I have to try Simon's ships. Masts are the only part of Henry's ships I have printed! I have some of the ACW figures though. Tried to rescale for another project but they were too thin and bendy, so I ended up making my own masts in MS 3d builder. I found that large scale WWII ships still need masts!Originally Posted by Capn Duff
Great news Chris.
As I have cobbled together the Second Rates from Ares models, it will mean that I have all the masts I will need for the new ships as I replace the old ones.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Have him drop a post here when he launches his next Kickstarter if he's gonna offer it in 1:1000 too. More players in the game means we all win, because it allows each to do things the others aren't doing. :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hi Eric, yes I agree ref the masts, i am using the masts he provided and they are quite thin, as I recently found, p,us they are a good5-10mm shorter in comparison to Ares, side by side the Spanish hulls from Henry and Simon dwarf Ares but Ares masts are significantly taller, so I have ended up making a small collar to fit on the end of the mast, a piece of 2mm plastic tube which has raised the height.
Yes is now bulkier at base of mast but once painted and rigged I am hoping it will not be noticeable, I will post a couple of pics this week to illustrate.
Here's the link, by the way...
https://www.wargaming3d.com/product/...eric-mast-set/
Thanks for the Heads Up Jonas. They certainly look a better bet than the split ones. Very easy to strengthen that lower bast in several ways.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Henry just released his remade sails and masts. They are better than any other 3Dprint sails I've seen, but still has the wrong shape of the actual sails. Sails of Glory really did one thing great. That is the shape of the sails billowing.
Thanks for that Jonas, will be ordering that later today, still waiting for my packages to arrive, this afternoon some time.
Had a mail from Simon Mann today, the Spanish ship he is currently working on is the San Joaquin, so look out for that one soon
Hello to everyone, new to the board :)
Chris (Capn Duff) contacted me (Simon Mann) about future ships and it encouraged me to finish the final parts of the San Joaquin class (1771+) model to represent the 5 ships of the class.
Here's the high hull resin version. It has about 2mm (at 1:700 scale) kept just below the waterline so that it can be mounted on a rough/choppy sea base without losing the lower gundeck ports to waves.
This will print in resin between 1:700 and 1:1200 so should also be fine to print at 1:1000.
Anyway I'll try and get a test print completed shortly and then pop it up on wargaming3d.com.
Note, the San Justo as used at trafalgar has virtually identical hull lines according to my sources, with only the bow mainly below the waterline being slightly more rounded and the stern being slightly shorter/wider at the extreme with a more vertical pointing rudder.
Cheers
Simon
Mann O'War Miniatures
Last edited by T1ckL35; 07-21-2021 at 07:46. Reason: adding missed bit
Previously I'd suggested using Nepomuceno, but a bang-on San Joaquin sculpt is always better.
Welcome aboard, Simon! I'm one of our historical gurus here for ferreting out blueprints, and the later Gautier 74's have been evading me like they owe me money trying to figure out if there's *anything* we can plausibly pass that backbirthed abortion Ares gave us and called "Bahama" as. What information I have available has largely been assembled into this thread, if it helps: https://sailsofglory.org/showthread....e-Spanish-74-s The Spanish usually had more variation within a nominal class than their British and French counterparts; while Sane or Slade would crank out a batch of say five or six then rework for the next variant, like how almost all of Slade's common 74's were basically just variations on 1744 L'Invincible, Gautier and the Spanish shipwrights would tinker with design from ship to ship so you had less truly identical members within the same class.
Don't forget to take ThreeDecks numbers with a grain of salt unless you have independent confirmation; they're typo- and transcription-error-ridden, so the only things I trust without hesitation are numbers sourced from BWAS/FWAS and the unpublished SWAS manuscript.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Welcome Simon! Nice to see you here!Hello to everyone, new to the board :)
Chris (Capn Duff) contacted me (Simon Mann) about future ships and it encouraged me to finish the final parts of the San Joaquin class (1771+) model to represent the 5 ships of the class.
Here's the high hull resin version. It has about 2mm (at 1:700 scale) kept just below the waterline so that it can be mounted on a rough/choppy sea base without losing the lower gundeck ports to waves.
This will print in resin between 1:700 and 1:1200 so should also be fine to print at 1:1000.
Anyway I'll try and get a test print completed shortly and then pop it up on wargaming3d.com.
Note, the San Justo as used at trafalgar has virtually identical hull lines according to my sources, with only the bow mainly below the waterline being slightly more rounded and the stern being slightly shorter/wider at the extreme with a more vertical pointing rudder.
Cheers
Simon
Mann O'War Miniatures
It’s always good to have more ships, but I’m not sure what use I’d have of that class. Perhaps DB could enlighten us on other ships those could stand in for.
Welcome Simon, glad you decided to join us, if you need anything just say and someone may be able to assist.
I look forward to seeing the finished San Joachim when completed
It is a great pleasure to meet you on our Forum Simon.
I guess youy have read my welcome message in your PMs.
Those hulls of yours are beauties, and suddenly we are no longer losing the will to carry on, with the promise of things to come. I hope that you will enjoy ferreting amongst our files and posts, and that we can all benefit from each others expertise.
May you always sail with a fair wind at your back.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Like Chris said, anything we can do to help get more ships pushed off the ways just pop smoke. Or put up a flare, or whatever the day's equivalent was...
"Help will always be given to those who ask for it."
Yikes, did *I* just quote from the Harry Potter movies? *grabs bottle of vinegar to wash bad taste out of mouth*
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hi guys and thanks for the welcome.
Diamondback: yes indeed definitely much more variation in the Spanish sterns compared to other nations!
Having looked at the postings I can see that the next two ships on my Spanish list might be in need here, the Bahama and Rayo. I already have some plans from a while ago but any extra ones that people have or that I can cross reference with would be much appreciated.
Can't guarantee when I will crack on with them but they definitely will get done
Last edited by T1ckL35; 07-21-2021 at 14:01. Reason: Emojis didn't work
Rayo is definately high on my list. That will be bought. Bahama will probably be bought, but now I have my half finished substitute... It'll be like my old Santissima. It may be less than correct but it has sentimental value to me. It will be a while before I substitute my Indefatigable... but I have the file.Hi guys and thanks for the welcome.
Diamondback: yes indeed definitely much more variation in the Spanish sterns compared to other nations!
Having looked at the postings I can see that the next two ships on my Spanish list might be in need here, the Bahama and Rayo. I already have some plans from a while ago but any extra ones that people have or that I can cross reference with would be much appreciated.
Can't guarantee when I will crack on with them but they definitely will get done
Bahama in particular is a nightmare--the onlyt drawing Greenwich has is as a prison hulk, and she saw major changes in length and beam both when she was taken down as a 64 and rebuilt up into a 74. Ares's model has a 74's shape but a 64's size--if memory serves the 64 version should be about 49mm on LGD, the 74 version around 52 or 53.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Well, as usual I'll probably buy most of the ships in the end. It's not very expensive to buy the .stl-files and I can print as many ships as I want. From Ares sadly a single ship costs more.
This means that I will pay for a sculpt, even if it's just for a single ship. San Justo means I will get this one.
I have had no problems printing Simon's ships in 1:1000.
As you may have gathered Simon, we are a bit starved of ships for our game, unfortunately the last sets of official made ships were on the small side which is why we are slowly replacing with sculpts from yourself and Henry.
As Jonas has said, I also will purchase new ships to replace the ones that are not, shall we say the size we expected, and the sculpts being made now with the 3d printing certainly are exceptional, well to me at least. Even more since I now have my own printer.
Also, Simon, if you sign any licensing agreements with anybody over in the US, please shout--some of us are in poor position to make space for a printer and thus have to subcontract that work. :(
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hi again (and Vol) :)
So I can't remember where I got this plan from but it appears to be a nicely tidied up Bahama one from it's 74 gun layout. Quite likely a modern redrawing of the admiralty plans.
I've got a little time to play with this so have started drawing the inner lines. If I look into the 64 gun variant then it will probably be a case of comparing the San Leandro lines with other similar aged or earlier 60/64 plans and with these - mainly to get a better feel for how they compare. I've also got the dimensions as referenced on threedecks.org and 3decks.pbworks.com so it should give a better idea for the overall length of each variant (if true).
I'll also probably cross reference the lines with the San Ildefonso/Montanes to see how close they were
No licencing deals as yet though Diamondback
Cheers
Simon
My understanding is Bahama as-launched was a straight repeat-build to the same plans of the elder San Pedro Alcantara. (The second 64 by that name was a San Fulgencio, basically an Ildefonso scaled down on a ratio of 49/52.) The gallery on that drawing looks almost identical to the prison-hulk draught at Greenwich.
The Madrid archives are downright maddening in their incomplete attributions, you need a table of exact measurements of every ship they built and even then that only "narrows the field." Researching the Armada has been the bane of my existence since before this game even got out of Kickstarter...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Yes you are right, I've just been looking over my older notes again to refresh and it was the older alcantara that sank with a horde of treasure.
I'll overlay the lines from this plan with the ildefonso ones to get a better feel for the rebuild modifications. Should be interesting.
That would be an interesting comparison to see. At first I thought Bahama had been rebuilt up to Ildefonso spec since that was the "standard design" at that time, but in comparison for the drawings I found, to my eye the rake of her stern looked more like an enclosed version of San Joaquin or maybe San Fermin--not really a good fit to group with either Nepomuceno or Ildefonso. Still looking for anything on San Miguel and San Antonio to try to trace the evolution of the Spanish 74...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Funny you should mention a similarity to the San Joaquin - I created a new file for the lines from the San Joaquin one I had previously done. Dropping the Bahama plan in on the Joaquin lines shows that for the most part above the waterline, they are almost an exact match except for the extra pinching in at the stern nearer the water line and much narrower top rear, and the much sharper cutting bow shape. I'll also look to drop in the San Ildefonso and Montanes lines in to see if there are also similarities.
Thinking about it, maybe it makes more sense as on the following page it states that 'San Joaquín (originally begun as San Pedro de Alcántara) 70 (launched 14 June 1771 at Cartagena) - BU 1817'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._line_of_Spain
The actual finished San Pedro de Alcántara that sunk with the treasure was built in Cuba in 1770 so the Joaquin may well be the natural descendant.
On top of that for the Bahama - 'She was built in Havana on plans originally drawn by Ignacio Mullan for the 64-gun San Pedro de Alcantara' so we could theoretically have a circular relationship to the lines which explains a number of similarities - but also differences with the spanish tweaking the designs between builds
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis..._Bahama_(1784)
Very interesting :)
San Joaquin is also up into the mid-50's range for length, if memory serves 1770 SPdA was down in the 47-49m band more common to 64's.
As I keep saying, we REALLY need for Seaforth to get Winfield's book on the Spanish pushed down the ways--if I found myself having to bet my life on the answer to a question concerning these ships, Rif Winfield is the first person on my Phone-A-Friend list. I've learned to be wary of Wikipedia data without a cited primary source--at one time their entry on 1806 HMS Revenge cited her as being a copy of a French Temeraire.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Yes, definitely a case of not taking the information as definite. I try and cross check things but have limited access to historical resources.
I have previously been in contact with someone with a lot of reference material for the Spanish ships of the time so will try getting back in contact to see if he can root some more information out for these ships or at least be able to confirm/refute the wiki claims
Pretty much all I've had to work with for Ares is Threedecks, Winfield's books and what draughts Greenwich has scanned and posted. Shoot me a PM if there's something I can look up in BWAS or FWAS--I have the Russian volume too, but it's not up to the standard of the others.
A little fine-tuning and once it's done I could see your Bahama easily bumping the Ares two to Archival Storage... though I imagine we in general and myself in particular as their left-in-limbo historical consultant are not exactly beloved around HQ at the moment.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
So here is some progress on the Bahama. It has a much narrower bow quite like the San Juan Nepomuceno but narrower still below the waterline. The stern is much more along the lines of the San Joaquin being a bit wider higher up. The general hull below the waterline is slimmer with similarities to the Nepomuceno again but generally narrower towards the keel.
Just some observations when comparing against different vessels.
I've gone with a Spanish style stern and hull tops, being a mix of different classes rather than the British shape on the plans.
Last edited by T1ckL35; 08-01-2021 at 13:34.
Just the ticket Simon.So here is some progress on the Bahama.
I've gone with a Spanish style stern and hull tops, being a mix of different classes rather than the British shape on the plans.
We have been crying out for more of these designs rather than the somewhat limited anbd none too accurate Spanish ships ever since they were launched by Ares. Now at last we are in a position to put things right, or if not at least improve the ships.
Thanks.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Looking good, it is great to see these ships taking shape, I am just starting on a Montannes class so please keep em coming
That is nice! From her hull shape I would think that her bow would have a little less buoyancy and go deeper in high winds when running before the winds. Do we know about her sailing performance?
I just realized that perhaps no other game has ever had the possibility to emulate those kind of things as well and as easily as Sails of Glory, but I'm sure it hasn't. Movement decks could vary the length of the arrows depending on strength of wind, point of sail and so on if they were specific for individual ships.
I would expect that sea handling paired with battle damage were why Bahama was hulked immediately upon making port, never to sail again. Many of our British reflags in Sails are similar What-Ifs, we needed names for ships that actually *existed* under Red, White or Blue Ensign and didn't have quite as much service data ten years ago as we do now.
They CAN be fun for what-if scenarios, trying to retake them from the prize crews...
Last edited by Diamondback; 08-01-2021 at 17:25.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
This is yet another chance for a few solo scenarios for me to work up. Thanks DB.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Dobbs has done a lot of work for us on sailing wind effects with his superb ship base cards, and I wonder if something could be devised on the sailing performance in a similar way? The beauty of that is only one card would need tinkering with rather than a whole deck.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
The hollow bow would encourage her to "hog". This is when the weight above the waterline in the ends weighs more than the water being displaced directly beneath. The middle of the boat rises as the ends sag. It rather negatively affects sailing qualities.
So in essence you want a "Jay Leno Chin" to avoid hogging. I know many of the Dreadnought-era BB's like USS Arizona were built with what were intended as bow rams, but ended up streamlining the bows to cut water better. Ideally, we could develop an algorithm to modify base logs for each ship design based on details like that, if we could gather the data... I know Victory had so many manufacturing defects she almost couldn't be launched and had so horrid a starboard list she needed an absurd amount of ballasting, which sounds to me like she should have had a noticeable steering differential too, going more easily to one side than the other. (And yet somehow she was the BEST handling of the First Rates, said to be almost the same as her Bellona-class "little sisters"...)
Last edited by Diamondback; 08-01-2021 at 19:32.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
The performance discussion reminded me of this rather extensive document:
http://oa.upm.es/1520/1/PONEN_FRANCI...ONZALEZ_01.pdf
A brief reference on page 41 comparing some of the Spanish ships:
José de Mazarredo reported on the San Ildefonso, after the sea trials run with the San Juan Nepomuceno in the summer of 1785 (JMJG,2-211):
“The poop is too simple. Ledges 8in wide and 5in with planking 2in thick were warped by sun heating, which opened the seams and rotted the deck structures. When pitching in medium wind the mizzen topsail sheets pulled the poop deck upwards dismantling the supports of the wheel like I had never seen in any other ship before”.
The design of the Monarca (R.Landa, Ferrol, 1794) was followed by the Montañés (Ferrol, 1794) a design of Julián Martín de Retamosa who narrowed the lines of Romero de Landa. With 180 tons less displacement the Montañés had 5in more draft forward and 3in more draft aft than the San Ildefonso. An immediate result of this was to reduce the hogging of the hull as underwater volume was shifted from midships to the ends and therefore it was more evenly distributed along the keel.
The Spanish Navy was eagerly pursuing the best design of their 74s. Thorough sea trials were conducted to compare the Monarca and the Montañés in order to select the best solution. Although the Montañés sailed better than the Monarca except with following or head winds, the results of the trials were not conclusive and the Junta held in Cádiz on 12 Dec.1794 on board the Conde de Regla decided that “it is not convenient to select one construction system so that the progression leading to the perfection of the Naval Architecture is not obstructed” (MNM,Ms.2322).
This is definitely one of the things that the SoG mechanics excels at. I could certainly make some recommendations.
While hogging in the long term was often the death of a ship as it aged, the appeal was a finer entry and possibly exit was thought to make a ship faster. The 19th century saw the introduction of diagonal bracing, which made hills more rigid and allowed the buoyancy of the middle to be transferred to the ends. Constitution and her sisters are an early example of this technology, though there's some debate as to if President had the diagonals.
Not far off now. Still have the stern to finish for both fdm and resin printable versions, the hull to cut and to add mast holes etc.. but after that it should be good
Looks great!
Look forward to adding this to my fleet
Not able to test print the Bahamas just yet so onto the next, the Rayo in both 80 and 100 gun versions.
The plans for the 100 gun variant were quite distorted and it wasn't clear if the plans for the 80 gun were actually the same or differed much but after some work they should be good to use. The main differences here are the additional hull height and rebuilt bow. The stern doesn't appear to be much different.
I've already added extra lines for the thicker planking and just need some deck layouts which may have to be a variation of the captured fenix British rebuild combined with knowledge from the other Spanish ships I've already completed.
I am anxiously awaiting navios Bahama and both Rayo versions Simon!Not able to test print the Bahamas just yet so onto the next, the Rayo in both 80 and 100 gun versions.
The plans for the 100 gun variant were quite distorted and it wasn't clear if the plans for the 80 gun were actually the same or differed much but after some work they should be good to use. The main differences here are the additional hull height and rebuilt bow. The stern doesn't appear to be much different.
I've already added extra lines for the thicker planking and just need some deck layouts which may have to be a variation of the captured fenix British rebuild combined with knowledge from the other Spanish ships I've already completed.
Oooooooooh so looking forward to this one
Things are really moving on a pace now gentlemen!
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
This is great news! I will have almost all Spanish ships I could ever want after this.
I wouldn't mind San Fernando 96/98 gun rebuild, but that is a special bird...
I must say that I'm very picky when it comes to sails but the "Sails for all Black Seas models" have pleased me enough. I have designed my own bowsprit and scaled and even cut some into them, but I like the finished product. I'm printing my second try of the bowsprit. The first were out of scale. After this one is printed I will correct angles of the fore staysails... Then I can mass produce...
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