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Thread: Optional rules.

  1. #1
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    Default Optional rules.

    Whilst in general agreement with the Optional rules for movement and signalling, a couple or so things give me some concern.

    One is the inability to position the Flagship in the center of the squadron or fleet. This was often where it was in fact placed.

    Second is the restriction on changing sail settings until within one ruler of the enemy.
    In the approach the faster sailors are liable to run foul of slower ships in front of them unless given the capacity to shorten sail.

    The third although not a deal breaker is the not allowing of the enemy to alter orders in response to your own ships movement which seems a bit unfair on the poor old AI. I wondered if it would be feasible to use a system like the ability card. The Admiral may signal a change of direction to the Fleet. May be played twice per game, or something of that nature.
    I would welcome your comments.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    The signals are open for change. I did have more signals for forming line before and after. If a player wants to start with the flag in ghe middle then so be it. But the formation should be similar to those mentioned. I have yet to work out a set of signals for the AI. It is hard enough with your own fleet. Perhaps the starting formation for the AI could be chosen by random after the player has chosen his.
    You could always have the AI pick out a target ship to sail at. This could simulate them breaking the line or crossing the T. It is hard to simulate the reaction of the AI to a players change of signal without a 2nd player stepping in. I'm open to ideas and the signals were not set in stone just a starting framework.

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    As for sail settings I always move the fleet using the slowest ships cards for movement as long as they are in formation. Once formation is broken, ie boarding or running afoul etc then that ship acts independently until it reforms into formation or is ordered to do something else.

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    I have placed Neil's Fleet Rules in the Campaign Rules thread as an optional rule.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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    Thanks Bob.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #6
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    No problem with any of it then Neil.
    You may notice that I did not give any suggestions as to how the AI could be managed as I really do not have a clue, but it will be great fun trying it out to see if we can work the oracle.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    A hasty try at formulating some AI fleet rules (and apologies you will need dice).

    A Choose a formation for your fleet and position with that formation for your flagship.
    B Position your own fleet as per the scenario guideline in its starting formation.
    C Roll 1d6 for AI formation and a 2nd for position of AI flagship. Then position AI as per scenario.

    AI Formation Flagship
    1 Line Ahead.............1 First
    2 Line Astern.............2 Second
    3 Oblique Left ............3 Middle
    4 Oblique Right...........4 Middle
    5 Line Abreast Right....5 2nd last
    6 Line Abreast Left......6 Last

    D Roll 2d6 on the orders chart for the AI fleet.

    AI Orders
    2 Keep to windward of enemy.
    3 Keep to leeward of enemy.
    4 Close to 1/2 range and engage.
    5 Close to 1/4 range and engage.
    6 Always maintain long range.
    7 Close and attempt to board. Once close enough only draw an E chit for players ship, if a crew is drawn then carry out a boarding action.

    8 Form a double line and engage enemy from both sides.
    9 Break enemy line, roll a D3 and this is the gap the fleet will attempt to pass through.
    10 Keep to leeward of enemy.
    11 Keep to windward of enemy.
    12 Withdraw at all speed away from the enemy.

    E Once any AI ship is within range roll on the following chart.
    1 AI ship has managed to double shot guns if under 1/2 range. If not fire ball as normal.
    2 If French and within range will fire at masts and sails, if not fire ball as normal.
    3 If this ship fired last move it can fire again due to fast reload.
    4 If under 1/4 range will fire D chits. If not , fire ball as normal
    5 If under 1/4 range will fire C chits. If not fire ball as normal.
    6 Will fire ball only.
    Note: Any ship that fired the previous move can only fire again if a 3 is rolled.

    F An AI fleet will change orders when:
    i It looses a ship for any reason. +1 to roll
    ii It looses 2 ships for any reason in the same turn. +2 to roll
    iii The AI flagship is lost for any reason. +3 to roll
    iv The players flagship is lost for any reason. -3 to roll
    v The player looses 2 ships for any reason -2 to roll
    vi The player looses a ship for any reason. -1 to roll
    Last edited by Union Jack; 02-03-2017 at 16:11.

  8. #8
    Admiral of the Fleet.
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    Did you see this suggestion I made in Pell Mell yesterday Neil.

    Maybe we could use the same sort of criteria which we do with Aircraft on the Drome. A series of factor add up .Ship hull damage, loss of crew, have nearby ships struck or sunk, is captain wounded etc, reach breaking point and if possible run.

    If not, we are thinking alike. You have developed the sort of thing I had in mind only a couple of hours before you wrote this.

    If they are not quick Ares will have missed this boat as well. We may well have a workable system in place and tested before they do.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I could add another list for individual ships within a squadron along the lines of the 'Drome. I'll have a bash and add it on later today.

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    An addition:

    G Moral for ALL individual ships (Player & AI)
    i A ships moral is burdenx2 (+1 if the Flagship)
    ii Roll 2d6 Whenever a ship is:
    Raked
    Hull damage exceeds 50%
    Crew loss exceeds 50%
    Looses 4+ hull or crew this turn
    Captain killed
    When ordered by flagship or wishing to rejoin squadron itself.
    iii Adjust roll with table below
    iv If result is more than moral (Burden x 2 +1 if flagship) then that ship will disengage, withdraw from playing area and only fire if fire upon.


    -1 Each enemy ship sunk/captured
    -1 Boarding an enemy ship
    -2 Each enemy ship disengaging
    -2 Each enemy ship sunk/captured by this ship
    -2 Enemy flaship lost for any reason
    -3 Enemy flagship disengaging.
    +1 Hull Damage 50%+
    +1 Crew Loss 50%+
    +1 Friendly ship struck
    +1 Friendly ship sunk
    +1 Own Captain Wounded
    +1 Own Captain killed
    +1 4+ Hull boxes lost this turn
    +1 4+ Crew boxes lost this turn
    +1 On fire
    +1 For each lost mast
    +1 For each leak
    +1 For rudder damage
    +1 Being boarded
    +1 Any ship disengaging
    +2 Flagship disengaging
    +3 Flagship lost for any reason.
    Last edited by Union Jack; 02-04-2017 at 02:52.

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    For an example:
    Name:  Pell Mell 027 (640x360).jpg
Views: 330
Size:  145.9 KB

    San Isidro: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 8+4 = 12 greater than moral so must withdraw.
    +1 4 hull boxes lost this turn ( 2 leak special damage, 2 fire special damage, 2 full hull boxes to normal damage)
    +1 on fire
    +2 for 2 leaks

    Name:  Pell Mell 028 (640x360).jpg
Views: 319
Size:  156.1 KB

    Monarca: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 5+4 = 9 remains in the fight.
    +1 4 crew boxes lost this turn
    +1 1 lost mast
    +1 for rudder damage
    +1 friendly ship withdrawing (San Isidro)

  12. #12
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    I assume that the scores which are similar to:-

    +1 Own Captain Wounded
    +1 Own Captain killed

    Are not cumulative, but taken as an either or.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Yes Rob you are correct. However if moral is taken at different times it could be either or but yes not both together.

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    I'm going to try and give these a go today.

    This gives frigates a new role, harrying ships that are damaged and withdrawing, maybe capture a few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjl View Post
    This gives frigates a new role, harrying ships that are damaged and withdrawing, maybe capture a few.
    I have been very successful on two separate occasions using this ploy Hugh. It was the actions of the Frigates that encouraged me to hazard the Leander in the same way during our last mission.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack View Post
    For an example:
    Name:  Pell Mell 027 (640x360).jpg
Views: 330
Size:  145.9 KB

    San Isidro: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 8+4 = 12 greater than moral so must withdraw.
    +1 4 hull boxes lost this turn ( 2 leak special damage, 2 fire special damage, 2 full hull boxes to normal damage)
    +1 on fire
    +2 for 2 leaks

    Name:  Pell Mell 028 (640x360).jpg
Views: 319
Size:  156.1 KB

    Monarca: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 5+4 = 9 remains in the fight.
    +1 4 crew boxes lost this turn
    +1 1 lost mast
    +1 for rudder damage
    +1 friendly ship withdrawing (San Isidro)
    Neil,

    I don't understand. If Monarca rolls a 5+4=9 then added the 4 points as listed, then why isn't that 13 and she books too?
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack View Post
    For an example:
    Name:  Pell Mell 027 (640x360).jpg
Views: 330
Size:  145.9 KB

    San Isidro: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 8+4 = 12 greater than moral so must withdraw.
    +1 4 hull boxes lost this turn ( 2 leak special damage, 2 fire special damage, 2 full hull boxes to normal damage)
    +1 on fire
    +2 for 2 leaks

    Name:  Pell Mell 028 (640x360).jpg
Views: 319
Size:  156.1 KB

    Monarca: Moral = Burden 5x2 =10

    Takes a moral test for being raked:
    rolls 2d6 rolls 5+4 = 9 remains in the fight.
    +1 4 crew boxes lost this turn
    +1 1 lost mast
    +1 for rudder damage
    +1 friendly ship withdrawing (San Isidro)
    There is an optional rule covering the loss of the flagship on p. 40 of the rulebook

    FLAGSHIP

    One of the ships of each player may be designated as the agship, as indicated by the scenario or by players’ choice.

    If the flagship surrenders, sinks, explodes, or is anyway eliminated from the game, all the other ships of that side take two crew special damage markers and place them on the Crew Damage track, representing the effect of the loss on the morale of the crew.

    All the ships of the opposing side remove a crew damage marker from their crew loss boxes (if they have any) and move it to the “0” damage box, representing the improvement in their morale. Any ship that shot artillery or musketry in the current turn against the eliminated flagship removes two markers, instead.

    If the flagship exits the gaming area, the effects are the same, unless the scenario rules indicate otherwise.


    Does this sound too draconian?
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjl View Post
    I'm going to try and give these a go today.

    This gives frigates a new role, harrying ships that are damaged and withdrawing, maybe capture a few.
    This is the problem I'm having with my American fleet. The largest ships at that time were 3 rather large frigates. Everything else was 38 guns or less. The 3 larger frigates were ordered by Congress with a specific role in mind. They were to dominate any frigate on the high seas and out run any ship-of-the-line. They were never intend to form a line of battle and duke it out with anyone.

    I have used my 3 larger frigates to take on 3rd rated SOLs in these scenarios; something they were never intended to do. I am thankful for the 4th rated ships Ares has put out because the ships are more like what Constitution, President, and United States were built for.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  19. #19
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    I think in this case you should adopt a system which em,ploys several Captain and crew attributes to give them an edge over British 74s and give the 74s things like untrained crew etc.
    It is known that the American ships and crews of the late wars1808 onwards were of a better class than the British Captain's and crews who seemed to have lost that Nelsonian spark, apart from the odd captains such as Pellew, and Cochrane.
    Look at the series of defeats which we suffered at the hands of the Americans. Your ships and crews should be a reflection of this to the extent that a Super frigate should be able to give a 74 a good run for its money.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I think in this case you should adopt a system which em,ploys several Captain and crew attributes to give them an edge over British 74s and give the 74s things like untrained crew etc.
    It is known that the American ships and crews of the late wars1808 onwards were of a better class than the British Captain's and crews who seemed to have lost that Nelsonian spark, apart from the odd captains such as Pellew, and Cochrane.
    Look at the series of defeats which we suffered at the hands of the Americans. Your ships and crews should be a reflection of this to the extent that a Super frigate should be able to give a 74 a good run for its money.
    Rob.
    During the War of 1812, the Americans spent much of the war bottled up in port because the British fleet were blockading it.

    The super frigates were supposed to run from a British 74 not fight it.

    Our fleet was very small and we were just beginning to build, not very successfully, bigger ships. Congress has always lacked the will and the budget, then as now.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  21. #21
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    Sorry Bob I must have misinterpreted what you were saying.
    I thought you were looking for a way of getting a game against the larger ships which most of us use employing your American Frigates.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Sorry Bob I must have misinterpreted what you were saying.
    I thought you were looking for a way of getting a game against the larger ships which most of us use employing your American Frigates.
    Rob.
    No apologies are necessary. I chose to use my country's navy knowing it was a fledgling navy and put it in situations that represent the kinds of things it was used for. I alter the scenarios to fit the needs of my ships. Rather than run from a 1st rated SOL I down size it to a 74 or infuture to a 4th rated ship, then play the scenario. My comment was a poorly written acknowledgement of those changes and that a straightforward line of battle was not in my future.

    I actually thought about going Spanish this year. Go Barcelona!
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  23. #23
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    As the stats are for 4th rates, even the older version of Constitution have an advantage. No need to run there. (And they were nearly not contemporary, so that may not be too far from the truth.)

  24. #24
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    Quite a move Bob!
    It just struck me that you would be changing your beautiful large Frigates, to undersized ships of the line. However, the firepower is immense. . .
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Quite a move Bob!
    It just struck me that you would be changing your beautiful large Frigates, to undersized ships of the line. However, the firepower is immense. . .
    Rob.
    I'm not ready to make the switch yet. I've just finished November's scenario; I won but lost 2 ships, had a super frigate completely wrecked, and another severely damaged. It may be easier just to switch. Don't know yet though.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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