Design histories of rated warships... "tracing the family trees"

**Diamondback** · 02-23-2013, 00:32

As Vol and others know, I've been trying to trace the design lineages of as much of the Age of Sail as I can, trying to figure out how much Andrea can proxy with each sculpt he selects. So, here's what I have for the Royal Navy organized by first Rating, then Date of Design Lineage origin, then increasing number of guns. Regardless of time between, I'm grouping descendant designs with their ancestors within the same rating; enlargements or reductions I'm noting in both the ancestor and descendant's entries but not moving across ratings. I'm starting with the 1745 Establishment, which was the first real widespread use of standard 'classes' as we know them today; some corvettes that may not have been rated are also being included along with the 6th Rate post ships they evolved from. Later I might refine by weight of main battery for more precise sorting, and I'll integrate other countries' data in as I find data; I'm starting on the assumption that each class is a 'clean sheet' unless I see at least an alleged ancestor. If anybody has pieces to add to the puzzle, I'd appreciate the help.

I've also got a shipload of captures listed between 3rd and 4th rates I need to narrow down; if anyone cares to refine those with class data I'd appreciate the help. (This is a straight copy-paste of my notes in Notepad, and that area's a straight copy-paste from Wikipedia's "List of Ships of the Line of the Royal Navy" article.) In both areas, I will mark classes that either are themselves or have a close relative confirmed for Sails of Glory release in bold.

1st rate:
1745 Est 100-gun: 2
-HMS Victory 100-gun: 1 (cited as built to plans of 1745 Est 100 HMS Royal George @Wiki, "Anatomy Of" says stretched)
--?1810 HMS Impregnable 104/110-gun: 1
--?-1820 HMS Trafalgar 100/110-gun: 1
--?--1825 Princess Charlotte 104/110-gun: 2
--2nd-rate 1810 Boyne 98-gun (see 2nd Rates)
1786 HMS Royal Sovereign 100-gun: 1
1788 Umpire 100-gun: 3 (Royal George, 1790 & 1810 Queen Charlottes)
1795 HMS Ville de Paris 110-gun: 1
-1804 HMS Hibernia 110-gun: 1 (stretched Ville de Paris)
1797 Caledonia 120-gun: 4
-1823 St George 120-gun: 5 (broadened Caledonia)
1805 Ocean 110-gun: 1 (stretched 2nd-rate Neptune 98-gun)
1805 Nelson 120-gun: 3

2nd rate:
1750 Amend '45 Est 90-gun: 3
-3rd-rate 74-gun Albion: 5
1755 Sandwich 90-gun: 3
1759 London 90/98-gun: 4
1762 Barfleur 90-gun: 4 (downscale of 1714 Royal Willaim rebuild)
1771 Duke 98-gun: 4
1783 Boyne 98-gun: 2
1790 Neptune 98-gun: 3
1810 Boyne 98-gun: 2 (said to be identical to HMS Victory post-Trafalgar rebuild)
1815 Formidable 80/84-gun: 9 (near-copy HMS Canopus/ex-FR Franklin capt 1798)
183x Rodney 90-gun: 2
1840 Albion 90-gun: 3

3rd rate:
1745 Est 70-gun: 7
-1756 Temple 70-gun: 2
1750 Amend '45 Est 70-gun: 1 (1753 HMS Chichester)
1750 Amend '45 Est 80-gun: 1 (1755 HMS Cambridge)
1754 Burford 68-gun: 3
1757 Dublin 74-gun: 7
-1760 Bellona 74-gun: 5
--1761 St Albans 64-gun: 3 (downscaled Bellona)
--1761 Arrogant/Edgar 74-gun: 12
---1763 Ramillies 74-gun: 9
----1765 Elizabeth 74-gun: 8
-----1768 HMS Egmont 74-gun: 1
------1776 Culloden 74-gun: 8 (some stretching)
1759 Valiant 74-gun: 2 (copy of FR Invincible, capt at 1st Cape Finisterre)
-1795 Ajax 74-gun: 2 (lengthened version)
1758 HMS Asia 64-gun: 1
-1759 Essex 64-gun: 2
1759 HMS Fame 74-gun: 1
-1765 HMS Suffolk 74-gun: 2 (loosely based on Fame)
1759 HMS Hero 74-gun: 1
-1759 Hercules 74-gun: 2
1759 Canada 74-gun: 4
1761 Exeter 64-gun: 4 (upscaled 1757 Richmond 32-gun frigate)
1761 Ardent 64-gun: 7 (based on FR Fougueux, capt pre-1761)
1763 Albion 74-gun: 5 (based on 2nd rate 1750 Est 90-gun)
-1777 Inflexible 64-gun (downscale)
1765 Worcester 64-gun: 3
1765 Intrepid 64-gun: 15
1769 Elizabeth 74-gun: 8
1769 Royal Oak 74-gun: 6
-1778 Alfred 74-gun: 6 (enlarged Royal Oak)
1779 Ganges 74-gun: 6
1779 Courageux 74-gun: 4 (copy of French Courageux, capt 1761)
-1802 Lengthened Courageux 74-gun: 2
--1805 Mod Courageux 74-gun: 2
1779 Crown 64-gun: 3
1785 HMS Brunswick 74-gun: 1
1788 Mars 74-gun: 2
-HMS Conqueror 74-gun: 1
1793 HMS Caesar 80-gun: 1
1794 HMS Courageux 74-gun: 1
1794 HMS Plantagenet 74-gun: 1
1794 HMS Bulwark 74-gun: 1
1795 HMS Dragon 74-gun: 1
1795 Temeraire 74-gun copies (11 originals captured): '95 Northumberland: 2 (copy of Impetueux, capt 94)
-1795 Achille: 2 (from Pompee)
-1796 HMS Revenge
-1796 Milford: 2
-1810 HMS Chatham (Pluton/small Temeraire) 74-gun: 1 (plus captured Rivoli)
1795 HMS Spencer 74-gun: 1
1798 Colossus 74-gun: 2
1798 Foudroyant 80-gun: 1
1799 Fame/Hero 74-gun: 9
1800 Swiftsure 74-gun: 2
1800 Repulse 74-gun: 11
1806 Armada/Vengeur 74-gun: 40
1810 Black Prince 74-gun: 4 (reduced Danish Christian VII)
1814 Rochfort 80-gun: 2
1815 Cambridge 80-gun: 1 (copy of ex-Danish Christian VII, capt 1807)
-1839 Indus 80-gun: 1 (stretched Cambridge)
1818 Waterloo 80-gun: 1
1819 HMS Hastings 74-gun: 1
1836 HMS Imaun 76-gun: 1
1841 Hindostan 80-gun: 1 (enlarged Repulse)

need to sort out:
Princess 70 (1740) – ex-Spanish Princessa captured 8 April 1740, hulk 1760, sold 1784
Vigilant 58 (1745) – ex-French Le Vigilant captured 19 May 1745, sold 1759
Portland's Prize 50 (1746) – ex-French L'Auguste, captured 9 February 1746, sold 1749
Mars 64 (1746) – ex-French Le Mars captured 11 October 1746, wrecked 1755
Intrepid 64 (1747) – ex-French Le Sérieux captured 3 May 1747 at 1st Cape Finisterre, BU 1765
Invincible 74 (1747) – ex-French L'Invincible captured 3 May 1747 at 1st Cape Finisterre, wrecked 1758
Isis 50 (1747) – ex-French Le Diamant 56 captured 3 May 1747 at 1st Cape Finisterre, sold 1766
Monarch 74 (1747) – ex-French Le Monarque, captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, sold 1760
Terrible 74 (1747) – ex-French Le Terrible, captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, BU 1763
Fougueux 64 (1747) – ex-French Le Fougueux captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, BU 1759
Trident 64 (1747) – ex-French Trident captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, sold 1763
Magnanime 74 (1748) – ex-French Le Magnanime captured 31 January 1748, broken up 1775
Rubis – ex-French Rubis 52, captured 3 May 1747 at 1st Cape Finisterre, was added to the Royal Navy as a sixth rate of 26 guns.
Jason 50 – ex-French Jason, captured 3 May 1747 at 1st Cape Finisterre, was added to the Royal Navy as a fifth rate of 44 guns.
Severn – ex-French Severn 50/56 (originally the British Severn, taken by the French in 1746), was re-captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, but was not restored to British service.
The ex-French Neptune 70/74, captured 14 October 1747 at 2nd Cape Finisterre, was not added to the British Navy.
Glory – ex-Spanish Glorioso captured 1747, was not added to the British Navy.
Alcide 64 (1743, ex-French Alcide, captured 1755); sold 1772
Lys 64 (1746, ex-French Lys, captured 1755)
Duc d'Aquitaine 64 (1754, ex-French Duc d'Aquitaine, captured 1757)
Foudroyant 80 (1750, ex-French Foudroyant, captured 1758); broken up 1787
Raisonnable 64 (1756, ex-French Rainsonnable, captured 1758); lost 1762
Bienfaisant 64 (1754, ex-French Bienfaisant, captured 1758); broken up 1814
Belliqueux 64 (1756, ex-French Belliqueux, captured 1758); broken up 1772
Modeste 64 (1759, ex-French Modeste, captured 1759); broken up 1800
Centaur 74 (1757, ex-French Centaure, captured 1759); foundered 1782 with the loss of most of her crew
Temeraire 74 (1749, ex-French Téméraire, captured 1759); sold 1784
Formidable 80 (1751, ex-French Formidable, captured 1759); broken up 1768
Courageux 74 (1753, ex-French Courageux, captured 1761)
Belleisle 64 (1760, ex-French Belleisle, captured 1761); sold 1819
Saint Ann 64 (1759, ex-French Saint Ann, captured 1761)
San Antonio 70 (1761, ex-Spanish San Antonio, captured 1762); sold 1775
Prince William 64 (ex-Spanish Guipuscoana, captured 1780)
Gibraltar 80 (1749, ex-Spanish Fenix, captured 1780) – broken up 1836
Princessa 70 (1750, ex-Spanish Princessa, captured 1780)
Monarca 70 (1756, ex-Spanish Monarca, captured 1780)
Diligent 70 (1756, ex-Spanish Diligente, captured 1780)
San Miguel 70 (1773, ex-Spanish San Miguel, captured 1780)
Prothee 64 (1772, ex-French Protée, captured 1780)
Princess Caroline (ex-Dutch, captured 1780) – Scuttled 1799
Rotterdam 50 (ex-Dutch, captured 1781) – sold 1806
Caesar 74 (ex-French César, captured 1782) – Blew up 1782
Hector 74 (1755, ex-French Hector, captured 1782)
Glorieux 74 (1756, ex-French Glorieux, captured 1782)
Pegase 74 (1781, ex-French Glorieux, captured 1782)
Caton 64 (1777, ex-French Caton, captured 1782)
Argonaut 64 (1779, ex-French Jason, captured 1782)
Solitaire 64 (1774, ex-French Solitaire, captured 1782)
French Revolutionary
Commerce de Marseille 120 (1788) – ex-French, captured 29 August 1793, prison ship by 1800, sold 1802 [22]
Pompée 74 (1791) – ex-French, captured 29 August 1793, broken up 1817 [22]
Juste 80 (1784) – ex-French, captured Glorious First of June in 1794, broken up 1811 [22]
Ca Ira 80 (1784) – ex-French, captured Glorious First of June in 1794, Burnt by accident 11 April 1896.
Sans Pareil 80 (1793) – ex-French, captured Glorious First of June in 1794, sheer hulk 1810, broken up 1842 [22]
Impétueux 74 (1788) – ex-French America, captured Glorious First of June in 1794, broken up 1813 [22]
Le Tigre' 80 (1793) – ex-French, captured 23 June 1795, broken up 1817 [22]
Belleisle 74 (1788) – ex-French Formidable, captured 23 June 1795, fought at Trafalgar, broken up 1814 [22]
L'Hercule 84 (1797) – ex-French, captured 11 October 1797, fitted as troopship 1799, powder hulk 1802, sunk as breakwater 1822.
Canopus 80 (1797) – ex-French Franklin, captured 1 August 1798, harbour service 1863, sold 1887 [22]
Tonnant 80 (1789) – ex-French captured 1 August 1798, broken up 1821
Spartiate 80 (1794) – ex-French Spartiate, sheer hulk 1842, broken up 1857
Donegal 76 (1794) – ex-French Hoche captured 12 October 1798, broken up 1845
Guerrier (1754) – ex-French Guerrière, captured 2 August 1798, broken up 1810.
Genereux (1785) 74 (1785) – ex-French, captured 18 February 1800, prison ship 1805, broken up 1816 [22]
Malta (1795) 84 (1795) – ex-French Guillaume Tell, captured 30 March 1800, harbour service 1831, broken up 1840 [22]
Athenienne (1800) 64 (1800) – ex-French Athenien ex-Maltese, captured 30 August 1798, wrecked 1806 [22]
Dutch Revolutionary
Overyssel 64 – captured 22 October 1795, hulk 1810, sold 1882 [22]
Zealand 64 – captured 19 January 1796, harbour service 1803, sold 1830[22]
Delft 64 – ex-Dutch Hercules, hospital ship by 1804, sold 1817 [22]
Dordrecht 64 – harbour service 1804, sold 1823 [22]
Prince Frederick 64 – ex-Dutch Revolutie, hospital ship by 1804, sold 1817 Vryheid 70 – prison ship 1798, powder hulk 1802, sold 1811.
Camperdown 70 – ex-Dutch Jupiter, prison ship 1798, powder hulk 1802, sold 1817.
Gelykheid 64/68 – guardship 1803, sheer hulk 1807, disposed of in 1814.
Admiral De Vries 64 – harbour service 1800, sold 1806 [22]
Haarlem 64 – harbour service 1811, sold 1816 [22]
Wassenar 64 – hulk 1804, sold 1818 [22]
Princess of Orange 70 – ex-Dutch Washington, harbour service 1806, sold 1822.
Leyden 64 – floating battery 1805, sold 1815 [22]
Texel 64 – ex-Dutch Cerberus, sold 1818 [22]
Spanish Revolutionary
San Nicolas 80 (1769) – ex-Spanish, captured Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797), prison ship 1798, sold 1814.
San Josef 110 (1783) – ex-Spanish, captured Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797), training ship by 1837, broken up 1849 [22]
San Antonio (1800) 74 (1800) – ex-French Saint Antoine originally Spanish, ceded to France 1800, captured at the Battle of Algeciras Bay in 1801, prison ship 1804, sold 1828 [22]
Dutch 4th-rate 2-deck 54-gunners
Brakel (c. 1784) – ex-Dutch, captured at the Battle of Saldanha Bay (1796), sold 1814
Tromp (c. 1779) – ex-Dutch, captured the Battle of Saldanha Bay (1796), sold 1815
Alkmaar (c. 1783) – ex-Dutch, captured at the Battle of Camperdown (1797), sold 1815
Broederschap (c. 1769) – ex-Dutch, captured the Vlieter Incident (1799), renamed Broaderscarp, broken up 1805
Batavier (c. 1779) – ex-Dutch, captured at the Vlieter Incident (1799), broken up 1823
Beschermer (c. 1784) – ex-Dutch, captured at the Vlieter Incident (1799), sold 1838
Napoleonic captures
French 80-gun ships of Le Tonnant class:[citation needed]
Brave 80 – ex-French Le Formidable, captured 1805, broken up 1816[citation needed]
Alexandre – ex-French L'Alexandre, captured 1806, sold 1822[citation needed]
French 74-gun ships of Le Téméraire class:
Duquesne 74 (1788) – ex-French Le Duquesne, captured 25 July 1803, stranded 1804, broken up 1805 [23]
Implacable 74 (1800) – ex-French Le Duguay-Trouin, captured 4 November 1805, training ship 1805, scuttled 1949 [23]
Mont Blanc 74 (1791) – ex-French Le Mont Blanc, captured 4 November 1805, hulk 1811, sold 1819 [23]
Scipion 74 (1801) – ex-French Le Scipion, captured 4 November 1805, broken up 1819 [23]
Brave 74 (1795) – ex-French Le Brave, captured 6 February 1806, foundered 1806 [23]
Maida 74 (1795) – ex-French Le Jupiter, captured 6 February 1806), sold 1814 [23]
Marengo 74 (1795) – ex-French Le Marengo, captured 1806, broken up 1816[citation needed]
Abercrombie 74 (1807) – ex-French Le d'Hautpoult, captured 7 September 1809, sold 1817 [24]
Genoa (ex-French Le Brillant, captured 1814 on stocks) – broken up 1838[citation needed]
French 74-gun ship of Le Pluton (small Temeraire = HMS Chatham sister) class:
Rivoli 74 (1810) – ex-French Le Rivoli, captured 22 February 1812, broken up 1819
Spanish 74-gun ship of San Juan Nepomuceno class:
San Juan 74 – ex-Spanish San Juan Nepomuceno, captured 21 October 1805, hulked 1805
Danish captures
HMS Holstein - renamed to Nassau in 1805; sold 1814.[25]
Christian VIII 80 (?) – harbour service 1809, broken up 1838 [23]
Dannemark 74 (?) – sold 1815 [23]
Norge 74 (?)– sold 1816 [24]
Princess Carolina 74 (?) – sold 1815 [24]
East Indiamen
Calcutta – launched in 1788 as Warley; purchased in 1795; captured by France 1805
Grampus – launched in 1787 as Ceres; purchased in 1795; grounded in 1799 on the Barking shelf near Woolwich through the ignorance of the pilot and abandoned with no loss of life
Hindostan – launched in 1789 as Hindostan; purchased in 1795; lost in a fire at sea in 1804
Abergavenny – launched as Earl of Abergavenny in 1789; purchased in 1795; sold 1807
Malabar – launched as Royal Charlotte in 1789; purchased in 1795; foundered 1796 on a passage from the West Indies with her crew being taken off by the Martha of Whitby
Glatton – launched as Glatton in 1792; purchased in 1795; scuttled 1830
Coromandel – built as Winterton; purchased and launched in 1795; sold 1813
Madras – built as Lascelles; purchased and launched in 1795; sold 1807
Weymouth – built as Earl Mansfield; purchased and launched in 1795; wrecked, with no loss of life, in 1800 on the Lisbon Bar while going into Lisbon
Malabar – launched in 1798 as Cuvera; purchased in 1804; renamed Coromandel in 1815; broken up in 1853
Hindostan – launched 1798 as Admiral Rainier; purchased in 1804; renamed Dolphin in 1819; renamed Justitia in 1831; sold 1855

4th rate:
1746 Bristol 50-gun: 2
1745 Est 50-gun: 6
1745 Est 60-gun: 6
1750 Amend '45 Est 50-gun: 1 (1757 HMS Preston)
1750 Amend '45 Est 60-gun: 4
1752 Amend '45 Est 50-gun: 1 (1758 HMS Chatham)
1752 Amend '45 Est 60-gun: 2
1760 Edgar 60-gun: 3
1767 HMS Warwick 50-gun: 1
1762 HMS Romney 50-gun: 1
-1769 Salisbury 50-gun: 2
1770 Portland 50-gun: 11
1774 Experiment 50-gun: 2
1782 Grampus 50-gun: 2
1782 HMS Trusty 50-gun: 1
1798 Diomede 50-gun: 2
-1802 HMS Antelope 50-gun: 1
1813 Leander/Newcastle 50/60-gun: 2
1815 HMS Java 52-gun: 1
1819 HMS Isis 58-gun: 1
1820 Southampton 58-gun: 6

5th-rate Frigates:
1757 Southampton 32-gun: 4
-1757 Venus 32-gun: 3 (enlarged Southampton)
-1757 Niger 32-gun: 11 (essentially repeat Southampton)
1757 Richmond 32-gun: 6
-3rd-rate 1761 Exeter 64 (upscaled Richmond)
1759 HMS Tweed 32-gun: 1 (=Lowestoffe 6th-rate with 10' midsection plug added)
1761 HMS Lowestoffe 32-gun: 1 (copy of HMS Aurora/FR L'Abenakise)
-1773 Mod Lowestoffe: 2
1773 Amazon 32-gun: 18
1779 Active 32-gun: 8
1782 Andromeda/Hermione 32-gun: 6
1783 HMS Heroine 32-gun: 1
1796 Maidstone 32-gun: 2
1796 HMS Triton 32-gun: 1
1804 Circe 32-gun: 7
1780 Flora 36-gun: 4
1780 Minerva 38-gun: 4
1781 HMS Latona 38-gun: 1
1781 Perseverance 36-gun: 4
1785 HMS Melampus 36-gun: 1 (sold to Dutch 1815)
1791 HMS Beaulieu 40-gun: 1
1793 Pallas 32-gun: 3
1794 Artois 38-gun: 9
-1799 HMS Active 38-gun: 1
1794 Alcmene 32-gun: 4
1794 razee 44-gun: 2 Intrepid-class, 1 Ardent-class
1795 Phoebe 36-gun: 5
1795 Amazon 36-gun: 4
1797 HMS Acasta 40-gun: 1
1797 HMS Boadicea 38-gun: 1 (mod copy of FR 1787 40-gun Minerve-cl)
1797 HMS Sirius 36-gun; 1 (copy of SP San Fiorenzo, capt 1794)
1797 HMS Hydra 38-gun: 1 (copy of FR Melpomene, capt 1794)
1797 Endymion 40-gun: 6
1797 HMS Cambrian 40-gun: 1 (upscale, parent uncertain)
1798 Penelope 36-gun: 3
1798 Amphion 32-gun: 5
1799 Amazon 38-gun: 2
1799 Apollo 36-gun: 27
-1819 HMS Blonde 46-gun: 1 (redesign from WL up?)
1800 Leda 38-gun: 16 (derived from FR Hebe)
-1813 Cydnus 38-gun
-1820 Mod Leda 46-gun: 23
1801 Narcissus 32-gun: 3
1801 Aigle 36-gun: 2
1802 HMS Ethalion 36-gun; 1
1804 Lively 38-gun: 16
-1836 USS Macedonian
1806 HMS Lavinia 40-gun: 1
1807 HMS Hyperion 32-gun: 1
1808 HMS Bucephalus 32-gun: 1
1810 HMS Pyramus 36-gun: 1
1804 HMS Sir Edard Hughes
1805 HMS Duncan
1805 HMS Howe
1813 Scamander 36-gun: 10
1814 HMS Forte 38-gun: 1
1819 Seringapatam 38/46-gun: 7 (based on FR Gloire-class 40-gun)

6th Rate Frigates:
1745 Est 24-gun
-1748 Mod 1745 Est 24-gun
1748 Lyme 24/28-gun, 2 (designed after FR privateer Le Tygre, taken 1747)
-1755 Lowestoffe 28-gun, 2
--1756 Coventry, 14
---1757 Fir-hull Coventry, 5
1760 Mermaid, 6 (designed as downscaled HMS Aurora/FR L'Abenakise)
1770 Enterprise, 27

6th Rate Post Ships/Corvettes:
1754 Gibraltar 20-gun: 1
-1756 Mod Gibraltar: 6
1754 Seaford 20-gun: 1
-1757 Mod Seaford: 2
1755 Squirrel 20-gun: 2
1756 Bideford 20-gun: 1
1775 Sphinx 20-gun: 10 (2 captured by France)
1777 Porcupine 24-gun: 10
1781 Myrmidon 22-gun: 1
1785 Squirrel 24-gun: 1
1806 Banterer 22-gun: 6
1806 Laurel 22-gun: 6 (1 captured by France)
1811 Hermes 20-gun: 4
1813 Cyrus 20-gun: 16
1814 Conway 20/28-gun: 10
1817 Atholl corvette: 14
1825 HMS Volage corvette
1826 HMS Tyne corvette
-1832 Conway corvette: 2 (broadened version of Tyne)
1826 Challenger

**Jack Aubrey** · 02-23-2013, 05:10

Whow, great. I thinking about some houserules (with Pirates of the..... Plastic ships) and that`s exactly what I need to classify them. :):):D
Thank you

**Volunteer** · 02-23-2013, 10:57

Wow! You have been busy. I'm sorry none of the links I had were helpful. This must have taken an enormous amount of time and effort. The historical information is all too often sketchy and well hidden, not to mention conflicting information.

So, what is your "Need to Sort Out" list about? Are these ships you have sketchy info on, or ships you just haven't gotten aroun to yet? I just picked one at random, "Temeraire 74 (1749, ex-French Téméraire, captured 1759); sold 1784", and plugged it into Three Decks. I got just about everything I could possibly want to know about this ship: Keel layed down in August, 1748; launched December 24, 1749; commissioned 1750; Toulon purpose built by François Coulomb; captured 1759/08/18; becomes British third rate ship of the line 'Temeraire' (1759); full dementions, armament, complement, and source data is there.

**Diamondback** · 02-23-2013, 13:47

Jack, I saw in your original note (I get replies by email) you asked about brigs... not yet, amigo, I'm trying to start with the relatively easy stuff and smaller population and work down.

Vol, that's ships that I'm not even sure are going to stay in the list except the two Tonnants, the Temeraires and any others that are multiples of the same class... and the stats are only part of the story, much like how the F-15 and MiG-31 Foxhound are similar-sized twin-engine twin-tail jets with huge rectangular "shoulder" intakes, but have noticeable enough engineering differences to make proxying even in tiny 1/700-scale uncomfortable. Like I said, I just copied all of my notes straight from Notepad and pasted 'em, no cleanup or anything except highlighting what's been confirmed... I may rearrange it later to number of guns then date, or number and weight then date, starting with most and heaviest.

All of this came from Wikipedia, BTW, starting with their lists of RN SOL's and frigates, then going from that to individual class, or where none existed ship, pages. I hope whoever did "List of French Ships of the Line" was similarly thorough...

**Volunteer** · 02-23-2013, 23:42

Have you found any descrepancies between Wiki and Three Decks data? I have found several over the last year and a half researching the Napoleonic Naval era.

**RedLeif** · 02-24-2013, 06:38

Vol - Yes, I have too, specifically when looking at the ships of the Spanish designer Landa. But the main discrepancy was with 'where' his 112 1st rates were built (Havana or Ferrol), so not that critical to me.

**Diamondback** · 02-24-2013, 18:29

Vol, I've noticed a few, a lot seeming to be rooted in different measurement systems... on a Temeraire, two identical ships would measure 15' of difference depending whether you use English Imperial Foot or French Pied du Roi, and sometimes Wikipedia fails to note which system is in use.

I'm treating all this as "preliminary", little more than educated guesses unless I can find engineering notes or sketches... the ideal would be if I could get drawings of each design printed to the same scale in different colors, preferably the 1/1000 game scale, so I could see at a glance and upload comparison diagrams for discussion about "Close Enough or Not?"

I've just started on the French, too... Jacques-Noel Sane seems to have paralleled Sir Thomas Slade for liking to re-use existing engineering when he deemed appropriate. But, I'm seeing an inconsistency with the Nymphe-class frigates... the "List of Frigates" page says they're from 1779 with 12-pounders, the Nymphe-class page says 1781 with 18's.

**csadn** · 02-25-2013, 16:24

Originally Posted by Diamondback

But, I'm seeing an inconsistency with the Nymphe-class frigates... the "List of Frigates" page says they're from 1779 with 12-pounders, the Nymphe-class page says 1781 with 18's.

Could be both -- originally designed with 12s, uprated to 18s. Loadouts were known to change.

**Diamondback** · 02-25-2013, 18:07

Chris, reread turned out to be two separate classes. That close together and with same name IS a little surprising, though...

**Diamondback** · 03-18-2013, 22:37

So, some questions re First Rates for those who know their ships:

1. Hunt's 1786 Royal Sovereign 100-gun displaced 2175 tons, its descendant the 1788 Umpires (Royal George/Queen Charlotte) 2286. Is it likely that the 104-gun, 2289-ton 1810 Queen Charlotte is basically just an upgun?
2. Henslow's 1795 Ville de Paris 110-gun and 1804 Hibernia differ by about 180 tons. Close enough to be near-sisters?
3. The three Surveyors 120-guns (1814 Nelso, 1815 St. Vincent and Howe) were all within 20 tons disp. Same question?
4. Rule's 120-guns range from 2613 to 2694 tons. (1808 Caledonia, 1820 Britannia, 1823 Prince Regent, 1827 Royal George, 1832 Neptune, 1833 Royal William and Waterloo) Ditto?

**David Manley** · 03-18-2013, 23:07

Originally Posted by Diamondback

So, some questions re First Rates for those who know their ships:

1. Hunt's 1786 Royal Sovereign 100-gun displaced 2175 tons, its descendant the 1788 Umpires (Royal George/Queen Charlotte) 2286. Is it likely that the 104-gun, 2289-ton 1810 Queen Charlotte is basically just an upgun?
2. Henslow's 1795 Ville de Paris 110-gun and 1804 Hibernia differ by about 180 tons. Close enough to be near-sisters?
3. The three Surveyors 120-guns (1814 Nelso, 1815 St. Vincent and Howe) were all within 20 tons disp. Same question?
4. Rule's 120-guns range from 2613 to 2694 tons. (1808 Caledonia, 1820 Britannia, 1823 Prince Regent, 1827 Royal George, 1832 Neptune, 1833 Royal William and Waterloo) Ditto?

Here's what I have.

1. Yes, essentially the same design. The original Queen Charlotte was lost by fire. the new vessel basically a 1:1 replacement with some minor changes to reflect experience in the intevening years.
2. The Hibernias were 11' longer and introduced an additional gun port each side. So it depends on how accurate you want to be. A rivet counte will want a different model for the later ships, most AoS gamers would be happy with using the same model. In game terms the same.
3. Yes. Not just near sisters, all built to the same design
4. Britannia and Prince regent definitely yes - built to the same lines as Caledonia. The later ships were sometimes called the "Broad Caledonias", beam increased by about a foot, in game and model terms essentially the same too.

Hope that helps :)

**Diamondback** · 03-19-2013, 14:36

Thanks, David. 11' would be a difference of about 3.35mm -- how "fine" of detail would you say we can expect from Ares? I've lumped the 1' longer-and-beamier Cullodens in with their parents in the Slade 74 family, so...

Followup... can Victory pass for the 1810 Boyne 98-guns, which are supposedly among her descendants? I mean, would you be comfortable reusing the Victory sculpt for them or repainting an extra Vic as one?

**RichardPF** · 03-21-2013, 04:00

Originally Posted by Diamondback

Thanks, David. 11' would be a difference of about 3.35mm -- how "fine" of detail would you say we can expect from Ares? I've lumped the 1' longer-and-beamier Cullodens in with their parents in the Slade 74 family, so...

Followup... can Victory pass for the 1810 Boyne 98-guns, which are supposedly among her descendants? I mean, would you be comfortable reusing the Victory sculpt for them or repainting an extra Vic as one?

At 1:1000 scale, 1' is 0.3 mm. I would bet that the "scale fuzziness", in terms of overall dimensions would be even a bit more than that especially for a waterline model.

**Cmmdre** · 04-20-2013, 09:55

Thank you for that little bit of information DB.

**Nightmoss** · 01-31-2016, 12:12

I've been working on kitbashing an Atalanta into a US brig and while searching for information and images I came across this thread. I'm bumping it up because it's got tons of great data.