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Thread: American Frigates

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    I was looking here and on the 1812 thread but could not find any lake ships. Niagara/Lawrence would of course be iconic. Do they not make the size cut, I thought they were larger than the Cruzier class brigs? There are larger ships from the lakes that might work in the US scheme like Saratoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_(1814) or General Pike
    The problem is, Lakers generally had no path to open ocean so pretty much their only viable opponents are each other. It's not an opposition or hostility to them--hell, I'd propose to give them an entire parallel line with its own Starter box akin to the coming pirate spinoff--just that the open-ocean fights are higher priority and offer more game possibilities. There *were* several Lakers based on the Cruizer design and brig-rig versions of the Peacock-group hull, so those sculpts could be leveraged too. That and the nightmare of one-offs that Eckford and company cranked out at Presque Isle...

    We're not just up against a size floor, but a population floor too. I've made an informal proposal suggesting that Ares partner with Henry Turner on Wargaming3d where they develop stat packages and he the models for ships too small or "too close to existing sculpt" to ever join the official catalog.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 12-08-2020 at 16:30.
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  2. #52
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    Some more drawings... 1st Barbary War era ships, mostly brigs--drawings are the plates at the end.
    http://www.ibiblio.org/anrs/docs/E/E...r_shipdata.pdf

    Interestingly, a discussion here suggests that Essex may be a relative of Alliance/Confederacy, she was built by the same family of shipwrights as Alliance but 20 years later. Also curious that Humphreys looked directly to Santissima Trinidad as inspiration for USS Pennsylvania.
    https://modelshipworld.com/topic/106...comment=322610
    Last edited by Diamondback; 01-03-2021 at 17:52.
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  3. #53
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    Also, I think I found out why Boston looks anachronistic... the guys over at Modelshipworld seem to think that high-poop drawing is the 1748 HMS Boston, not the Continental ship.

    "And... uh, here I am sitting here by myself talking to myself. That's, uh, that's Chaos Theory for you."
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  4. #54
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    No response since the 9th of December must be giving that idea DB. Just remember that talking to yourself is one way of getting intelligent conversation. I know how you feel nobody has played one of my scenarios in the solo campaign since mid way through last year.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Hey Rob, would you mind taking a look at the plates in the PDF linked above and comment about if there are any ships you'd be comfortable passing off as each other? We're probably only gonna get at best ONE sculpt for anything smaller than the Hornet-Peacock-Ontario Group, so we need as big of a tolerable cluster for large schooners and small brigs as we can get, even with me planning to cheat and use the enlarged rebuild of Enterprise as "base hull" to get us above the 28m floor.
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    I read it. I just don't have that much to comment on these american vessels. Not my specialty...

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    If all those are to the same scale I would be happy to accept any of them as each other for the non purists amongst us.
    Seems tat they come in twogroups really. Argus, Constallation Essex and new York look pretty much alike save the rails and that is easy to alter if you care that much. Vixen and Wasp certainly have a different hull profile, but the difference seems to be mainly below the waterline so would probably not matter too much to us. If we can get any ships built I would frankly settle for a generic one chosen from any of the above.
    Why not stick this in the Admiralty and ask for opinions there, or even PM the Stats Committee for a crit if they are not reading this post. So far at some time, apart from we two, the following have either visited or answered this thread:-




    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I read it. I just don't have that much to comment on these american vessels. Not my specialty...
    Just a general gut feeling about the overall look of the ships would be of value Jonas. Probably even more use than an expert in that particular area, as it will be the overall impression of the ship that will be noticed by most punters and not the minutiae. If you can just put aside your expertise in the ships you do know and look at these dispationately it may help us to clarify just what is acceptable and what is not.
    I am quite new to the American scene myself and am basing my remarks on the only two books I have on American ships, one of which is on Frigates, and these blueprints.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Just a general gut feeling about the overall look of the ships would be of value Jonas. Probably even more use than an expert in that particular area, as it will be the overall impression of the ship that will be noticed by most punters and not the minutiae. If you can just put aside your expertise in the ships you do know and look at these dispationately it may help us to clarify just what is acceptable and what is not.
    Precisely, I tend to get hung up in the minutiae and "rivet counting," and have trouble abstracting large drawings down to only the "granular" detail that would be seen once reduced to a finger-length model. The classic "I can't see the forest for the trees" problem...
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    Question... we know USS United States should be less maneuverable than an L Deck... should we be looking at a J, N or O?
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    What caused her lack of maneuverability in comparison to her sister ships DB. Should we look at her speed or rather her ability to change course?

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  12. #62
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    I favor more the inability to change course due to her extra windage of the roundhouse. My notes say D deck is the same speed, but without the 2 extra cards. Another option is to make her sailing angles slightly worse, but keep the L deck.

    Of course, what I did was increase the deck of the 1803 Constitution to N to reflect the improvements in the sailplan.

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    My main problem is where to get another Constitution to convert at a price that won't break the bank.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I'm tempted to ask our friend Henry if he could whip up an STL for United States's roundhouse...
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    Foir the Med I guess I should ber aiming for the President rather than the United States DB.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    President would probably be the least work, simple repaint and restat for a weaker hull. Or was her hogging and structural weakness caused by abuse and improper maintenance?
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  17. #67
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    Abuse!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    In the sense of "excessive overloading"--most ships at design IIRC had some margin for safe addition of extra crew/guns, but President appears to have been either poorly built or pushed too far for how she was built or both. We may never know the root causes...
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    All I could find was a comment that she was heavier than her sister ships.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Side note: According to Winfield, the American supersize 74's were unable to open their LD ports in heavy seas. Sounds like a mechanic where they get buffed up to a First Rate gun level, but if the winds go to High their broadsides are cut in half?
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  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Side note: According to Winfield, the American supersize 74's were unable to open their LD ports in heavy seas. Sounds like a mechanic where they get buffed up to a First Rate gun level, but if the winds go to High their broadsides are cut in half?
    American super size 74s? Were any such ships built? WTF is Winfield on about?

    I mean the most famous example of a 74 unable to open the main deck ports was the battle involving the Droits de la Homme and the Indefatigable. So a normal French 74.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    American super size 74s? Were any such ships built? WTF is Winfield on about?

    I mean the most famous example of a 74 unable to open the main deck ports was the battle involving the Droits de la Homme and the Indefatigable. So a normal French 74.
    These would be Independence/Washington and their successors, "super size" being my term--nominally classed as 74's, but in fact no more so than a Humphreys/Doughty Superfrigate was a "mere" 44.

    Also, SCS South Carolina appears to be an evolution of Pestel's Pourvoyeuse class, no relation to the Humphreys ships other than the general concept of "big heavily-armed frigate."
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  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    These would be Independence/Washington and their successors, "super size" being my term--nominally classed as 74's, but in fact no more so than a Humphreys/Doughty Superfrigate was a "mere" 44.

    Also, SCS South Carolina appears to be an evolution of Pestel's Pourvoyeuse class, no relation to the Humphreys ships other than the general concept of "big heavily-armed frigate."
    So peace time establishment then. My mind just stops at 1815.

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    Ares presently hard-stops at the end of War of 1812 (much like how for me as a New York Central Railroad modeler and historian, the world ended at the stroke of midnight January 31, 1968 with that backbirth abortion of a trainwreck we call the Penn Central merger), but I'm trying to get them to extend it into 1816 and Second Barbary to help extend the "potential releases" pool for some ships we otherwise can't make. *stares pointedly at virtually entire War of 1812 USN*
    Last edited by Diamondback; 04-10-2021 at 23:38.
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    LD gunports becoming flooding ports and hence being closed in high wind/sea conditions was a pretty common occurrence during the age of sail.

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    As I understood it, this was the one drawback of having the wind gauge in high seas as not only did your ports point down and limit your range but also stood a chance of flooding, as Dave says.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    LD gunports becoming flooding ports and hence being closed in high wind/sea conditions was a pretty common occurrence during the age of sail.
    True, but IIRC Winfield made it sound like the early USN SOL's were even worse than normal. Then again, why bother, it looks like it'll be a cold day in Hell before we see anything beyond straight reissues anyway... and anything really "edge of the envelope" well into Fuggeddaboutit.
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  28. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    LD gunports becoming flooding ports and hence being closed in high wind/sea conditions was a pretty common occurrence during the age of sail.
    I am aware of that. One of the advantages to the larger spar decked frigates was having higher clearance for main deck gun ports from the waterline. Certainly the LD gun port height from the waterline was a design consideration.

    Maybe I am not clear as to what Winfield means by "supersized 74s" to use Diamondback's term. I may have assumed wrongly that he meant the Humphries frigates, especially in this thread titled "American Frigates"

  29. #79
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    I believe that I read that Independence was a disappointment as a 74 due to her lower gundeck clearance and was razeed pretty quickly into a heavy/super frigate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    I am aware of that. One of the advantages to the larger spar decked frigates was having higher clearance for main deck gun ports from the waterline. Certainly the LD gun port height from the waterline was a design consideration.

    Maybe I am not clear as to what Winfield means by "supersized 74s" to use Diamondback's term. I may have assumed wrongly that he meant the Humphries frigates, especially in this thread titled "American Frigates"
    Eric, somewhere along the line while this thread was originally targeted on frigates and making production-viable clusters out of the historical USN the rest of the fleet crept in along the way. :) If you look at Independence and Washington, the first two commissioned USN 74's, they're actually closer in size and tonnage (58x16.5m, ~2250t) to a British First Rate or a Tonnant 80 than any true 74. (Bigger even than Victory; for comparison Temeraires are about 1900-2000 tons and typical British Common 74's around 1500-1750 tons.)

    IIRC lndependence wasn't razeed until the 1830s, but her second act as a 54-gun "super superfrigate" was more successful than her first. For the What-Iffers, could this be a viable repurpose for the oversized Constitution?
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  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Eric, somewhere along the line while this thread was originally targeted on frigates and making production-viable clusters out of the historical USN the rest of the fleet crept in along the way. :) If you look at Independence and Washington, the first two commissioned USN 74's, they're actually closer in size and tonnage (58x16.5m, ~2250t) to a British First Rate or a Tonnant 80 than any true 74. (Bigger even than Victory; for comparison Temeraires are about 1900-2000 tons and typical British Common 74's around 1500-1750 tons.)

    IIRC lndependence wasn't razeed until the 1830s, but her second act as a 54-gun "super superfrigate" was more successful than her first. For the What-Iffers, could this be a viable repurpose for the oversized Constitution?
    While this thread has veered off its original intent I have been enjoying the discussion, which definitely relates to a thread I started back in January of last year. Of special interest would be your idea of repurposing the oversized Constitution.

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