Discussion about the game bases
As is well known, I am no fan of the model ships, but I can see that they will help some gamers on this site. "Putting my open to all ideas head on" I think you need all the info on the base for the game. But the base does look a little toyish, unlike the plane bases of W.O.G. So anything that would be a new idea for the bases would help the look of the models themselves. Can I also ask "do you think the bases as they look now on the pics, look very thick?"
Be safe
Rory
Not a fan of the base as shown either, looks like a show piece rather than a gaming piece. I'm certain the creative amongst us, don't look at me mind you, will find ways to present the same info on a less substantial base.
A clear blue plastic base, etched with the three firing arcs right and left and the markings for the wind gauges would be all we need. The "colours" of the wind direction sectors around the base could be done by hand afterwards using texta (though the blue base may muck this up) or alternatively by applying coloured contact cut to length. Ok this is all a bit messy but you get the idea.
I have been looking at the idea of producing alternate bases a bit, and see what I believe are some potential challenges to manufacturing alternatives.Originally Posted by Berthier
The height of the base might be a required element based on the depth of the pin.
While pins could be trimmed, my guess is that most would not want to do that.
The depth of the pin may be necessary to hold the ship to the base.
There may be a bit of a Catch 22 going on with this:
- The base needs to be thick to provide the height to cover the pin depth.
- The pin may need to be long to provide enough surface area to hold the weight of a thick base.
Those who have experience with the altitude pegs of the WoW/WoG airplanes have no doubt experienced this peg attachment purchase issue and possibly the peg adhesive that Aerodrome sells.
Then there is the question of how to you grasp the ship to move it.
It seems to me that the sides of the bases are the most natural place to grasp the ships to move them to the position of the line on the card.
If not lifted by the sides of the bases, the other alternatives would be the sides of the hull or somewhere in the riggings or sails like the ends of a spar.
Neither of these seems to me to be as natural (or precise) as lifting the ship by the sides of the base.
Setting the base height issue aside, the information aspects of alternate base designs that do not use the cards might oresent challenges as well.
If the firing arcs and/or point of sail performance areas are different by ship design, producing alternate bases gets even more problematic:
- Etching the firing arcs into the bases would require unique bases for each ship.
- Without etched bases the cards would need to be used which would pretty much negate any differential of a clear or clear blue base.
As a random base design aside, a design with a pin in the base rather than the ship would seem to make more sense to me,
but until the details of the design can be examined with the actual ships, there may be other considerations at work that are not immediately apparent to me.
Played WoG yesterday. It was a bit funny seeing folks struggle, at times, picking up the planes to move them due to the bases. In some ways, we wished the bases had a little lip or something that would make picking them up a bit easier. With these ships, the last thing I would want to do is resort to picking up the piece by the actual ship portion. The thicker base, though not as attractive, might be a blessing in disguise. Unlike some of the other naval mini games I have seen (but not played), those systems use charts, etc., so the actual pieces did not need to carry information on them other than the ship itself.
Rory, are your issues due to the scale (example not being able to use existing fleets of a smaller scale) or the quality of the sculpt based on the early pics? I really enjoy modeling and painting but unfortunately have such a large backlog of Lord of the Rings (hundreds) and Flames of War (dozens) figures that I couldn't honestly consider getting into another game right now where I had to build and paint my fleet before I can play. This was a big reason I jumped on the XWing game (nice looking prebuilt models) and a strong attraction for me for SoG. I can say that I wish there were kit versions in the same scale for when I want to do them, and I look forward to doing some custom work on the SoG models as well. But the time-value of prebuilt/prepainted really was the push that got me onto this vs. earlier AoS games I've looked at.
Again...this is coming from someone with no existing fleet in a smaller, but well established, scale.
Regarding attachment of ship to base, I will just mention again that if they went with Rare Earth magnets it would eliminate the peg issue and allow for a thinner base if they wanted, but it's pretty late in the process for a change like that. I'm sure production, with pegs, may be underway. If no one has used these for modeling yet, don't fret on the strength or compare them to experiences with the more traditional black disk magnets you may have familiarity with. RE magnets are STRONG for their size. In FoW we often use them to secure turrets to tanks, allowing you to swap out turrets for mounting different guns as well as easier storage and safe table play. I have also seen players mount their vehicles on display bases with a RE and it would hold it even upside down and still pop off easy enough with some pressure for play. A magnet with about the same diameter as a standard model peg, perhaps a little larger, would hold the ship flush and strong on the base and still separate easily when you want.
Well AA already has the magnets.
Are we talking about using magnets for the SoG ships or for 1/1200th scale ships to be mounted on an SoG style base?
Maybe that's an idea for the accessories, extra bases in different sizes (are the bases different sizes for different models? I can't remember). This allows no SoG ships to be mounted to SoG type bases. As we've seen on the WoG site the people there have produced cards for the non official planes. Im sure the members of this commuity can produce cards for non official ships. Or am I rambling incoherently once again?It's either the drink
, or it's the fever
All this talk about how to move the ship. These are not the fragile pewter models we all have built. They look much sturdier, and I'll probably move them by holding the sides of the sails, so I won't care how thick or thin the base is, and will probably make my own if there are no clear blue ones commercially available.
I have both ships and a base in hand now, so I'll try and shed some light on this subject.
This has been the case with most of the Wings players and mounting their planes to my Gimbal Mounts.I have been looking at the idea of producing alternate bases a bit, and see what I believe are some potential challenges to manufacturing alternatives.
The height of the base might be a required element based on the depth of the pin.
While pins could be trimmed, my guess is that most would not want to do that.
This is indeed the case. The pin is mounted on the bottom of the ship and needs length to go thru the clear protective cover, ship card, and down into the base to hold well enough not to come off or move around much.The depth of the pin may be necessary to hold the ship to the base.
There may be a bit of a Catch 22 going on with this:
- The base needs to be thick to provide the height to cover the pin depth.
- The pin may need to be long to provide enough surface area to hold the weight of a thick base.
Those who have experience with the altitude pegs of the WoW/WoG airplanes have no doubt experienced this peg attachment purchase issue and possibly the peg adhesive that Aerodrome sells.
It's very easy and stable to pick the entire gaming piece up and move it around using the edge of the base... nice actually.Then there is the question of how to you grasp the ship to move it.
It seems to me that the sides of the bases are the most natural place to grasp the ships to move them to the position of the line on the card.
If not lifted by the sides of the bases, the other alternatives would be the sides of the hull or somewhere in the riggings or sails like the ends of a spar.
Neither of these seems to me to be as natural (or precise) as lifting the ship by the sides of the base.
The pin has to be in the bottom of the ship as some of them are pretty thin, one of the frigates in the starter set is only about 4-5mm thick in the center (where the pin is). I don't think this is thick enough for a pin in the base to have a firm seal on a ship. I believe Ares got it right on this part.Setting the base height issue aside, the information aspects of alternate base designs that do not use the cards might oresent challenges as well.
If the firing arcs and/or point of sail performance areas are different by ship design, producing alternate bases gets even more problematic:
- Etching the firing arcs into the bases would require unique bases for each ship.
- Without etched bases the cards would need to be used which would pretty much negate any differential of a clear or clear blue base.
As a random base design aside, a design with a pin in the base rather than the ship would seem to make more sense to me,
but until the details of the design can be examined with the actual ships, there may be other considerations at work that are not immediately apparent to me.
RE magnets work great for the hobbyist among us. For Ares, it is an added expense and a very big liability for them. In fact, RE magnets are banned in some countries.
Hey, boss... how much dead-space is there inside the base? Is it enough that you could maybe store the maneuver deck in there, or that it might be possible to build a hollow base that could engage the peg and still hold the deck when not being played?
There is support plastic around the peg hole on the bottom side of the base... so no room to store the maneuver deck. But I'm not sure if the inside of the base would be tall enough to fit a deck under it anyway.
Also, on an interesting note, the SGN cards are going to be a little larger than the Wings cards.
The FoW bases have a bevel on them. I've always flipped them upside down so the bevel was on the underside. This makes them very easy to pick up. I think the thickness of the SoG bases will make them easy to pick up. If there are thinner optional bases, I would suggest putting a bevel on the underside.
The SGN base do have a slight bevel to them, in the same direction as the Wings bases... but it is a lot less of a bevel then those bases. Very easy to pick up.
Keith, can you give us the length & width of the two bases?
I believe that the measurement that you are referring to here is Freeboard.
Freeboard is the vertical distance between the waterline and the deck.
Consulting the dimensions and line drawings I have for the ships in the starter set, that would be about to scale for the HMS Terpsichore.
For a warship of this era, that is quite a small value, and something that I had not considered.
I agree that to do a model of a ship with that little freeboard in this scale, a pin in the base would not be practical.
If the bases are all of the same design (which they really should be for manufacturing sanity), then the pin in the ship is the only way to go.
I've created this new thread and moved all of the posts about the bases here since, while related, it off topic now a little from the accessories line.
SGN only uses one base size, 75x50mm.
Thanks for the term Bruce, that is indeed what I was talking about and the ship that I was measuring.
I never heard discussion of the liability issue on RE magnets before but I understand some of the risks. Interesting about the banning.
Thanks for the details on the size of the ships. I don't think there is much option to the peg based on how you describe a frigate in those terms.
Having a slight bevel is possibly a requirement of the molding process.
I believe that any type of production molding process of a part of this height (as opposed to say, resin or low temp metal casting into flexible rubber type molds) would need to have at least a minimal taper.
Lawrence,
It is not the models themsleves or the scale. Its the "I must buy models (I already have) to play the game". I would go out of my way to help anyone make, paint or rig any ship model I can. I think the scale will not be a issues and I think one could play both sets 1-1200 and 1-1100 in one game O.K. Some may not like this but if the base sizes match I think it would work. As to the models themselves, to me they look 1/2 done, sorry!. This is O.K. as some of you will wish to add more paint, rigging and rat-lines to your S.O.G. models. This may set you thinking I could have a go myself at a whole model. A lot of wargamers play with unpainted or 1/2 painted models. Ship of the line is one (model based) game which you cannot play as well with un or 1/2 painted models. I think this has put them into "They are something superior" box .If S.O.G. models are your way into this part of wargaming, I'm happy to help and would happly play S.O.G with you and get a buzz from your enjoyment of your new fleet(s). In this tread some are taking about handleing them when they are rigged, just pick them up I do (this weekend I'll take some pics of me doing so and post they on this thread). So a lot of people think I hate the models, I do'nt, it is I must buy the whole thing ship and all or not. I think I would be happy to buy the game at the same price with no ships, just the bases, cards and rules. Some think I Hate the game, let them! I do not.
Be safe
Rory
Rory, you could always sell the SGN ships without the other game components. This happens a lot with the Wings planes. If you added a little more paint and some light rigging, you could probably sell them for more then what you paid for them... still without the game parts. Just something for you to think about.
Rory,
You have expressed my sentiments better than I could have, thus my silence on the subject up to this point. I now have upwards of 100 ships, and an AoS game system I thoroughly enjoy, and all for an expenditure well under what it would take to purchase SOG and just a fraction of the ships I now have. I am gaming on a 4' x 8' table. I have a family with one girl in college and another ready in a few years. I don't have the extra disposable funds to throw at another gamng system and models that duplicates what I already have. I can't justify that to my wife and kids.
Like Rory, I would be more than happy to help anyone with the SOG models (rig, paint, modify, etc. to their specifications). I can even say I would enjoy doing so, since the modeling itself is my first love with the gaming second.
Lawrence,
I know what you mean about your backlog of unpainted LoTR figures. I have hundreds of unpainted 28MM Greeks, Persians, Italians, Romans; 1/72 Napoleonics, Normans, Saxons; 20MM ACW, etc. that I am not sure I will live long enough to finish now that I have discovered AoS. I have done nothing but AoS since my first ship Christmas before last.
@Rory - understood. I didn't mean to touch on a sore spot if I did. I am new around here and value the opinions and input of others and was interested in your perspective. I greatly appreciate it!
I like the sculpts of the models from what I can see (especially visible in the Constitution and Victory pics) but am hoping the pics of the painted versions may still be "working set" versions. If that is how they look delivered then it's not too bad for a pre-painted gaming model, will really impress and excite new players, and appears a very good starting point for some enhancement. I think I will eventually pick up some models to build myself as well and am not too bothered by the scale differences. Looking at a frigate it appears the difference in scaled length between 1200 and 1100 is only about 3.5mm and unless I had the models side by side I don't think that's going to be very visible. In my FoW gaming I use armor from a couple different companies and there's some variation there but on the table you can't really tell. Even among the same manufacturer (GW) and game system (LotR) there is variation between the height of figures when I compare models sculpted a few years apart.
@Vol - some of my friends I game with recently jumped into Black Powder with both feet, focusing on Napoleonic for now, but I had to sit that one out. Finances is one big factor but time is the other. I'm looking forward to a game system where the modeling aspect is optional if only for a short time.
Lawrence,
If I have made you uncomfortable about me or my thougths I'm very SorryI hope I said it all on this thread#19. All I would say is "enjoy them, they are good models". I,m like Vol I just do'nt know????? My British Napoleonic 15mm army is made of old and new "Minfigs" they are very different in height and build the older ones are smaller and stringer. At one time if you play S.O.G. with the two scales of ships you will have at some point two ships side by side (Firing or boarding) its what Age of sail is all about.
Be safe
Rory
Keith,
Who would buy base-less ships, I would need the bases for myself?
Be safe
Rory
There are many different rule sets out there. I think a lot of gammers will want the ships without bases to use with them. The price is not much more than metal kits and you don't have to paint or build them.
FOr comparison Langton's use bases as follows:
RESIN MX15 - 40x65mm (frigates)
MX16 - 40x75mm (3rd rates)
MX17 - 40x85mm (3-deckers)METAL MX18 - 50x20mm (unrated)
So they use differnet base sizes for different ratings whereas SOG uses the same for all. Purists may decry the one size fits all but I haven't a problem with it as the this is from the 'design for effect' rather than 'design for accuracy' school. SOG is very much in the first design school, make it easy to play, approachable, quick play, non intimidating. Complexity we can add ourselves if we desire.
Hi Daniel,
That is just a little bigger than a Langton 3rd rater! I have some 4th raters and had to pick 3rd rate or Frigate bases (Langtons) for them. In the end I went with the 3rd rate base as the 4th rate is a smaller ship of the line. So for rated ship I can see it being O.K. but for smaller unrated ships I do'nt known?I can think of no naval sail rules that do this? Would a tank take as much ground spaces as a jeep on a battlefield?
Be safe
Rory
So Keith,
One size fits all, I would need only one base size
Be safe
Rory
Well maybe they are using the concept of sea room. That is in a specific space of time say 2 minutes, a small ship which naturally travels faster might conceivably be anywhere (well almost, wind plays a large factor) in a certain area and a larger ship moving slower "might" be anywhere in a similar area. This is very much Heisenberg's uncertain principle where an electron cant be pinned down to an exact location just an area (excuse my poor physics, the details are a little hazy after thirty years)
So again this might be a design for effect as well as a cost saving measure. Not sure I like it but that's what we have. It's hard to know how this will play out without the full rules set to work with.
They are using one base for easy of production and standardizing the maneuver cards. The cards are what determine how far the ships move, and having a standard starting point to base the length of the arrows off of made things much easier. There is a point to be made about a smaller ship being the same target size as a larger one, but I'm not really sure how much that matters. You could also always use a "shoot at the real thing" house rule.
Daniel,
Your physics is better than mine. We will see when the full games comes out?
Be safe.
Rory
I said I would so here they are. Do'nt have kittens (Or "Ships Cats")
The hand of God and Godess are mine and Janes (My better half). In about 2 years of using the ships I have had to re-touch the ends of the spares once on one or two models. I think the handeling bit was before this thread was spit
Be safe
Rory
Last edited by Devsdoc; 03-31-2013 at 17:41.
Ha, Ha, Ha! That's exactly how I pick mine up Rory! They do just fine. My 12 year old and friends do too and I don't wory at all.
Hi All,
Sorry for bring this up so late in the day. But why do you need the peg? why not glue the ship to the base? If it is hard to do at the factory, could we not do it ourselfs? I know some of us are not good at modeling, but come on we can all glue two clean, flat pieces of plastic together. That would make the bases look so much better, so make the ship less toy-like. By the way how are the mast kept in the hull?
Be safe
Rory
I'm glad they don't.
Since I (like many others) don't like the thick base, I'll have custom bases made up if the Anchorage doesn't sell them.
Problem with that is you'd have to HR extending musket range...
I don't think this is really an option as there is a game card that goes between the miniature and the base. I guess you could glue that down as well, but then you would lose the ship stats that are on the other side of it (they are double sided now). So, to glue it down to the base, you would need to glue the card to the base, the clear cover to the card, and finally, the ship to the clear cover. Of course you could fore go the clear cover and leave your card unprotected for it's life span.
What's another house rule if you are already modifying how the game plays? lol
So Keith,
Is it a card game with some models thrown in? Or a model game with not enough models? Can it try to be both and miss it all? How long would the cards or the ships last if you keep on chargeing them all the time? Sorry for all the. I just don't get it
Be safe
Rory
By the looks of the ship cards it appears that you could just use the card without the model. But unlike the cards for Wings of Glory, there doesn't appear to be a picture of the ship on the card and the visual effect would be somewhat lacking.
There is no "card ship", the card that is inserted in to the base is just the winds zones, firing arcs, and maneuver markings. While it would be possible to play the game with only the base and card, you would not really be able to tell what you were playing since there is no ship depicted on the card.
As to them wearing out, I've been playing Wings for over 5 years and 3 cons a year for the past 3 years. None of my cards or minis show signs of excess ware (a few bent cards from the kids, but that's it).
Hi Keith,
So why the double-sided card that you can not stick down. Sorry only seeing what you and SOG show me. I maybe dumb but I do not get it
Be safe
Rory
I think it is the logs that are double-sided. The logs give the specifics on the ships, with the cards giving class specific info that would be used for all ships in that given class.
Hi Eric,
This I understand. But why the double-sided base card, if all classes of ships have the same wind zone and firering arcs. We are told one size base for all rates of ships. So what is the diffidence on the two sides of the ships base card that can not be stick-down or printed onto the base.
Be safe
Rory
Last edited by Devsdoc; 04-06-2013 at 15:47.
Hi Rory,
I just reread the KS, and yes, the cards are double-sided. I wonder if that statement was unnecessary in that the same side of a card could be used for a different ship of the same class, especially one that would otherwise simply be a different paint. The only thing I can think of is if the second log changes the ship in some fundamental way that would affect firing arcs, etc., e.g. addition of bow-chasers, modifying a deck to add more guns. So if I may, I would like to join you in the confusion.
Eric
The "ship" card also states the name and nation of the ship. As such, it will be double sided to show this. If it was not, you would have a very hard time fielding both A and B versions of the miniature as they would look identical on the table. Having the name and country flag gives enough visual clue as not to mix them up.
Ah! Keith,
Now I get it! A deep base so you can have a long peg from the ship model, So you can trap a piece of card between the base and the ship so I will not mix up which ship is which . Oh! Keith' Straight out of the box and play is one thing. But that is the biscuit! To whom are they aimming this game at?
Thin bases no peg = better looking ships. Sticky backed papier or molded or painted wind zones/ firing arcs. Stick ship to base. Flags on the flag pole and a little label with the ships :- Name, numder of guns and a nice little flag incase you missed the one on the ship.
Be safe
Rory Aged 56
P.S. As you have a ship to hand. How are the masts kept in the hull?
The game is marketed at non hobbyist who want to be playing within 10 minutes of opening the box. It's much easier (and better for sales) for them to make them this way and let us hobbyist modify them to fit our needs. The masts will be glued in (mine came partly assembled and the masts were not attached).
Since the ships will be in the stores in a few months, it's a little late to ask why they did certain things. I've already ordered some thin clear light blue bases with plans to use clear printed labels.
As far as I know, the masts, deck and hull are put together as one piece.
Ed Age 72
Hi Keith,
Thanks for your help. It helps me understand the models better and the game. Also what I (and maybe some members on this site) could do with them to make them look better, but still play the game and enjoy the look of the game
Be safe
Rory
Last edited by Devsdoc; 04-06-2013 at 21:12.
Please keep in mind these are preproduction versions of the ship. The actual sculpt is one level below production (they have added more details) and the paint work is several levels below production standards (and beat up from all the handling, they are my work horses for other products) and these, from what I understand, were used to confirm the locations of different colors, not the final colors/level of detail or crispness. The base is also a level or two below production.
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