don't think so, and I encourage you to continue exploring ideas. I am going to incorporate different ideas already suggested, such as the race game or using sea monsters.

My approach to a game is to modify it according to audience to facilitate folks having a good time. If I can use a streamlined rule approach, ahistorical elements, tournaments, point-builds, etc., and get people to the table for a good time, I will. This, also, enables me, with a game like SoG, to open the door for more historical sessions.

As for jerks, ask them to leave. I don't want to focus on them, creating a system to minimize their behavior. I rather focus on developing a fun, interesting, or challenging session, and if someone shows up that wants to exploit the time for his or her ego, I will refund any payment if any, and tell them there are other venues that would fit their interest better. Why would we allow such folks to ruin games we run?

Agreed, well said. Fortunately I don't run into the jerks much in my gaming experience! Also since I have been going to generally the same three major conventions for the last 20 years I know where they are and which games/tournaments they are in and avoid them!

[ChyronDave]

Throwing in my two cents on this issue.

While a SoG tournament might be interesting, I don't see it happening on a broad scale... at least not on the scale of X-Wing or Attack Wing.

I do see SoG having something that X-Wing does not: extended playability. I know that a few of the X-Wing players we had in our group have dropped off. Even those who stay tend to get tired of it after a while because it is pretty much just dogfights all the time. The historical nature of SoG may not fuel tournament play, but I see it keeping the interests of players because of the historical nature of the game. I would play it more if there were more people in my area who were interested in it, and I feel that the lack a availability may be what is hurting SoG at the moment. Once more ships get out there, and people figure out that all they need are the ship mats and tokens (sold separate from the starter set) and the downloaded PDF rules, I think more people would get interested.

[csadn]

Sounds like he is demanding!

Good Lord, *NO*.

I have seen what gamers look like.... :P

http://kotaku.com/magic-the-gatherin...cks-1541155916

[Diamondback]

I think Bobby meant you were demanding to be fish-slapped. :p

As for the other, let us not speak of such ideas again until the ratio of Attractive Lasses to Ugly Lads in gaming is at least 2-to-1, preferably better. :)

[soul taker]

You can’t sell a game if there is no game to sell. The lack of product on the self is hurting this game. The fact that there never seems to be any new information coming out about the game also hurts. The lack of info and product on the selves makes it seem like Ares has dropped the game. The stretching sculpts threads are great if only I could find the ships to repaint into other ships. I was inspired to do some repaints of stand in U.S. ships for my son but every time I’ve tried to find the ships to repaint there are none on the self.

If we want a younger audience to play these games it is up to use to introduce it to them. We can’t just sit back and say oh the younger crowed doesn’t like these kinds of games. We can show the kids that history can be interesting and fun but it takes work on our part. History classes in school are sorely lacking and normally are just regurgitate facts kids are forced to learn. There are better ways to teach history but that is a different discussion all together.

Both of my kids love playing the game and WGS and WGF. My son is 14 and my daughter is 10. We have brought a few of my sons friends into the game just by making it part of our game rotation. Then while you have them playing you can start introducing some historical facts about the ships you are using and the next thing you know the kids want to know more.

The problem with tournaments is the focus of the game changes from lets play and have fun to it’s all about winning. You put prizes on the line and things get even worse. No mater what if you set up tournaments and offer prizes while you might bring in some new players at least temporarily you will also bring in the jerks and the power gamers. They may not stay long when they find out its not what they want but a lot of times the damage will already be done and a lot of the regular players will be driven off. I’ve seen this happen to many times. Another thing I’ve seen is power gamers don’t like kids. They seem to go out of there way to make games for them even more miserable then they do for adults. Also a lot of them refuse to play with kids at all.

I keep seeing how everyone on here says they love the game but at the same time they also say that the rules need to be changed so that tournaments can be run. I have to ask if this game is so great why do the rules need drastic changes. This is a community for supporting this game but how can we expect others to buy into it if they come on here and all they see is how the rules need to be changed because they don’t fit in with a tournament model. It will make people think twice about picking it up.

I watched a game that I loved and thought was a great game, die because the designers decided to change the game to try and get the magic players involved. It completely changed how the game played and felt and ended up driving off most of the original players. Now that game is no more.

Sorry this got so long I really didn’t mean for it to so I will just shut up now.

[fredmiracle]

I keep seeing how everyone on here says they love the game but at the same time they also say that the rules need to be changed so that tournaments can be run. I have to ask if this game is so great why do the rules need drastic changes. This is a community for supporting this game but how can we expect others to buy into it if they come on here and all they see is how the rules need to be changed because they don’t fit in with a tournament model. It will make people think twice about picking it up.

I like the rules a lot and enjoy playing it as it is. I usually have a game in progress, either solo or with my kids.

However what I'd like is to integrate the gameplay itself into a larger online conversation, and find new ways to think about the game. And, honestly, I'm struggling to find ways to do that. There seems little to talk about on the boards, or even to think about on my own time. I'm still doodling around in my mind with finding a campaign architecture I like, but it's a hard problem, and one I don't expect to lead to much common-ground or interaction with other players. There's always "write ANOTHER scenario," but I find that to hold only so much interest, and anyway I'm still waiting for the last round to come out from Ares.

So, I could either (a) complain about Ares' production schedule, or distribution channel, or marketing, or (b) try to find some way to add some dimension to the game, that would inspire additional interest and interaction. I was groping towards B.

Honestly I'd be much more inclined toward getting into a game where the online community is active and exploring new things that could be added to the game, than one that is dead because no one can think of anything to talk about except the lack of corporate announcements.

I opened a thread for anyone else interested in this (http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...Rules-interest). If anyone is, please post to that thread. But so far the uptake is quite limited, so I think I'm off in my own bubble on this one anyway.

[Diamondback]

Precisely, Fred--Ares will do what they want to do regardless of what the community thinks, the big question is what can WE do to keep things interesting through their long dry spells.

For example, in Axis & Allies War at Sea, When WOTC put thumbs up butt for the better part of a year between each release, we started creating our own custom stat cards for new units based on what we had--first a few tentative steps with ships that were very close to existing, then the Repaint Reference project I was one of the leads on to create new sister-ships for existing sculpts, and then after five sets when WOTC pulled the plug and told us "if you ain't Magic you ain't sh*t" a team from the Forumini (the largest forum for the game, bigger than the Official Forum after they shot themselves in the feet not once but several times) took over as the official tournament ranking body, then another started putting together new expansion decks and several enterprising folks started offering not-officially-released sculpts via Shapeways for those cards. So, while I'm a purist about wanting to stick to official prepainted miniatures, even though abandoned by WOTC the game plays on...

The point I'm trying to make here is that we, even the handful of us they turn to for advice, can only do so much to influence Ares decisions, and it's only very limited influence at that. Killing the Kissenberth Camel is probably the most dramatic mind-change we'll see from them... The big question isn't "what are they going to do?" it isn't "why won't they do what we want?" or "when are we getting new toys?" it's "What can WE do to extend and add to the game?"

[csadn]

As for the other, let us not speak of such ideas again until the ratio of Attractive Lasses to Ugly Lads in gaming is at least 2-to-1, preferably better. :)

Oh, definitely -- that's the last crack you'll be seeing from me about it. ;)

[Naharaht]

Hasn't the naval version of 'Axis & Allies' more or less cornered the WW2 market?

[Diamondback]

Other than it being Abandonware, you mean? LOL

Mongoose has picked up and launched a 1/1800-scale line, but they're expensive for what you get AND all paint is DIY.

[RotS-Targe]

Little late on this topic, but anyways, on the age groups:
While, in my experience, gamers who focus on historical games tend to be the older crowd, there is still plenty of younger (even younger by "normal" standards) gamers in the market. Also, this game has more to offer than just the historical side of things, personally, I'm not that much into the historical side of things, yes, they interest me, but it takes more than that for me to really be interested. What this game does have, is ships, and cool minis. I've shown this game to a couple of my friends, all around my age, and a lot of them ARE interested, for various reasons, one likes the historical side, another, like me, is into the ships more than anything else. (now if only some of them were close enough to play!) So, there are things that the younger crowd can like in this game, all you have to do is to show them it and you'll be able to pick up a group. One thing I think is an issue is that there isn't much of a way for people to find it, as far as I know, nobody in the area plays it, which could make it difficult for people to be willing to pick it up. I still count ordering the starter as a gamble, mostly because, for all I know, I'm the only person in the area who has it.

Having organized play would be great, but I think a good start, something we can easily do, is to just have a presence at the FLGSs around us. Instead of playing in our homes, go to a store where other people might be interested, have a couple extra ships sitting around so people who are interested can handle them and get an idea for them, You probably won't get someone by your table every time, and those who do stop by often will just watch, ask a couple questions, and then leave, but you do get the occasional person who will stop by and stick around.

[Kentop]

I wouldn't expect Ares to do anything. The real question there is whether they would they block any fan efforts.

I think conceivably the fans could create something decent.

There already is an IOS app...for a "Napoleonic Naval Wargame" called Eight Bells. It works great. It's fun just to create ships and organize fleets. You can actually apply it to SOG just for it's fleet management tools. Check it out.

[Graver]

Having organized play would be great, but I think a good start, something we can easily do, is to just have a presence at the FLGSs around us. Instead of playing in our homes, go to a store where other people might be interested, have a couple extra ships sitting around so people who are interested can handle them and get an idea for them, You probably won't get someone by your table every time, and those who do stop by often will just watch, ask a couple questions, and then leave, but you do get the occasional person who will stop by and stick around.

I agree 100%! I have introduced so many players to Wings of Glory by setting up games at the local FLGS and hope to do the same with Sails of Glory!

[kenji]

I agree 100%! I have introduced so many players to Wings of Glory by setting up games at the local FLGS and hope to do the same with Sails of Glory!

I for one will be curious to hear about your observations when you run the SGN demos and games at your FLGS.

Please keep us in the loop.

[7eat51]

Honestly I'd be much more inclined toward getting into a game where the online community is active and exploring new things that could be added to the game, than one that is dead because no one can think of anything to talk about except the lack of corporate announcements.

I am not sure how well this would work, Fred, but another option is a play by email game. I participated in one on the 'Drome, and not only was it enjoyable, it brought a group of us together from around the world. Every few days, we would submit our three maneuvers, and the host would play them out, taking pictures after each maneuver.

Similarly, we played a Skype game in which the host used an overhead projector and the participants stated which maneuvers they wanted to make while he executed them. It was a great way to spend an afternoon.

[Warspite]

We have a large gaming group for axis and allies war at sea at our FLGS (JBC waterloo canada) beyond playing as a group every sunday I and others have run numerous tournaments, events etc for years that has grown interest in our group and kept the interest in the game. While WAS is a "fleet" game and SOG is more a "captains" game I think some of what we have down with War at sea can be borrowed for sails of glory which some of our war at sea group is branching out into.

The most important thing though for building a SOG community at your FLGS is having others see you playing so they can watch and ask questions and they know that if they get into the game there is people playing that is the best advertising you can have.