Scale Conversion--1/1000 to 1/700

[Nightmoss]

I've been contemplating converting a number of ship cards and maneuver deck cards from SoG to 1/700 scale to use with a few of the Black Seas ships. So I'm going to ask what is probably a stupid question, but am I correct in assuming that 1/1000 for SoG and 1/700 for Black Seas are likely metric and not Imperial measurements? A SoG ship card measures 41mm x 71mm and a maneuver card is 50mm x 75mm (if I measured accurately). Using some online conversion tables should be relatively easy, but I needed to confirm what knowledgeable folks here would know.

The main purpose for doing this conversion is to use one or both of the two SoG solo rule sets for some play with the Black Seas ships.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Cheers!

[Diamondback]

Scales are ratios of "model/map to actual size," and while technically agnostic of measurement systems the "multiples of 25" (eg, 1/700) scales work better in metric while "multiples of 12" (eg, 1/720) are better in Imperial.

Multiply by ten then divide by seven and Bob's Your Uncle, simple as that. The game was designed in metric, so measuring in millimeters will be both easier and more precise.

[Bligh]

Thanks for the clarification put in your usual succinct manner DB. I am sure it will help a number of our shipmates intent on pursuing Jim's intentions. The only thing putting me off doing this is the parsimonious attitude I have developed about burning vast amounts of printer ink on producing large cards in any quantity. Even doing a set or five with backs of ordinary cards cost me about £44 quids worth of inks. With the time involved cutting them out, photo print card and all, it would probably not have been more expensive to buy the ships just for the cards which I did for the cards I wanted for my Langton models.
However, if you are having to go down the route for the 1/720s I hope you have access to a works printer and an understanding administrator. One of the not so good perks of being retired. My old admin secretary would knock out just about anything I needed in a couple of minutes.
If any of you do try this new card out for your games please let me know how you progress with it and how well it translates to the larger sizes in practice.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Scales are ratios of "model/map to actual size," and while technically agnostic of measurement systems the "multiples of 25" (eg, 1/700) scales work better in metric while "multiples of 12" (eg, 1/720) are better in Imperial.

Multiply by ten then divide by seven and Bob's Your Uncle, simple as that. The game was designed in metric, so measuring in millimeters will be both easier and more precise.

Thanks DB. I do believe this answers my question. I did find an online scale converter at this site: http://www.scalemodelersworld.com/on...rter-tool.html Which if I used it correctly means 1 mm in 1/1000 converts to 1.426 mm in 1/700? If so, then a 41 mm x 71 mm ship card converts to 58.57 mm x 101.42 mm? The maneuver cards would then be 71.41 mm x 107.14 (original size at 1/1000 is 50 mm x 75 mm).

Thanks for the clarification put in your usual succinct manner DB. I am sure it will help a number of our shipmates intent on pursuing Jim's intentions. The only thing putting me off doing this is the parsimonious attitude I have developed about burning vast amounts of printer ink on producing large cards in any quantity. Even doing a set or five with backs of ordinary cards cost me about £44 quids worth of inks. With the time involved cutting them out, photo print card and all, it would probably not have been more expensive to buy the ships just for the cards which I did for the cards I wanted for my Langton models.
However, if you are having to go down the route for the 1/720s I hope you have access to a works printer and an understanding administrator. One of the not so good perks of being retired. My old admin secretary would knock out just about anything I needed in a couple of minutes.
If any of you do try this new card out for your games please let me know how you progress with it and how well it translates to the larger sizes in practice.
Rob.

Rob, if I do follow through on this it wont be an extensive exercise for exactly the points you've made. I wouldn't go beyond standard paper and most likely would seal them in laminate or card sleeves? I have a cheap color printer I may try a test on, which if at all reasonable in results I'll post here.

Cheers.

[Diamondback]

Let me give you another illustration, my workaround to account for different ship lengths reported in different sources.

Take the original building draught for HMS Victory, for example.

We know this is a 1/48 scale drawing, and the scanned hardcopy measures 703x1905mm. If we expand the drawing to the size of the actual ship (multiply by 48), we would have a stupefyingly huge sheet of paper 33744mm x 91440mm, or three hundred feet from one edge to the other. Then to convert that to SOG nominal scale, we divide by 1000 and get a drawing 33.744 x 91.44mm.

[Bligh]

Rob, if I do follow through on this it wont be an extensive exercise for exactly the points you've made. I wouldn't go beyond standard paper and most likely would seal them in laminate or card sleeves? I have a cheap color printer I may try a test on, which if at all reasonable in results I'll post here.

Cheers.

Thanks for your answer Jim, and excellent advice.

I always use Mayday sleeves for my cards but obviously this will not fit the new scale so I would now also laminate in the same way I have done for an oversize one off of Movement cards, ship card, base card, and ship mat, for demo purposes at shows, where it is far easier and quicker to show a group of newbies the works all together like a flip chart rather than tour round the table explaining the same thing half a dozen times to each individual.
For one or two ships that would be quite a lot cheaper and on plain paper use far less ink on standard setting rather than photo quality.

Rob.

[Nightmoss]

First test of rescaling an SoG ship card. Getting images to follow metric conversions has been something of a challenge, especially when it comes to printing. I'll follow up with the maneuver deck cards, which I will not be printing in color or flooding photos here.

If folks don't wish to see this content I'll certainly refrain as this is the Sails of Glory forums. Cheers!

[Bligh]

Looks to work pretty well Jim.
Thanks for a glimpse of your work.
As long as you don't add movement cards or anything else I can't see a problem.
You have just illustrated the fact that it can be done.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

A good first experiment, Jim; we shall watch your developments with great interest. :)

[Nightmoss]

Looks to work pretty well Jim.
Thanks for a glimpse of your work.
As long as you don't add movement cards or anything else I can't see a problem.
You have just illustrated the fact that it can be done.
Rob.

Rob, just so I'm clear on what I should or shouldn't be showing, you're saying I should not share any photos of rescaled maneuver cards even if I were to lay them out in an AAR? I certainly don't wish to violate any forum or Ares rules/regulations. Thanks.

[DeRuyter]

I was kind of curious about that statement myself. You are in fact showcasing more ways to play using the SoG rules and game system if not the models themselves. Not say promoting another rules system on the SoG forum.

[Bligh]

Chaps. I am simply applying the rules as I understand them from what is used on the Drome.
As far as I know Ares has no problem with producing cards which are not a copy of the ones in production, For instance ship cards with different ships on them, or aircraft they do not make. However, they did not allow us to publish sets of the movement cards in toto. A set of cards which can be enlarged by us, can soon be reduced back to the original size by someone else. I think an example of a couple at the new size would be OK. No way am I going to risk upsetting Ares, and bringing down a blanket ban on reproducing any of their printed products.

Rob.

[TexaS]

Some have already left maneauvre cards in the pictures in AARs.

As long as it's only a few and not in perfect angle for reproduction I would be surprised if they complained. Besides, making black and white copies would probably make them even less dangerous.

[Nightmoss]

Chaps. I am simply applying the rules as I understand them from what is used on the Drome.
As far as I know Ares has no problem with producing cards which are not a copy of the ones in production, For instance ship cards with different ships on them, or aircraft they do not make. However, they did not allow us to publish sets of the movement cards in toto. A set of cards which can be enlarged by us, can soon be reduced back to the original size by someone else. I think an example of a couple at the new size would be OK. No way am I going to risk upsetting Ares, and bringing down a blanket ban on reproducing any of their printed products.

Rob.

Rob, I'm not going to risk getting The Anchorage into jeopardy with Ares so I'll refrain from posting any photos.

Warlord did just announce merchant ships along with schooners being released in the near future, so I might try some ship cards for fun. I also just received the Santisima Trinidad, which is massive in 1/700. Did the Stats Committee ever decide on the appropriate numbers for a ship card? I've seen no indication that Ares is going to follow up with their 1/1000 version.

Cheers.

[Bligh]

Thanks for the update Jim.
Not sure if anything definite was decided about the Santisima.
Either, Dave Manley, DB, or Chris, Cptn. Duff may be able to enlighten you.
Reminds me that I need to complete the one that Clipper sent me.
Everything has been on hold for the last year whilst we sorted out the house extension.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

I'm not sure I'm following this conversation correctly. Does this mean that I should refrain from posting my modified sideslip cards since I used the originals as templates?

[DeRuyter]

I think as long as your modified card cannot be replicated as a copy of an original Ares card, hence risking a copyright infringement, then it should be ok. Rob is the final arbiter though (unless Andrea weighs in).

[Bligh]

No one seems to have worried us about anything which they do not actually produce. i believe that your altered cards fall into that category. It seems to be just stuff that can be ripped off which may effect their sales that cross the line.
If I hear different I will let you know.
Rob.

[TexaS]

We who were in the stats commitee did not discuss Santissima Trinidad.

I have seen discussions here on the site though. Her great number of guns often overshadow her less than fantastic broadside weight.

[Diamondback]

"Were"? As far as I'm concerned, even if we've all been busy with other things the Committee is still open for business anytime we're ready to reconvene. I've finally got most of the existing ship data indexed and am starting to work out upper/lower limits for filling in some of the gaps like Second and Sixth Rates... :)

Not to mention that a full deck of useless POS obusiers made ST a de-facto three-decker with a very high side profile to catch incoming hits.

[Bligh]

My next comment is obvious then Jonas/ DB.
We need the stats committee to reconvene and give us their wisdom on this matter if they would be so good.
Rob.

[TexaS]

Well... The fact that the last thing written in that part of the forum was in September 2016 made me think of it in past tense.

[Nightmoss]

Whenever you gents get together I'd be more than pleased to take your stats and apply them to a stand in ship card for Santisima Trinidad. Until such time that Ares comes out with their own ST version I'd stick with using the consensus here.

As for my current project of rescaling SoG to 1/700 I came across this older article on Boardgame Geek that some will find interesting, if not amusing. Going large. . .is an understatement.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/139...t-how-small-yo

[Bligh]

Certainly is a bit of good fun Jim.
However, there is no way that I am about to proceed with making landscape and fortifications at that scale. I would need a bigger house to harbour it all.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

Wow and I thought using 15mm ships was large!!

[Nightmoss]

Some additional progress on my scale conversion of SoG cards to a scale that will work with the 1/700 ships from Black Seas. I still need to find card sleeves that will work with the ship cards and maneuver cards, but with the self adhesive magnetic sheets and magnets in the base of the ships I can either have the ships resting just on the ship card or raised up on a 1/8 thick acrylic base. Photos attached (as I'm only showing ship cards I trust this wont be a problem?).

[Bligh]

No problem as far as I can see jim. its not as if you are producing the whole set or anything.
My but the whole set up does look good though.

Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Here's a question for the SoG Developer folks here and the stats committee. How 'busted' would the game get if one used 1/700 ships (with Ares scaled up ship cards) along with the original 1/1000 Sails maneuver cards and decks? I started working on some of the ships again and started to wonder just how impacted movement would be using the original cards? See a two photos. If I were to take this to an actual game I know range and other factors would likely have to be adjusted, but for now I'm just interested in tabletop movement. Thanks.

[Diamondback]

A 1/700-scale ship using unaltered cards would be a slower "scale speed." Maybe play two cards at Backing for Backing, one at Full for Battle, and two at Battle for Full.

[Bligh]

Certainly save a whole lot of money and chunk of printing ink doing it your way gents.
If I ever decide to go large I will bear this in mind.
Rob.

[TexaS]

I think the most correct way to do it would be one and a half move and that could probably be fiddled together by using different sail settings and full/backing.

I personally would probably just use one sail setting higher generally and a full and an extra move at battle for full. I think the full sails is already a bit conservative as is.

[TexaS]

And by the way, what a sunset it must be to give that colour to the sea!

[Nightmoss]

A 1/700-scale ship using unaltered cards would be a slower "scale speed." Maybe play two cards at Backing for Backing, one at Full for Battle, and two at Battle for Full.

I think the most correct way to do it would be one and a half move and that could probably be fiddled together by using different sail settings and full/backing.

I personally would probably just use one sail setting higher generally and a full and an extra move at battle for full. I think the full sails is already a bit conservative as is.

I will try to incorporate your ideas into something that might work. I did print out a enlarged scale set of maneuver cards for the Constitution so I can do a comparison and see how modifying as suggested would work.

[Nightmoss]

And by the way, what a sunset it must be to give that colour to the sea!

A most glorious sunset; "sailors delight" beyond measure.

[David Manley]

I would go for home made cards around 50% larger than the originals. I actually did something very similar around 3o years ago using movement cards and modified Airfix Shannons and it worked - and looked - lovely

[Bligh]

The expensive bit of this looks like being the perspex for the bases if you going to upsize them to match.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

You could always have a generic straight card that would be played each turn to make up the scale difference. After all, it's the angle of the chosen turn card that's important. As an added strategic consideration, it could be played before or after the position of the chosen maneuver card.

To address Jonas' comment, the generic straight could have 3 different lengths, making 3 sails faster.

[Nightmoss]

You could always have a generic straight card that would be played each turn to make up the scale difference. After all, it's the angle of the chosen turn card that's important. As an added strategic consideration, it could be played before or after the position of the chosen maneuver card.

To address Jonas' comment, the generic straight could have 3 different lengths, making 3 sails faster.

Thanks Dobbs. This is where my ignorance of realistic sailing and maneuvering gets in the way of progress. Some generic decks might be the way to go, as enlarging and printing existing decks gets pretty time consuming and expensive.

[Nightmoss]

Continuing the exploration of using official SoG ship maneuver cards versus scale modified cards enlarged, etc. I'm not sure I've appropriately increased the scale for 1/700 based on the cards and photos I've taken. WIP to say the least.

[Diamondback]

Upscaling the cards should just mean copy at around 143% (10/7) and Bob's Yer Uncle.

[Nightmoss]

Upscaling the cards should just mean copy at around 143% (10/7) and Bob's Yer Uncle.

Thanks DB. Then I'm fairly close to what the upscaled measurement should be. Maneuver cards are 50mm x 75mm, which I upscaled to 71.41mm x 107.14mm. Just checking on a hand held calculator 50mm times 143% = 71.5mm and 75mm times 143% = 107.25mm. Good enough for me should I decide to proceed with any more cards.

[TexaS]

Those sideslip card are hard to fake with other means than an upscaled card.

[Bligh]

I'm wondering if the speed of getting across the table will affect the time each ship has gunnery contact as they pass each other. The range sticks certainly need upsizing to the new scale.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Those sideslip card are hard to fake with other means than an upscaled card.

Exactly so. Which is why I'm still considering upscaling a few decks, probably the four from the starter box?

[Nightmoss]

I'm wondering if the speed of getting across the table will affect the time each ship has gunnery contact as they pass each other. The range sticks certainly need upsizing to the new scale.
Rob.

Following on DB's math I'll multiply the range sticks by 143%. If I carry through with this I'll try a solo game and offer some feedback.

[Diamondback]

JIm, David's simple 1.5x might be the easiest option all around. 1.43 is actually pretty close to that ballpark...

[Nightmoss]

JIm, David's simple 1.5x might be the easiest option all around. 1.43 is actually pretty close to that ballpark...

Agreed, that's definitely a nicer ratio to work with. I just scanned A, B, C and D decks, but not the duplicate cards. Time and patience permitting I may start upscaling soon. Thanks, DB.

[Nightmoss]

Without starting another thread I have a quick question that probably doesn't have a quick answer, but I'll throw it out in any case. If both Ares and Warlord Games fudged the scale of USS Constitution to add to its table appeal (and make US buyers happier) what would the scale be for both the Ares '1/1000' version and the Warlords '1/700'? I don't expect to get exact numbers, but is Warlords really closer to 1/600 and Ares more like 1/800? This only applies to the Constitution as looking at Bonhomme Richard there doesn't appear to be anything being out of line with other ships. Thanks in advance if anyone has some ideas on this.

[DeRuyter]

Without starting another thread I have a quick question that probably doesn't have a quick answer, but I'll throw it out in any case. If both Ares and Warlord Games fudged the scale of USS Constitution to add to its table appeal (and make US buyers happier) what would the scale be for both the Ares '1/1000' version and the Warlords '1/700'? I don't expect to get exact numbers, but is Warlords really closer to 1/600 and Ares more like 1/800? This only applies to the Constitution as looking at Bonhomme Richard there doesn't appear to be anything being out of line with other ships. Thanks in advance if anyone has some ideas on this.

Do you mean the general look of the models compared to other ships? Obviously the stats such as LWL or LOA are easy to find and convert, and Constitution is as long (LWL) as some RN 74s if I recall correctly.

[Nightmoss]

Do you mean the general look of the models compared to other ships? Obviously the stats such as LWL or LOA are easy to find and convert, and Constitution is as long (LWL) as some RN 74s if I recall correctly.

At the moment I'm just focusing on the USS Constitution from Ares and whether or not the masts and sails could be used on Henry's 3D print of St. Pavel? Because of the scale discrepancies and from what I see when eye balling it I would say not, but that just started me wondering how far the scale drift is in both Ares line and Warlords products.

Right now there are a number of folks kit bashing the Warlord ships to create 2nd rates as well as other ship rates. There's even one person whose started a conversion of several Warlord ships into the USS Independence.

As I said there's likely not an easy answer, but I wanted to toss it out here.