3D Fortress Modeling Project

[RichardPF]

I will be posting progress on my other SGN related 3D Modeling and printing project soon, but I wanted to create a place for site input to this project.
As you may have read, until posted, the subject of that one will be a surprise.

Over the next days I will be building a fortress model with one or more of my 3D modeling packages that will the migrate from virtual to physical by way of my 3D printer.

I am not looking to make an exact duplicate of a specific fort but more a period representative piece.
To this end, here are three design conversation starter fortresses that still exist today for critique as to suitability for design influence.






Morro Castle - Havana Cuba
I remember seeing this in an old Bob Hope movie and thinking it was quite impressive at the time.
Of the three included in this post it is the largest.
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension would be about 7 3/4"







Castillo Santa Catalina - Cadiz Spain
Rather similar in desing to Morro, but more square yielding a much shorter longest dimension.
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension of this structure would be about 4 3/4"







Drake's Island - Plymouth England
Eastern Coast
Substantially different shape than the others
also the smallest of the three
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension of this structure would be about 3 1/2"

The fort might be modeled as just the structure, or almost as easily as the structure sitting on and surrounded by some amount of rocky coastline.
As much as for anything, the longest scale horizontal dimension was included for each to invite thoughts about overall model size.

[Diamondback]

Is it easier to start big and work down, or the other way?

Personally, I'd start with the most geometrically simple, regardless of size, and then work up. I'd suggest Island and Clifftop fortifications would benefit from some sculpted scenery, beachfront or "low ground" not so much.

[RichardPF]

Is it easier to start big and work down, or the other way?

Personally, I'd start with the most geometrically simple, regardless of size, and then work up. I'd suggest Island and Clifftop fortifications would benefit from some sculpted scenery, beachfront or "low ground" not so much.

At this scale, tiny details will tend to get lost so keeping features larger makes some sense.
I think the main question is how big across and how tall of a thing do you want sitting on a game surface looking at 2" long/tall ships on a 3" long 2" wide base?

The easiest shape is probably a Martello Tower, but where's the fun in building that?
Really, most any shape is pretty easy to model and as long as there is a slight slope or texture to the surface, the 3D printer will be happy.

For a very quick rule of thumb, 1" = 100" (this is actually 1:1200 scale) so a 100 foot cliff is about an inch tall. Put a 40' fort on top of that and you are at about an inch and a half (or a bit more to accurate scale). That would put the guns at about topgallant height.

Earlier fort designs tended to include bastions. These were protrusions at the corners and sometimes at intervals along long straight walls to afford a better firing angle at those trying to scale the walls.
These are architechturally interesting but not really of that much use on the sea facing side of a fort.
The Drake's Island design is basically anti-bastion.

It is interesting to me that the design of the land facing side of Morro Castle and Castillo Santa Catalina are almost identical.
Sea facing sides are similar as well.

A lighthouse is an interesting and common feature that is pretty easy to add.

[David Manley]

Don't model Drake's Island "as is" for this project - most of what you can see there was built in the 1850s (that said I know quite a few gamers who would love to see a range of Palmerson Fort models in 1/1200)

Martello towers - not much "fun" (and Rod already does one) but a pretty standard type of defensive position and so worth doing at some point.

Some small 6-8 gun batteries typical of those that lined the coast of Europe (Spain and the French coasts in particular) would be ideal and probably of more use that anything, although a larger fort would be great as a centrepiece. I've run, and participated in, a few long term AoS naval campaigns and we found ourselves involved in actions using these small batteries dozens of times (and typically 3-4 batteries in a game as they were positioned to defend a bay or harbour)

[David Manley]

Somethng else to possibly think about for the future - Rod based a lot of his building and fort models on Toulon; it might be worth thinking about a similar approach for a different location. La Corunna in Northern Spain has some wonderful coastal and island based castles and fortresses which would not look out of place anywhere in the Iberian peninsula, nor in the Caribbean, possibly Florida (for some of the smaller ones anyway). And you could always sell them via the local tourist authorities as souvenirs (IIRC Forge World used to make some lovely models of Scottish castles which were sold through those castle's gift shops)

[7eat51]

For a very quick rule of thumb, 1" = 100" (this is actually 1:1200 scale) so a 100 foot cliff is about an inch tall. Put a 40' fort on top of that and you are at about an inch and a half (or a bit more to accurate scale). That would put the guns at about topgallant height.

Are you considering including the cliffs, islands, etc. that go along with given forts, and all as single pieces?

[Berthier]

Classic star fort is always a delight, think this one is Goa. Because of the numerous variations on this scattered around the world (S America, West Indies, African and Indian subcontinent coasts, European mainland etc ) any basic 'star' fort would be a wonderful addition.

[Devsdoc]

Hi Buce,
I think the more you add to the fort the more fun you will have. But the less you do to the fort more it could be use for gaming.
Be safe
Rory

[Bligh]

I like the look of the Cadiz one. It epitomises my idea of what a lot of the major harbours along the Atlantic coast of Europe would have had.
Strong enough to shelter warships from maurauding liners and mostly seaward facing outer works.
Bligh.

[Diamondback]

If you go 1/1200, then maybe since Langton seems to have focused on Toulon if you key your efforts on other sites and regions the two lines would complement.

Also, you might look up the Coast Defense Study Group--they might be a helpful resource.

[RichardPF]

Wow! This is great feedback!

For right now I want to create a first fort project that is something of a size, shape, and design that the folks who regularly participate on this site would think reasonable for use in the game.
If it works out well, we'll see where it all goes from there.

My goal is to have a preliminary model design by this coming Friday and let that percolate for comments for a week or so.
Then fire up the printer and see what comes out.

At this point I am probably leaning towards something that sort of resembles Castillo Santa Catalina, but on a rocky bluff something like Morro Castle.
I took a look at Castillo de San Anton in La Caruña as a result of comments. It looks quite intriguing as well.
The entire island/peninsula could be modeled and would only be about 7" long at 1:1000 scale, quite doable actually.

[Sea Gull]

Looking forward to this Bruce.

[Green flash]

They all look good, but I would have to pick Morro or Cadiz

[Horatio]

All very interesting, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Is this just for personal use or are you planning to sell these fortifications?
Don

[RichardPF]

All very interesting, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Is this just for personal use or are you planning to sell these fortifications?
Don

If I am able to come up with something (or somethings) that are worthwhile, it would be great if there was a way that others could have some of them.
But I don't know that I would want to make a business out of it or anything formal like that.

[RichardPF]

Castillo de San Anton in Spain

As mentioned earlier, the entire island/peninsula would be about 7" long in 1:1000 scale

This is probably a bit large for me for a first project.
I probably want to build something that is "in the style of" rather than an exact duplicate for the first one at least
so that getting sufficient documentation and modeling exact details does not slow things down too much,
but this is an impressive structure.

[Cmmdre]

Worthy fortress to style your project after. Would be fun to try and run past the ramparts.

[Bligh]

If I am able to come up with something (or somethings) that are worthwhile, it would be great if there was a way that others could have some of them.
But I don't know that I would want to make a business out of it or anything formal like that.

You could always sub contract the work out. One model and a vac forming machine, and you're away.
Bligh.

[Sea Gull]

You may also consider putting the design on Shapeways once you've proved the concept. Let them print it, send it and deal with all the admin. Allows you to concentrate on the designing aspect.

-Note: I know nothing about how Shapeways works with regards to designs etc. All I know is I see something useful that I like and they print it and send it to me.

[7eat51]

Bruce, I think it is safe to say that whatever you choose to build, you will have a ready audience here to appreciate, and provide feedback to, your work. Your knowledge and expertise is truly appreciated, and you have brought some real excitement to us.

We eagerly await your creations.

[The Barrelman]

I can't wait to see (lots of posted pics) what comes out of those wonderful toys (3D printers) to make your games more enjoyable.

[RichardPF]

Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

[Bligh]

Bruce, I think it is safe to say that whatever you choose to build, you will have a ready audience here to appreciate, and provide feedback to, your work. Your knowledge and expertise is truly appreciated, and you have brought some real excitement to us.

We eagerly await your creations.

Aye to that. Aye!
Bligh.

[Bligh]

Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

Looks simply grand to me Bruce.
Bligh.

[Sea Gull]

Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

Looks great. I'd have that no problems. If you say it's far from final, I believe you ... but I'm now really curious to see the final version.

[Berthier]

Bruce that's very impressive, it's a great benefit to all of us to have someone with your skills here.

[Skullduggery]

You could always sub contract the work out. One model and a vac forming machine, and you're away.
Bligh.

I would love to try that out on my vac formers.

[Diamondback]

Off to an impressive start! Looking forward to watching it develop...

EEK! ANOTHER one?! LOL

[RichardPF]

I have added a few more details to the fort model.
As I had mentioned before, building the 3D models for printing is a good bit different than building them for animated video or video games.
The object must be built as a single solid piece.
You can't "cheat" and add detail as a surface image.
When modeling for other uses, bits can also just be left hanging here and there if it suits the object and provides interesting detail.
This modeling style is, for me, a new and interesting problem and challenge.









I hope to have "first plastic" printed on this by the end of this coming weekend.

[Bligh]

Looks superb Bruce.
I will get one of those if I can even before the ships come out.
Bligh.

[7eat51]

Bruce, you are making our mouths water, and are keeping us somewhat occupied as we await the release of SoG.

What is especially nice is seeing this from start to finish. I enjoyed all of the extra discs on the LotR trilogy. This is kind of like that in that we are allowed a peek behind the scenes. Looking forward to this weekend if all goes well for you.

[RichardPF]

Fort with the next round of changes.

As it goes now, changes will be more in the details and harder to notice without being specifically pointed out.
While I have added a few smaller new structures to the fort model, I am also starting to add details with an eye towards what would make the 3D print work better.

In this update that has primarily involved adding details that break up larger flat horizontal surfaces and minimizing undercuts.
In this context, an undercut is an area of object surface directly above an open space.

To that end, I have closed the gates at each end of the entrance to the fort.
If you look at the previous update, that had created a tunnel through the longest building which would be hard for the 3D printer to deal with without substantial internal supports that would need to be manually removed (and would leave marks without significant amounts of filing and scraping).

I have also not added the openings under the overhangs extending into the central square from the other three buildings facing the square.
These would have been natural and easy additions that would certainly have been added a model destined for other than a 3D printer.
In this model, they appear as solid protrusions.









There are still a few details to add (such as the guns that are why all this is here), a bit more breaking up of flat horizontal areas with miscellaneous details, and a couple of technical modeling details to make sure that there are no "problem" polygons.

I will probably take this first one to the printer without the addition of any terrain around and under the fort just to keep things a bit less complex for now.

[Berthier]

How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

[7eat51]

Wonderful stuff Bruce.

Minimizing undercuts makes sense. Why the concern about larger flat horizontal surfaces? Is that due to it being difficult to make them uniform?

[Horatio]

Looking really impressive, great job.
Don

[RichardPF]

How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

I think that there are a couple of reasons this is possible.
One is that the spans involved are a good bit smaller.
The other is that the planes are probably being printed using a different technology that uses powder and liquid resin rather than plastic filament.
Machines like that have been at a much higher price point and have different limitations, but can do horizontal spans more easily.

[RichardPF]

Wonderful stuff Bruce.

Minimizing undercuts makes sense. Why the concern about larger flat horizontal surfaces? Is that due to it being difficult to make them uniform?

Essentially yes.

I believe that I mentioned once upon a time that there were three different modes that could be used to create the file to build the part: hollow, solid, and strong.

Using the hollow build method, a horizontal surface that was at any level above the bottom surface would have to be built over empty space.
The way that the melted plastic filament is laid down this would quickly cause problems.

The strong build method creates an internal honeycomb structure to support a raised horizontal surface, but there are still short horizontal spans to be bridged which can lead to surface issues (I may be being overcautious with this concern).

The solid build method solves the problem of spans over empty space, but takes far more time and material and the greater material density can lead to warpage.
(Postings about many builds using the hollow method also indicate that it can have a warping problem).

I'm still just a couple of months into this and am learning something every time I do a print.

Hopefully the fort project will push that learning along at an even faster rate.

[RichardPF]

Looking really impressive, great job.
Don

THANKS!

And thanks for the time to all who are following this thread!

[GreenLaborMike]

Excellent stuff. Really really excellent!

[Beowulf03809]

Really interesting info on the different production options there. Thanks!

[Gaz67]

Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

[RichardPF]

How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

There is one other way that the very severe 3D print undercuts can be done.
This method is used in some commercial situations but is time comsuming, expensive, and dangerous.

Some of the 3D printers are able to print with multiple filament spools simultaneously (up to 3 possible).
This can include one spool of PLA type plastic filament and one or more spools of ABS type plastic filament material.

ABS is a more durable material but does not hold fine detail as well.
PLA is able to hold finer detail and, And, AND...

will disolve in some nasty chemicals such as a solution of drain cleaner and water.

In commercial/industrial applications, these chemicals are used in heated ultrasonic tanks to remove PLA support material structures that can then be as elaborate and extensive as necessary to support any shape.
The thing is, these chemicals will also disolve many other materials, like, say human tissue, so must be used with great care.

[GreenLaborMike]

Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

Incredible. Amazing photograph there, Gaz.

[David Manley]

Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

I must drop in and see you sometime. We have a test site up your way and I often stop off at Fort George for a wander about before getting the plane back from Inverness :)

[Diamondback]

There IS a safer way... but it involves a hybrid of stereolithography and traditional techniques. Basically, you SLP a parts kit then manually assemble it by hand.

[RichardPF]

There IS a safer way... but it involves a hybrid of stereolithography and traditional techniques. Basically, you SLP a parts kit then manually assemble it by hand.

Yes tha's true, but I believe that the original question was about how to create the undercuts seen on some of the available Shapeways objects.

[Sea Gull]

Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

Can't be the highlands, it's not raining and the sea is too clean !

[Gaz67]

Can't be the highlands, it's not raining

Sir, not only the Highlands, but the Capital of the Highlands, and I'll have you know we do get a certain amount of rain free days per year, I believe our current quota is 3, some years we save them up so we get a full week of sun and sometimes it snows....

I must drop in and see you sometime

Certainly! give me a shout and we shall see what can be arranged.

Incredible. Amazing photograph there

Brazenly stolen from t'internet

Google "Fort George Inverness" for more.

[Sea Gull]

If I remember correctly I was at Fort George doing some filming for a crap film in the 80s. Filmed at the fort beautiful sunny weather in the morning. Went out to the countryside, had some lunch in a marquee, came out for more filming and there was a blizzard. The film unit couldn't get the lighting off the site. That's how I remember Fort George.

[RichardPF]

Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

So by my estimation, the longest dimension of the actual fort is a bit over 2000'
which means at 1:1000 scale, the fort model would be just over 2 feet long.

Do you think that people would want a fort model that big in the game or
would they prefer a scaled down version
or perhaps just the bit at the end of the peninsula?