I'm slowly making progress on fitting out an HMS Bounty provided by Eric (De Ruyter). She's getting SoG sloop sails to blend better with the rest of the fleet.
What's on Your Workbench for June 2023?
I'm slowly making progress on fitting out an HMS Bounty provided by Eric (De Ruyter). She's getting SoG sloop sails to blend better with the rest of the fleet.
A rough fitting of all of the masts. At this point, only the bowsprit is truly attached. I'll finish the hull before gluing in the rest.
Must get on with mine as well Dobbs. Like you I have got sails from my sinking sloop to blend it in.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I've got some paint on the hull. My aim was to choose colors that were distinctly un-martial. The paint scheme is based on a local merchant schooner style.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pungy
Nice one Dobbs.
For my HMS Bounty. I am going for the paint scheme used on the "Tall ships race" one.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I like it! Hmm, now I might have to do two.
Oops! Sorry Dobbs.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Suzanne puts the finishing touches of bottom paint on her boat. She says that she prefers a roller and just can't see how we make do with model brushes.
Nice one Dobbs. Both the boat and Suzanne's quip about the brushes.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Here's an interesting one. Apparently, mortar ketches went out of fashion after 1780 and were replaced with ship-rigged bombs. This is one offered by Henry which is listed as a brig, but must have actually been ship-rigged due to her class.
Last edited by Dobbs; 06-15-2023 at 18:46.
You can clearly see the ship rig from the separate main and mizzen channels, rather far aft due to the clearance for the mortars in the waist. 10" Sea Service (90lb bomb to ~3.6km) forward, 13" Sea Service (205lb bomb to ~3.8km) aft.
The model does have three voids for the fore, main and mizzen, but the mizzen is rather fine and may have printed closed.
Of course in action she would be anchored under bare poles or furled topsails, courses cleared away. In company with the bomb tender, which would prepare the supply of unfilled bomb for firing with the powder charge and fuse cut to suit the range which was selected to suit the available combinations of propellant charge (also made to order on the tender) and fuse timings to burst the shell over the target (or alternatively immediately after striking the ground and buildings (to seek a bomb bursting in a magazine)). A buoy dropped at the firing position would be used to mark the battery position so if the bomb needed to move away it could return to fire with good effect from the outset on returning to post.
That could be a very useful addition Dobbs.
Thanks for informing us.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I like and agree with all of your observations, David. I also like that the model hints that she was handled with a tiller.
In re-reading my notes, I saw that she was not of the Aetna class that fired on Fort McHenry. That apparently was the next generation. Oh well.
Now equipped with a bowsprit and loaner masts from HMS Bounty.
Coming along very nicely Dobbs.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Starting to chew on SWAS, as well as harvesting data on Baltimore Clipper privateer schooners to try to see about making USS Enterprise a viable sculpt candidate.
Preliminary thought for the Spanish is to split the four size classes of two-decker (80-94, 68-74, 58-66 and 50-and-under) by design-school (Jorge Juan. Gautier and Landa-Retamosa) and just say "ideally, we need one for each combination of design-system and size-class."
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Sounds like a good set of options to me DB.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Masts for all! A brig made from a Swan for scale.
I wonder just how many cannibalized Swan hulls we have between us Dobbs?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
A quick tally of my sloops shows that I've bought 14!
Only 3 have survived as ship-sloops. The rest have been modified. These two new additions bring my mosquito fleet up to 16 vessels using sloop parts.
I will have to look at mine again Dobbs, and see how many have passed through the shipyard apart from two sinking wrecks and a sloop on fire.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
My new Spanish heavy frigate and American 12 pdr 36 gun frigate are beginning their transformations.
Last edited by Dobbs; 06-21-2023 at 17:25.
Are you basing your American Frigate on any specific craft Dobbs, or is it just a generic vessel?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
It is to represent an Alliance class frigate from the American Revolutionary War. I know some sources say they were almost the size of Hebe class frigates, but the dimensions I've found seem closer to the Concordes. Aome sources say that Alliance had 18 pdrs, but her sisters were to have 12 pdrs. It's possible, but I think the extra weight would have negatively impacted her sailing qualities and that doesn't seem to have been the case. Of course, I'm just an armchair naval historian...Originally Posted by Bligh
That will be an interesting ship to see completed Dobbs. To cover that period I would need to reflag all my British ships.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
When you say "Alliance Class"... names? Closest thing I've found to sisters are Hancock, Massachusetts and Raleigh, all of which were around 150' and 900 tons with some design differences as far as we can best-guess them back together. IIRC a Concorde is about 130' and 700-ish tons. a Hebe around 150.
My tentative proposed "release group" to Ares for an Alliance sculpt:
US Alliance
US Hancock
US Massachusetts
US Raleigh
UK Iris
UK Raleigh
FR Iris
For a sculpt based on Confederacy:
US Confederacy
(unf) US Bourbon
US Randolph
(unf) US Washington
US priv Congress
UK Confederate
UK Duchess of Cumberland (ex-Congress)
I hate having to deal with ships that were never completed, but for the early USN, particularly the Continental Navy, they're about the only way to get the six-packs Ares would need and unless you wanna chop-and-rebuild Swans into privateers by the job-lot making the American fleet playable means needing all the help we can get. OTOH American tactics do not lend themselves to "line-of-battle" actions since IIRC our preferred tactics were to avoid stand up evenly-matched fights (*stares pointedly at Lawrence on Chesapeake*) and look for vulnerabilities to exploit while striving to slink away avoiding equal-or-disadvantage engagements.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I was under the impression that Confederacy, Bourbon, and Alliance were sisters.
I just find it hard to believe the colonies started building frigates 25% larger than standard right out of the gates. Most of the colonial frigates were still carrying 12 pdrs. They didn't need that kind of displacement.
Dobbs, you might look up John Fitzhugh Millar's "American Ships of the Colonial and Revolutionary Periods" or "Early American Ships." Both a bit dated, but... while A&C may have been *intended* as a "standard" design both had the yards take the specified dimensions and go their own way. I suspect a lot of ships may have been fitted with 12's because 18's were in short supply.
Maybe they ARE closer than the reconstructions Millar worked up suggest... but you know me, I err on the side of caution. :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
BWAS has the capture "HMS Confederate" at 154.75ft GD, 970 tuns BM, with the armament reduced to 26 x12pdr and 10 x6pdr from the US armament of 28 x12pdr and 8 x8pdr. The US Alliance is noted as being 151ft and a calculated 892 tuns BM with the same US armament.
US and French building practice was generally a little larger than that of the British who crammed a lot of firepower on a smaller hull, with a small crew extending the stowage for longer cruises, with various improvements and efficiencies in rig and ship handling to make this work - it made British ships rather more vulnerable to deficiencies in the crew.
Perhaps it's a case of tuns vs. tons? I think one is stowage volume and one is displacement, and there can be a significant difference.
The BWAS is measurements 'as taken' by the RN - and the BM is as published - my calculation is around 5 tuns less based on the Thames measure. The Alliance measurements are US measurements, there being a difference in where the landmarks are taken to be - however the tunnage is again my calculation of tunnage as if the values were compatible with RN practice - I expect there to be an error because of the difference in measurement landmark... However both are similar in scale to the Phoebe 18pdr class, being rather longer and narrower, and bracketing the 18pdr frigate's BM tunnage. Either is considerably larger than a RN 12pdr class.
As taken the Hebe (of 18s) is shorter than the Confederate, but is considerably beamier, with a ~10% greater BM tunnage.
My direct-comparison numbers on the American ships are Silverstne, just to ensure apples-to-apples. I would rely on Chapelle, Millar and Silverstone as first lines of reference for American ships, Winfield to fill in and supplement. Millar was sailing master of HMS Rose in the 1970s, responsible for aa couple of tall-ship replica projects and hand reconstructed draughts based on best-guess derived from other known contemporary ships by same designer/yard/region for his books. Per Millar, the American "nothing begets SUC-cess like EX-cess" tendency to build oversize was well known long before the Revolution.
HUGE post with lots of images ahead...
Per Silverstone working from US Navy, Smithsonian/Chapelle and National Archives sources as best he could:
Ship Length Beam Tonnage Crew Armament Notes USS Alliance 151' lbp 36' 900 US 300 28x12/12x9 This is an abnormally heavy secondary battery for ANY frigate of 26x12/28x12. Typical 26x12 would be a 32 with 4x6 QD/2x6 FC, this ship would have had the QD and FC extended so far into the waist as to be almost a full double-banked spar-decker! USS Hancock/
HMS Iris/
FNS Iris136'7" deck
115'10" keel35'6" 763 US 290 24x12/10x6 US priv/merch 1789 Massachusetts ~160' hull/
~137' deck/
~116' keel38' 820 36 unk Built by Hackett family, prop. evolved from Alliance and Raleigh. Data is Millar. Odd for a ship this size to have this much quarter/poop deck. USS/HMS Raleigh 131'5" deck
110'7" keel34'5" 697 US 180 32x12 qv 26x12/6x6
Ship Length Beam Tonnage Crew Armament Notes USS Confederacy/
HMS Confederate160' (unk, OA?)
qv 154'9" deck37' 959 US 260 28x12/8x6 unique galley-frigate (unf) USS Bourbon Only data available is 28-gun of ca. 900t, sold incomplete when too deep to cross Connecticut River bar. Confederacy and Bourbon were both built in nearby CT yards (Norwich and Chatham) so as Millar does, I'd assume they were probably similar. USS's Randolph & (unf) Washington 132'9" lbp 34'6" unk 315 26x12/10x6 US priv Congress/UK priv Duchess of Cumberland ~151' hull/
~131' deck/
~120' keel~33' 685 32 unk Data is Millar, Silverstone excludes privateers; "dims nearly identical to Randolph, drawing based on Randolph without antiquated beakhead."
Last edited by Diamondback; 06-25-2023 at 18:31.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
All this is uncovering a lot of interesting material Gentlemen.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
What I'm getting out of this conversation is that my assumptions about colonial frigate tonnage are entirely wrong, but based on the measurements, using a Concorde for Alliance is perfectly reasonable?
Great tables and pictures, DB!
Last edited by Dobbs; 06-26-2023 at 15:09.
Concorde 44.18m, Alliance 46m--if memory serves European deck measurement is including the posts while American "between perps" is inside them. Not sure how much the posts add--though I'd suggest +/- tolerance of differences should grow and shrink proportionally to ship size. Ten feet is one port--enough to make Alliance a monster relative to her "New England Group" relatives, while considerably less noticeable comparing 74 Ildefonso to 80 Neptuno and barely a blip when you cut a one-port "slice" out of 120 FNS Ocean to make 110 Commerce de Paris or splice one into 100 HMS Royal Sovereign to make 110 HMS Ville de Paris. I'd need to find a good scan of NMM J5325 (Concorde as taken) and set it up side by side with the Alliance drawing to say better.
Drawings are from a scan from Millar, to give credit where credit is due. Bear in mind, many of Millar's drawings are what we might call "forensic reconstructions"--his best guesses based on similar known works at close to the same combination of time, place, designer, builder and size/role. I really wish we could get Silverstone and Millar to get heads together with each other and Winfield to pop out an "American Warships in the Age of Sail"...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Do we have anybody here who's a graphics guru that if I got you the raw images extracted from PDF, you could massage all the drawings to a constant scale, strip 'em down to just the relevant stuff and tag each drawing with names?
More direct comparisons by size ("NE Group" left, "Phila./central Atlantic Seaboard Group" right:
If we group them this way these two are non-viable as a release candidate:
Alliance
Confederacy
unf Bourbon
HMS Confederate
And these are possibly viable, but then we need a 900-ton frigate Special Pack. (For comparison, that's around the tonnage of BHR and similar EIM's!)
Hancock
priv Congress
Raleigh
Randolph
unf Washington
HMS Iris
HMS Raleigh
UK priv Duchess of Cumberland
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
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