If Ares does the War of 1812 as an expansion set instead of additional ship packs, would you participate in a Kickstarter to fund it?
Yes
No
Not sure
Would You Participate in a Kickstater for a War of 1812 Expansion?
If Ares does the War of 1812 as an expansion set instead of additional ship packs, would you participate in a Kickstarter to fund it?
I would think that they would just be ship packs. There would not be any new rules to introduce like the difference between WGF and WGS.
I would participate, but why did you phrase this as "instead" ?Originally Posted by Coog
I think that KS is an amazing vehicle for a small business to fund projects and assess market size for a product.
I guess I don't see why they wouldn't do it as a KS project.
I'd have to know more about the ships and, more importantly, the wait time until products would be expected to arrive. I'm not a KS pro, but this might be too similar to the base SoG campaign to have much traction?
However, I do think a spin off involving pirates would be very successful on KS.
I hope that if Ares do this, they will wait a while so that our finances can recover from the Kickstarter, which has just finished.
Just seeing how interested players are in the War of 1812 for SOG. There are games on KS in which am interested, but I would not necessarily allocate the sums of money necessary to make participation worthwhile. There may be folks out there that can drop $200 or more at a time on projects but for me, and assume quite a few others, I really have to like the project, like the current SOG project, to make that kind of investment.
I for one need at least a year, probably closer to two, to bounce back from THIS one!
The problem with too much Kickstarting is, if you use it too much it becomes a full distribution channel, distro's and F- and NSFLGS's (look at the problems our European crewmates have getting WGF and WGS at their local shops!) get cut out of the loop, they get annoyed and refuse to support the product... it really is a bit of a gamble about how to use KS effectively. As long as it's kept focused on launches, or specific niche products that there isn't enough demand for a full "worldwide distribution" run of that are KS Exclusive and won't compete with the retailers and the line sold through them, then it can work. If it gets like some games where the Kickstarter is their marketing and distribution all in one, the rest of the industry will tell 'em to pound sand.
I feel War of 1812, and probably even Golden Age of Piracy are each close enough to the SGN that a KS is probably not needed for general release. A small KS program now and then to fund some niche or specialty ships that may not have a huge mass-market appeal could be good as discussed in another thread recently.
If they decide to do something in the ancient or dark ages period that could justify a big KS since it would be a significant change of rules, terrain, options, etc.
Either way though, I think a year of typical Wave X ship releases is in order before they try anything like this again.
Remember Ares was only asking for $30,000. What ended up transpiring was a phenomenal success because of peoples passion for this specific product. I agree that a balance needs to be struck for business sake and further success. The money they pulled in from KS will help greatly advancing the next few projects into the pipeline. I also agree that War of 1812 and Piracy based versions compliment each other nicely. Both of which I'd like to see. These launches could be supported by Starter Set and initial wave sales. The further expansions into other periods could benefit from a realistic boost provided by KS and a little support from us. We are some of Ares best customers and sounding board. Let's just see where this initial release takes us.
I want to make it through my first full convention demo before thinking about anything else.
Not for a year at least
I would support an expansion Kickstarter if there were Kickstarter exclusives again, but I'd rather they just release expansions through retail channels, so I can support my local store.
While this project was a roaring success, I have a hard time seeing the net proceeds financing a great deal in the way of future releases.
Here is my "back of the envelope" guestimated income statement walk through for Ares for the project.
Ares has grossed about 275,000 on the Kickstarter.project
A few more dollars may come in from backers adding extras post KS, but some of the pledges will turn out to be uncollectable.
I'll call that even.
For a product like this, the wholesale price is often somewhere between 50% and 60% of suggested retail list price and direct manufacturing cost is often about half of that (+/-).
The KS price is somewhere between wholesale and retail, but in addition, Ares needs to include in this the shipping costs from China to their facility in Indiana(?)
Let's say that their cost of manufacturing and shipping is 50% of the KS "price".
That leaves them half of the KS total 137,500.
Kickstarter gets 5% of the gross to run the project (13,750)
That leaves 123,750
The funds clearing cost is about 3% (8,250) (Paypal in the US)
That leaves 115,500
Ares is picking up the entire cost of shipping to the consumer in the US and now also most of the cost of shipping for product outside the us.
I would estimate that at 12% of sales (33,000)
That leaves 82,500.
Now we are down to an amount something roughly analogous to Gross margin.
Out of this, Ares has to pay for the general costs of running their business
(rent, utilities, clerical, insurance, and the all-important misc costs).
Since they already have an existing business and SGN represents incremental sales,
this is a cost accounting allocation that could be set at anything,
but to be equitable with their other product lines I'll call it 10% (27,500).
That leaves 55,000.
There are also the specific costs of designing the models, building the prototypes, creating the artwork,
designing the packaging, travel to various locations around the world to arrange for production and distribution.
I have no idea what this would cost, and some of it will be amortized over more than just the sales from the KS project,
but 8% of sales hardly seems excessive and could well be very low (22,000)
That leaves 33,000 (and I may well have missed some costs).
This is what is left for the Ares guys and the game designers to make some money out of all this.
If something is left, they can put it back into the business.
Last edited by RichardPF; 04-16-2013 at 23:38. Reason: fixing typos
I love it when Bruce crunches the numbers.
As to 1812, hmmm,not being US based I don't have the affinity for that fight, so I have to say I'd prefer to see more on European matters. Australian matters are a non-starter there just aren't any! Unless you want to run a campaign of shipping convicts from Britain to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) where the only combat is against nature.
So I'd like to see the Spanish, Dutch and Russians, the Anglo_Dutch Wars, the pirate wars in the Mediterranean etc. Some of that crosses over with the War of 1812 but a specific KS for that...maybe a campaign pack similar to the starter sets with four/six ships included and specific rules for the lakes combats and some specific terrain. Boxed set $100-120 I'd probably buy that but $100's maybe not.
Hey, Australia was at the heart of one of the most gripping naval battles of our lifetime (as I'm about the same age as you).
It lasted less than two weeks in September of 1983.
AND AUSTRALIA WON!!
Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi
An d i bet if they could have sunk Australia II they would have! Secret weapon of the winged keel, might be worth trying that on a frigate.
If a KS is needed to fund a production run, by all means, once the wallet has recovered. If a KS is not needed to fund production, normal retail is fine.
Bruce some of the costs you reference are already covered because Ares is already a profitable business with acclaimed products. I am not disagreeing with your point that a new product launch costs big bucks. But seeing as how we built the HMS Victory and the USS Constitution with our contributions I could see some of the capital from this KS "helping" new ideas along.
I would hope that Ares could provide some support of The War of 1812 via normal wave releases instead of a KS. And I agree... we just wrapped up this KS/Cash Dump - if a KS was planned, then timing would be key in terms of the level of my support.
Just wondering, however, what products would folks like to see (regardless of whether or not it is retail/KS) for 1812? Which ships/classes/maps(?)/accessories would you expect?
There are some, like me, whose focus is on the War of 1812 anyway. I limited my pledging to this KS because of this. I'd rather spend on the later 18 lbs class frigates and the French 40s as well. I would support an 1812 expansion if that is the correct term, whether it was through KS or retail ship sets. Of course I'd like to see Anglo-Dutch wars also!
As to the ships to expect, you'd need all the smaller rates or unrated ship classes plus the lakers. So, brigs in several classes (Cruzier, USS Niagra), ship-sloops (USS Wasp), several different types of schooners, cutters and singled masted sloops. This is in addition to the post 1800 classes of heavy frigates, which presumably could be part of other ship waves anyway. We can't forget 64 gun SoL (HMS Africa).
Eric
Not this year...
I could point out: I live in the US, but *where* I live is almost entirely uninvolved with that conflict as well.
So I get to be "creative".... >:)
Other than that it's a decade and a half too late, I'd really like to see the Republic of Texas Navy included and the Texan War for Independence...
Here's a link to a thread I posted on the naval conflict:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...The-Texas-Navy
Here's a bit more of the action by the Texas Navy where sail powered ships of the Texas Navy went toe to toe with British built steam powered warships which had British officers and mixed crews of British and Mexican seaman.
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...le-of-Campeche
I voted not sure.
I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.
Concur, not likely. Maybe next year for Pirates of the Caribbean.
Instead of 1812, the Barbary wars would make more sense. Might even come up with marine units :)
Triremes? I was thinking Lepanto, but realize that this system is designed for small actions involving a handful of ships at a time; major fleet actions will require massive table or floor space. So it seems to me, that they could come up with a different time frame each year and add a dozen basic ships to the mix. Of course then you could start what if battles that would be somewhat different. Roman quad vs a xebec?
The other thing is, the bicentennial of most of the other mentioned events has come and gone, while War of 1812 Bicentennial will go into 2015--Ares is probably thinking that for a first expansion because it's closely related to and thus expands the Royal Navy for the Napoleonic Wars, and that a huge historical anniversary tie-in is a once-in-a-lifetime marketing opportunity.
As far as the wargaming public is concerned 1812 has come and gone, and the world has moved on. If they wanted to catch an 1812 wave they needed to be doing this a over a year ago as indeed they nearly did)
Barbary wars and US frigates already seem to be in the production schedule
Looking forward to this release as well.
Absolutely! Those will also lend themselves well to some of the educational events I would like to set up. "History through games"Looking forward to this release as well.
Maybe in the UK, and I can see why, but it is still popular here in the US. Why do you think Ares is producing the Constitution? As said before, the US is their primary market.
With the 200th anniversary of the bombarbment of Fort McHenry in September 1814 and Francis Scott Key being inspired to write "The Star-Spangled Banner", I think another wave will occur.
Last edited by Coog; 04-18-2013 at 11:00.
Sorry, but I'm not sure the only interest in the War of 1812 was the anniversary. Otherwise there should be no interest in the Battle of Trafalgar again for at least two more years ( 210th anniversary which isn't really that interesting anyway ) and the entire market for SGN will fall out in a couple years after the anniversary of the end of the Napoleonic Wars ( 2015 )?
Anniversaries can bring spikes of interest but are hardly the basis for a market IMO.
I must admit that I didn't pay a lot of attention to the naval actions of the 1812 until getting involved over here, but I've really been enjoying learning more of those events since then and it's been getting me very interested in looking forward to those ships and scenarios coming out.
I'm not saying there is NO interest, that would clearly be absurd. But the anniversary "bow wave" has been and gone. Avalon Hill made a mint out of tying in their release of WSIM as a "1776 bicentenary" game, releasing it the year before. We weren't that far off being able to do the same here.
Maybe, but if anyhting more of an aftershock. I'm just going with the mood I'm getting from my US wargaming chums here.
Yeah, we'd just about won by this time 200 years ago, plus we were invading France - roll on 7th October :D
I'm sure that is what The Honourable Sir Edward Pakenham was thinking.Yeah, we'd just about won by this time 200 years ago, plus we were invading France - roll on 7th October :D
Just a footnote of history
What might be worth thinking about would be taking the basic system and "resetting" the scale to make a system that worked well for much smaller ships, gunboats etc. I could see that being extremely popular (and having players purchasing vessels in rather large numbers - for frigate actions in 1812 the opportunities for large-multiple sales of each sculpt is pretty low.
Gunboats & other unrated vessels are way down on my interest chart, and not worth the trouble of resetting the scale.
TBH to give frigate actions justice you really need to reset the scale. And since thats where 1812 sits.....
And for the fans of pirate actions, that's going to mostly involve small ships.
I concur here. Most of the Barbary xebecs were small ships, as were most pirate ships since they needed to be fast and weatherly. Larger schooners and brigs should not be a problem at the current scale, however smaller ships and gunboats mounting a single gun may be. Something to think about when planning that cutting out scenario.
Eric
From a marketing perspective, I would choose pirates over 1812, regardless of anniversary tie-ins. I think the broader public is familiar with pirates and not with 1812. SoG, like WoG, will attract general gamers and not just harder core historical wargamers.
From a personal perspective, I would love an 1812 expansion; however, I would like all types of expansions - Anglo-Dutch, Russian-Swedish, Spanish, etc.
Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.
Are we nerds, or has Western Civilization died?The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.
Say it ain't so! I know as well as the two of you that you are correct but history has always been made by those who stand apart from the rest.
I hope those are your thoughts and not Ares.Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.
Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals.
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