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Thread: Sideslip Cards

  1. #1
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    Default Sideslip Cards

    I have never been fond of the sideslip cards, but the other day I had an idea which made them more palatable to me. What if they were dependent on which tack you were on? If you were on a port tack and played a starboard sideslip the movement arcs would be reversed and vice a versa for a starboard tack.

    This would have the effect of speeding up a ship going to windward but not allowing it to point as high, and slowing down a ship turning farther downwind, just like the dead downwind arc on the back of the base.

    The effect of both of these maneuvers are often seen in sailboat handling these days.

    Port tack with a turn to port and vice a versa would be played as written on the card.

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    Sounds like an idea to me Dobbs. Would the slippage be as noticeable on a large warship as a smaller class of vessel in your opinion?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    It's not so much slippage as bearing off to gain speed. Sailing in the yellow arc, or upwind, works the boat hard, and turning away slightly gives a speed boost.

    In the green arc, a boat sails its fastest while reaching. Turning away from the wind tends to slow it down.

    It's not really an aspect of boat size, its really just how the sails use the energy available.

    By switching the colors on the on the sideslip card for the appropriate tack, the card decks achieve this effect.

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    Right Dobbs, got it now. You are a great source of actual seamanship vs just my card shuffling, I will have to give that a go.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Nice idea.

    I haven't either really understood what it was supposed to represent.

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    By making the two different sideslips asymmetrical based on the ship's tack makes the cards far more relevant and increases their value tactically.

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    For those not in the know... In the usage in this conversation, tack refers to the side of the ship on which the wind is blowing.

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    I can't wait to give this a try. I've always thought that SoG is the best representation of sailing without having to understand the complexities. This just adds another layer to the simulation.

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    Hi Dobbs.

    I've been a way from this site for a couple years and just now logged in. Your idea is intriguing but, although I "kinda" follow what you're suggesting, I'm not sure I've totally wrapped my brain around it. Could you please illustrate it for me (us)?

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    I think an illustration would be to all our benefits. i am trying to work out if a new card printed in reverse would make it easier to carry out the motion or if we could do it with existing cards.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I think an illustration would be to all our benefits. i am trying to work out if a new card printed in reverse would make it easier to carry out the motion or if we could do it with existing cards.
    Rob.
    Thanks for "chiming in" Rob. Glad I'm not the only one trying to get a true handle on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MWBell View Post
    Hi Dobbs.

    I've been a way from this site for a couple years and just now logged in. Your idea is intriguing but, although I "kinda" follow what you're suggesting, I'm not sure I've totally wrapped my brain around it. Could you please illustrate it for me (us)?
    You got it, Michael. I'll try and put a sketch up later today.

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    Note the direction of the wind. Moves 1-3 are in the yellow arc. 4-6 are in the green arc.

    1 and 4 are just straight and there for reference

    2 and 5 are played as marked.

    In the case of 2, the ship is turning toward the wind (possibly into the red arc) and it works well to play it as marked.

    With 5, the ship is turning toward the wind briefly, but from the green arc. Having the wind on your beam is a powerful point of sail, so it works as marked.

    With 3, things change. Turning away from the wind when trying to go upwind makes a boat accelerate. It goes faster, but it doesn't go as far upwind. This is why I suggest using the green movement here.

    6 is similar, but different. A ship cannot sail faster than the wind directly downwind. In fact, it is faster sailing on an angle to the wind. This is not just because the sails are blocking each other directly downwind, it's vector physics and probably not good to go into here (PM me if you want more). Anyway, turning away from the wind in the green arc would make a boat go slower, hence using the yellow arc for this move.

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    In play, if using a sideslip card that has you turning away from the wind, for movement, you just reverse the color of the arc that you are actually in. To keep other players from thinking that you are cheating, announce that you are "bearing off".

    If sailing dead downwind in the yellow arc directly behind the ship, you would use the yellow movement arrow. That does not change.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 12-21-2019 at 07:16.

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    That makes things totally clear now Dobbs. Seeing the cards makes all the difference.
    Thanks for taking the time to explain this.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    In the name of furthering nautical knowledge, USS Brandywine and HMS Terpsichore engaged in a tacking competition. When not turning through the wind, Brandywine would only sail straight. Terpsichore would only do sideslips as described here.

    The result:

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    The first tack:

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    The next leg:

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    The second tack and final leg of the demonstration:

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    As you can see, Terpsichore was sailing faster, but not sailing as close to the wind. Brandywine was slowly beating her to windward.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 12-22-2019 at 15:57.

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    And now a demonstration of the sideslip using the conventional method:

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    The last card is a regular turn to port to bring Terpsichore on a parallel course to Brandywine. It probably should have been played as a green arc, but I got caught up in the moment. Ultimately, to maintain a parallel course in the green arc, I would have played a more gradual turn and the ship would have moved a touch farther. The result would have been similar.

    My point being that in the second demonstration the maneuver could have been achieved with two opposite turns and the use of the sideslip card extraneous. The first demonstration gives the sideslip card a tactical use.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 12-22-2019 at 16:40.

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    A very impressive and convincing demonstration Dobbs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    So, basically, reverse green and yellow arc allowances for maneuvers 3 & 6. I get it ... I LIKE it and it makes sense. Thanks, I'll try it out (if I can remember it)!

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    [QUOTE=My point being that in the second demonstration the maneuver could have been achieved with two opposite turns and the use of the sideslip card extraneous. The first demonstration gives the sideslip card a tactical use.[/QUOTE]

    Not necessarily extraneous ... the two-turn opposite process not only slows the process down but can also cause potential exposure for rake. The sideslip tactic would definitely be preferred.

    Let me just say that if a picture is worth a thousand words, you've provided us with a full training manual!!!

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    Having made the suggestion that we use this rule at our game last weekend, it quickly became apparent that a card modification was needed.

    Here are my two ideas. Feedback is appreciated.

    Sideslip A Cards.pdf

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    The side-slip cards make things much more simple Dobbs. Do we envisage doing them for each type of deck with corresponding lengths of travel for the speed of each deck. Also for the simple minded such as I what is the relevance of the colour schemes on the arrows please. I have not had much time to dwell on the idea since you mooted it as real life plus a rather unpleasant chest infection has got in the way for the last week or so. After a course of steroids I'm feeling more chipper today, but still a bit woolly in the head. Right! Which fellow said " no difference there then." Step forward that man!

    Seriously a really good addition to our repertoire. Thank you for doing these Dobbs. I will certainly take them on board.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Yes, Rob, there will be a set for each deck. I just started with the A deck, as those are my ships that I test everything with.

    The light blue arrow is a reminder that if the wind is blowing on that side of the vessel (the ship is on that tack), that the color on that side of the movement line is used. If the ship is on the other tack, the color on that side is used (the card is used in its original version).

    I included two different styles of cards to see which one was favored by the folks here.

    May you mend quickly of your chest infection! That's got to be great with the cold air of Winter!

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    Thanks for the speedy answer Dobbs and the good wishes. I am having a quiet afternoon watching the Snooker Masters final.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Thank you for all your work on this topic, Dobbs.

    I hope that you will continue to recover from your chest infection, Robb.

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    Cheers Dave.
    Thanks for the good wishes.
    I am feeling a lot more chipper this morning.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Sideslip A and C Cards.pdf

    Sideslip B and D Cards.pdf

    Sideslip E and G Cards.pdf

    Here are my modified sideslip cards for A, B, C, D, E, and G decks. If anyone gives them a try, let me know what you think. For me they're easy to use because I use card sleeves. I cut them out and put them over the originals. Without sleeves, it may be necessary to get creative.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 02-11-2020 at 19:51.

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    Thanks Dobbs.
    I too use sleeves so will follow your lead.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I like this idea, especially looking at your ship movement experiment. I have a question though about the movement numbered 6 in your illustration posted earlier. I understand why a ship slows down when running with the wind. However, what if a ship continues to reach throughout the manoeuvre (i.e. it stays in the green zone)? Is a slowing down justified in this case? Another thing I was wondering was that even if the ship does run with the wind during part of its movement, doesn't it nevertheless have enough momentum from reaching? This is not dissimilar to the reason you give for using the green arrow for movement number 3 in your illustration. I guess another way to pose this question is "Does a ship have the momentum to go from reaching to running to reaching again within a Sails of Glory turn?"

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    Very good questions, Andrew. The answers are based on vector math. The ship is getting its power from the wind. In picture 6 in the green arc, if it turns away from the wind it subtracts its speed from the wind speed, so in effect there's less wind pushing it. It's not that it's going from reaching to running and back. By turning farther downwind it has access to less horsepower. It's just sailing less efficiently.

    The yellow arc reflects how inefficient a square rigger is going to windward. In picture 3, in the yellow arc, the boat bears off, becoming more efficient at going forward, but not efficient at sailing as close to the wind.

    Mainly, I didn't like the cards as offered, and was trying to justify them in sailing terms. In trying this variation, I felt the results mimicked what I have experienced in real life (though I am limited by sailing a modern fore and aft rig).

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    To a complete landlubber like myself these are very interesting observations Jonas.
    We so often forget that our lives in this technological age is so far removed from that of our ancestors of even a few years ago let alone 200.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Something happened when I looked at my post after I got your answer Rob.
    Earlier I followed a link to some older post on this forum which set something bad in the cookie. I had to delete it to get the look of the forum back.

    My post was something like this:

    When comparing modern sailing with the old square rigged sailing I've done I find that some true principles isn't as important even though true.
    Modern sailboats may sail faster than the wind while reaching. That's not so with the old ships we're talking here. When sailing La Grace I found that the effect of loosing speed of the wind when running had a marginal effect on her as 15 knots wind running gave 5 knots speed and 18 knots on a broad reach still gave us 5 knots. There was a difference though with Tre Kroner of Stockholm. She's a much better sailer and I think her hullshape makes a huge difference. I would also say her leeway was much less eventhough I have no number to confirm that. La Grace is built after plans from about 1775 and Tre Kroner is a steel hulled replica of a brig from 1845. I will admit that she's bigger with 115 feet to La Grace 78 feet and 735 sqm sail plan to La Grace's 364 sqm.

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    Thanks for re-posting Jonas it now makes sense of my post again.
    I have got rid of your deleted message for you.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I have been very satisfied with how the modified sideslip cards are playing.

    Here are the F and H sideslip cards:

    Sideslip F and H Cards.pdf

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    Thanks Dobbs.
    This is a wonderful thing that you are producing for us.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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