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Thread: Demologos Project

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    Default Demologos Project

    The Demologos was an American experiment in steam built toward the end of the War of 1812, and living a few miles from Robert Fulton's birthplace, I've always been fascinated by it. She wasn't finished by the war's end, but it sure would have been interesting if she was...

    As an interesting aside, the company that built her hull was the same company responsible for the 74 that was being built for use on the Great Lakes.

    This is the beginning of my attempt to scratch-build a 1/1000 model.

    First, I found a set of plans from the Smithsonian. I used them to make templates on cardstock. One template gives me the general hull shape, and the other gives me the gunport positions. The hull is made of stacked styrene. The bottom hull layer is 2mm. The gunport layer is 1mm, as is the the deck above. I anticipate another 1 mm layer above that to represent the ring of wet cotton bails that were to be used as an alternative to the hammocks used on conventional warships. I intend to make the ring smaller than the outer hull diameter, so that template does not exist yet.

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    Two different examples of what I'm aiming for (only on a much smaller scale).

    The article I used for my basic research:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31179...-h/31179-h.htm

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    That is certainly a departure from the normal ships we see here Dobbs.
    I am looking forward to seeing the end result.
    Could be a game changer in all respects when it gets into action. On a calm day its effect would be devastating.
    What armament did she carry?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Very interesting, I look firward to seeing this complete

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    I've been looking at the representation of steam propulsion in SOG for a while, mainly with the Opium Wars and the Crimean War in mind. Standard manoeuvre decks would work fine, ignore wind direction and effects and select "low", "medium" or "high" throttle settings equating to sail settings to reflect varying engine power settings )or just use the current approach to altering sail settings as is and simply apply to the engines). Ships with lower power engines could be restricted in the throttle setting they could use.

    "Broken mast" damage could then be applied to engine power, each level reducing the ships maximum power level by one.

    Thats as far as I've got so far, thoughts and comments welcomed :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    That is certainly a departure from the normal ships we see here Dobbs.
    I am looking forward to seeing the end result.
    Could be a game changer in all respects when it gets into action. On a calm day its effect would be devastating.
    What armament did she carry?
    Rob.
    Steaming out in calms was exactly what Fulton had in mind. In tests, she managed 5 knots. Her armament as fitted was 30 - 32 pounder long guns. 12 in a broadside, 3 on each end. She was to be equipped with two 100 pounder "submarine" columbiads of Fulton's dsign, but they were never installed, and I can't find any references to them other than the name. They don't seem to have anything in common with the later columbiads of ACW fame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    I've been looking at the representation of steam propulsion in SOG for a while, mainly with the Opium Wars and the Crimean War in mind. Standard manoeuvre decks would work fine, ignore wind direction and effects and select "low", "medium" or "high" throttle settings equating to sail settings to reflect varying engine power settings )or just use the current approach to altering sail settings as is and simply apply to the engines). Ships with lower power engines could be restricted in the throttle setting they could use.

    "Broken mast" damage could then be applied to engine power, each level reducing the ships maximum power level by one.

    Thats as far as I've got so far, thoughts and comments welcomed :)
    I have been thinking along these same lines, David. I'm just trying to decide which deck would be most appropriate. I'm thinking I might go with a faster deck, but with some of the tighter turns removed. I can't imagine that Demologos was particularly good at cornering. I like how Fulton anticipated her maneuverability issues and designed her to operate in both directions, like a ferryboat.

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    I wouldn't go with anything fast. 5.5 knots was her maximum speed, which isn't that great considering some of the frigates in the game were making 14+ in a good breeze

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    I wouldn't go with anything fast. 5.5 knots was her maximum speed, which isn't that great considering some of the frigates in the game were making 14+ in a good breeze
    It is true that frigates could go that fast, but that was typically when they were going somewhere.

    It is my thought that within the context of the game we have ships that are working under a sailplan designed more for agility and ease of handling rather than for speed. Therefore, I think 5.5 knots might be considered "fast" in the game.

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    The "Full Sail" setting in the game represents ships "getting there fast". Personally I'd look for something pretty slow and manoeuvrable, that would probably be a fair representation. The ability to ignore wind direction is advantage enough for what was a pretty unhandy "brick"

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    Very intriguing build for the game. Will be watching with much interest. If Ares doesn't eventually do steam they could certainly go farther back and give us some ancients?
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    The "Full Sail" setting in the game represents ships "getting there fast". Personally I'd look for something pretty slow and manoeuvrable, that would probably be a fair representation. The ability to ignore wind direction is advantage enough for what was a pretty unhandy "brick"
    If you are assuming that Full Sails is "getting there fast", and that some frigates can do 14 knots, then you are suggesting that the middle wind speed for the game is 15-20 knots or more, considering that the hulls were not efficient by today's standards. There's no way that ships of this time period could exceed the wind speed, especially down wind.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 06-03-2018 at 19:41.

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    At five Knots, maybe we should restrict her to fighting sails as top speed re Dave's suggestion.
    All else seems to fit very well Dave.
    What was she like structurally?
    With engines fitted I would have expected a pretty robust Keel and ribs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Suggestion:
    Every other sail hit lowers top speed. Every mast hit steams one crew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    If you are assuming that Full Sails is "getting there fast", and that some frigates can do 14 knots, then you are suggesting that the middle wind speed for the game is 15-20 knots or more, considering that the hulls were not efficient by today's standards. There's no way that ships of this time period could exceed the wind speed, especially down wind.
    My point here was that a fast frigate was only fast if it had the wind to drive it. If it could go 14 knots, that probably only happened when it was blowing 25+ knots, and the captain was pushing the ship. It would not be going 14 knots in a combat situation involving close maneuvering.

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    Being able to sail directly into the wind is surely a big advantage. Rules would be needed for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    My point here was that a fast frigate was only fast if it had the wind to drive it. If it could go 14 knots, that probably only happened when it was blowing 25+ knots, and the captain was pushing the ship. It would not be going 14 knots in a combat situation involving close maneuvering.
    True, but even in light airs a frigate, even a SOL and many merchants under full sail are going to be outstripping 5-6 knots, making Demologos "fast" isn't going to be realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Being able to sail directly into the wind is surely a big advantage. Rules would be needed for that.
    Thats the easy bit - treat the whole perimeter of the ship card as green, so she always moves the full length of the arc on her manoeuvre card corresponding to her speed setting.

    I would also make changing speed a "free" action since it doesn't require large numbers of crew to accomplish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    At five Knots, maybe we should restrict her to fighting sails as top speed re Dave's suggestion.
    All else seems to fit very well Dave.
    What was she like structurally?
    With engines fitted I would have expected a pretty robust Keel and ribs.
    Rob.
    Comparable to frigate construction, which was pretty robust anyway. But she had additional material in the form of wooden "armour" which increased the side thickness to around 4-5 feet, so easily worthy of a Burden worthy of a first rate

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    Dobbs, when I was sailing La Grace we did 5 knots with the wind on the beam (90 degrees) and a relative wind speed of 15 knots with only three sails set. (All on the foremast and not well trimmed either.) I´d say we were in the "backing sails" category. La Grace is a typical 18th century brig. According to her captain she's always last in the tall ships races until the handicap is applied. She's also one of the oldest (in what is replicated and how closely).

    Tre Kronor (1840s, steel hulled) when running felt like there was no wind at all. She wasn't much slower than the wind. I can't remember numbers but there was an easily noticable difference. I guess the best sailers of the napoleonic wars would still be worse than Tre Kronor. Her captain told me he'd had her go more than 17 knots momentarily.


    On the other hand if we're looking at Trafalgar...

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    My progress for the weekend:

    Name:  Demologos 2.jpg
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    Gunports, masts and yards. The layers have yet to be glued and finish sanded, as the shipwright suddenly discovered he had no styrene cement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Dobbs, when I was sailing La Grace we did 5 knots with the wind on the beam (90 degrees) and a relative wind speed of 15 knots with only three sails set. (All on the foremast and not well trimmed either.) I´d say we were in the "backing sails" category. La Grace is a typical 18th century brig. According to her captain she's always last in the tall ships races until the handicap is applied. She's also one of the oldest (in what is replicated and how closely).

    Tre Kronor (1840s, steel hulled) when running felt like there was no wind at all. She wasn't much slower than the wind. I can't remember numbers but there was an easily noticable difference. I guess the best sailers of the napoleonic wars would still be worse than Tre Kronor. Her captain told me he'd had her go more than 17 knots momentarily.


    On the other hand if we're looking at Trafalgar...
    These are good observations, Jonas! A brig is a form of a sloop of war, almost comparable to a ship-rigged SoW (the fastest, most agile ship in the game). A SoW's Full Sails is not quite twice as fast as its Backing Sails, so shall we say a SoW's top speed at Full Sails is 9 knots? It would then follow that all other ships are slower at Full Sails.

    I would argue that at Trafalgar, Nelson wanted to make Backing Sails speed in extremely light air, hence the use of studding sails in combat (almost never heard of).

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    Worth noting on the other hand is that at 5 knots relative wind speed (still 90 degrees) La Grace at the same sails still did 3 knots and we got up to almost 6 when the wind (at 15 knots) came a little more aft.

    I can't really say how fast La Grace would be with all sails set and well handled on a broad reach with a good blow. I'd still guess at least 10 knots.

    The Captain told the helmsman (with me there) that if the wind got up to 20 knots he had to turn downwind. She had a weather helm and if the wind got up to 25 knots she could topple over. With sails only set on the foremast we would have to turn downwind to keep a good control.
    To get maximum speed we would have set all staysails and the spanker and main sail and main topsail, and at high winds taking in the topgallants, and most of all trimmed the angles and that could have increased our speed significally.

    The weird thing with Sails of Glory is that since you have to add a ship's base to the movement there's no slow speeds and the highest speeds are not that much faster.

    ...and I want to say, great looking model, but its easier to say weird looking model...

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    I think I've got a pretty convincing Ship Card:

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    Last edited by Dobbs; 06-09-2018 at 13:29.

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    Hmmm, try this:

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    Last edited by Dobbs; 06-09-2018 at 17:08.

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    It's a cracker Dobbs.
    That's the hard part done then.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Checking the mast positioning on the experimental hull. The final hull is in the foreground.

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    The final hull still needs to receive its upper deck and guns. Next comes the deck hardware like the paddlewheel box, bowsprits, and smokestacks.

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    Coming on very nicely indeed. I can't wait to see the finished article.

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    I added the bulwarks this morning. The other models don't show them, but the ship was designed to have a ring of packed cotton bales on the main deck when she went into battle (an early version of the cotton-clads of the ACW). In the larger models, you can see the iron fence that the bales would have attached to.

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    The funnels (smokestacks) are in position, but I am going to make them a little larger diameter once I get larger styrene rod. Yet to come, the paddlebox, ship's boats, bow/stern sprits, and deck hardware. Then guns and painting.

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    Impressive modelling, weird model.

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    I do like the gradual transition Dobbs. gives me time to absorb fully what you are doing at each stage.
    It must be my age!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Intersting project.

    Looks like an armed & floating bathtube to me.

    I'm curious for the final product, too.

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    Demologos continues her fitting out. Her paddle box has been installed. Capstans sit between the box and the masts. Next to come, hatches.

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    Coming along very nicely Dobbs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    It's turning out to be a gorgeous model of a weird ship.

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    All of the deck fittings are on. Tomorrow I start to paint. The furled sails will be added toward the end of the paint job.

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    Very cool build of a very weird ship. I imagine it did also have sails for emergency use since there are yards?

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    All the early steamships had the facility for either form of motivation Steve.

    Very useful if you ran out of fuel mid ocean. The new order of "up funnel, down sails", later refined to "up funnel down screw" with the advent of the propeller superseding the paddle wheel for motivation emanates from this period.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilge Rat View Post
    Very cool build of a very weird ship. I imagine it did also have sails for emergency use since there are yards?
    Apparently Fulton did not design her with masts, Her first captain made the suggestion, and back then captains could make design changes, so finished, she had an anemic lateen rig for sailing in either direction.

    She was designed for coastal operations, and could theoretically steam for 4 days burning wood, or 10 days burning coal. I think the longest she was ever really out was a jaunt down to Sandy Hook and back.

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    An interesting extra bit of information there Dobbs.
    Thanks Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Demologos is proceeding at about the rate that it took to build the original ship, but I'm getting close. Only the guns and smoke remain. Speaking of smoke, I'd appreciate any insights from my fellow modelers on how to make convincing smoke. Since she would have burned coal, with no forced draft, it would have been a lazy black smoke coming out of the stacks.

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    You can see my efforts at smoke from the twin stacks of the Ironclad SS Wolfenbuttle here Dobbs,

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    and also smoke issuing from a sinking ship here.

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    In both cases I used cushion filling teased out and painted with diluted black and grey acrylic paint. Often very early coal burners even had some sparks and flame issuing from the stacks when first fired up, but that is further than I would go.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Looking good :) (and BZ on the pre-dread too!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    You can see my efforts at smoke from the twin stacks of the Ironclad SS Wolfenbuttle here Dobbs,

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    and also smoke issuing from a sinking ship here.

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    In both cases I used cushion filling teased out and painted with diluted black and grey acrylic paint. Often very early coal burners even had some sparks and flame issuing from the stacks when first fired up, but that is further than I would go.
    I love pre-dreadnaughts! Where do the miniatures come from? Are the main turrets fixed, or can they be moved? How long is that miniature?

    Thanks for the missing bit of information, Rob. I was eyeing up cotton balls, but figured that acrylic paint would make them too dense. Plastic fluff is the perfect solution.

  45. #45
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    Glad to be of service to you for once Dobbs, after all you have given to the Anchorage in advice and help to myself. it seems a very little thing to do in return.
    The pre-dreadnaught is actually a scratch build from an old Dreadnaught hull I had. I cut down the bows to a more bluff point, and added an extra thickness to the waterline to build the ram at the front. All the ships boats, ventilators, secondary armament and masts were out of my odds and sods box. Upper works, plasticard, and the main turrets are turned aluminium. with two diameters of brass tube which fit inside each other for the gun barrels.
    The two masts and rigging lines actually unplug for storage.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    The pre-dreadnaught is actually a scratch build from an old Dreadnaught hull I had. I cut down the bows to a more bluff point, and added an extra thickness to the waterline to build the ram at the front. All the ships boats, ventilators, secondary armament and masts were out of my odds and sods box. Upper works, plasticard, and the main turrets are turned aluminium. with two diameters of brass tube which fit inside each other for the gun barrels.
    The two masts and rigging lines actually unplug for storage.
    Rob.
    It is an outstanding model! I would have a real weakness for pre-dreadnaughts if someone was selling kits, and there was a game like SoG for them.

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    There ar quite a few decent sets of pre-dreadnought rules out there. What the world needs is an affordable series of 1/1200 or 1/1800 scale models.....

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    Thanks very much for your comment, and the Rep Dobbs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    There ar quite a few decent sets of pre-dreadnought rules out there. What the world needs is an affordable series of 1/1200 or 1/1800 scale models.....
    I agree wholeheartedly Dave. If only!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    There ar quite a few decent sets of pre-dreadnought rules out there. What the world needs is an affordable series of 1/1200 or 1/1800 scale models.....
    Dave, are you implying that there are models, they're just not affordable? Where would I find these? What's your favorite set of pre-dreadnought rules?

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