By Jove I needed that!Originally Posted by Diamondback
*smacks Bligh with dirty sweat-sock*
:p
Thanks DB.
Bligh.
By Jove I needed that!*smacks Bligh with dirty sweat-sock*
:p
Thanks DB.
Bligh.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
What software would you use to build the 3D model? I've often thought of doing this myself but it would take a long time in autocad.
Hugh, Gina suggested Delftship--what she uses, which will let you set the blueprint as a background and if I understand it right grab-drag-stretch the lines until they match.
I have DraftSight on my laptop (similar to AutoCAD but by Dassault, with full export-import) and I wouldn't attempt this with it. If you're over on the Aerodrome too, send me a PM over there and I'll let you in on what I'm thinking. :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I'm not on aerodrome. You can pm me here?
I use the free version of Delftship. It's very user-friendly and well documented. Plus, it's made specifically for hull design.
Once you get comfortable with Delftship, you can extrude the top edge inward to make a thickness for the bulwarks, and then extrude it down again for the inner side of the bulwarks, then extrude it inwards to make the deck to cover the top of the hollow hull shape.
Another tip: I usually export my initial hull model into netfabb basic (also free) to perform a default repair on it. This ensures it's watertight and removes the inevitable bad faces, etc. Then I bring it into Meshmixer (also free) and use the "Make Solid" function to make it a solid model instead of just a shell. This I find makes it sturdier and more printable, and the added material is negligible at this tiny scale.
My rigging started with a simple line drawing from a source book showing a front view of a square-rigged mast and sails. I turned it into a black silhouette and converted the drawing into an svg file in Blender (also free), then imported it into 123D Design, whch lets you extrude an svg drawing into a 3d shape. That left me with what looked like a flat cookie cutout of a mast and sails. To give it rounded dimension, I imported into Meshmixer and then just sculpted freehand to make the sails billowy, etc. Then in 123D I Boolean joined a set of cylinders scaled so as to make the three heights of mast section. I also joined some rectangular pieces into that assembly to make fighting tops and help reinforce the mast. Finally, I brought the sails piece back into 123D and Boolean joined it to the completed mast. The whole thing got exported back out of 123D as a single stl file, for more repair and scaling before being sent to Shapeways.
As you can see, the workflow is very involved and no single design software suffices for all of it. It's just easier to buy the prints from me! But if you want to learn it so you can do it yourself, it's very empowering because then you can make anything imaginable -- provided it can be printed.
I designed the hull of a roro in autocad. Imported the table of offsets from an excel file and then rendered the hull around the stations. Then I Drew the weather deck and bridge at about 1/1000 and had it printed out as a demo piece for an initial design concept presentation.
I have just started using shipbuilder which is a plugin for autocad. It works very similar to the software you mentioned. I'm pretty sure it isn't free though.
I've made a couple of hulls actually, bizmark, titanic. All from the tables of offsets. Shame they don't exist for ships of the line. I make them so that I can print them out and get an idea oh how different hulls look to compare them for future designs.
When I get my printer back up and running I might give this a try and then see how small I can go.
Also going to try and break it into component pieces.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1384301
Alan, printing that Constitution should be an interesting "control" to compare to the Ares model, just to help determine the limits of SLP in SGN.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
It will certainly be an interesting exercise.
I will keep my fingers crossed for a successful outcome.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I'm reading and watching all these discussions with much interest.
GIve me a shout when you get to the Santisima Trinidad?
P.S. Or the appropriately scale size for the Meregildos?!!!
Last edited by Nightmoss; 02-15-2017 at 09:18. Reason: Added content
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
DB, I have been busy and I am back to the blog just now. I thought about it and I would feel uncomfortable to suggest to "reject the entire batch" based only on my calculation. I did it just to compare Meregildos. My calculation are based on a waterline length measured "from the base of the cathead to the stern post" which is good to identify a "pattern". If we want to give ARES a better advice I should redo the entire check starting from proper data. For instance if the line drawing you posted are 1/1000 scale I can compare them with the models taking measures from both the drawing and the models. In this way the results would be more reliable. What do you think? Does it make sense?
Last edited by Comandante; 02-15-2017 at 11:17.
DB, about beam. I don't really think they did fat boy models. The two (scales) lines on the diagram are pretty close, the difference in beam might well be of fractions of a millimeter, with not so reliable data available and rounding up could be difficult to tell. As soon as I have enough time I can check the beam to the best of my ability and let you know.
Ares my not be able to reject anyway depending on how they have developed the 3D models and transmitted them to the manufacturer. I get the impression the models are developed in Italy where they are "accepted" and then sent to the manufacturer, and as long as the model matches what is sent out then i guess there is no option to reject
very nice models Gina; do you think it would be possible to print them in WSF polished?
Having seen what Gina has to offer, I'm thinking more and more about that Santisima Trinidad.
How many of you shipmates would be up for one from Shapeways?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Franco, if you save the drawings up-thread to your machine they should be bang-on 1/1000 (or within a trivial fraction at least).
Methodology, given that the original draughts are 1/48.
1. Underlying approach: rescale the entire sheet as if part of ship. Take artifact dimensions recorded on page, multiply by 48.
2. Divide figure from (1) by 1000, this gives us a "target size" for converting the drawing to SGN scale.
3. Open "large" drawing view on page, save zoomed drawing and rename--I like to use drawing number, class name, and specific ship so it's all indexed right in the file name.
4. Open drawing in graphics editor, lock aspect ratio, resize to width from (2).
NOTE: If you're going to do Waterline drawing as above rather than Full-Hull, I suggest chopping before resizing. Waterlines will be a little inexact, but we're going for "close enough"--I use the horizontal line in the skinny "post" part of the cutwater when I can clearly find it.
To my eye, the proportions on the models are pretty close, so Fat Boy was a theoretical discussion... though MINI-gildos is as big of a faux pas. By "reject batch," I had meant just that particular sculpt--on War at Sea Set 4, I think Rich Baker made the right choice when faced with an unacceptable mini about "cut it out of the set and do it again right next time."
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
DB, got it, thanks, I will try to figure out how to work it out and I will start working as soon as I find the time.
Last edited by Comandante; 02-15-2017 at 15:05.
I will, if she doesn't get too expensive.
Yes, all or most of my items could be printed in White Polished. It would add about 30% to the cost. If you specify an item or a list of items that interests you, I can switch on the option for WSF Polished and those prices for those items to make them available for you to order.
Franco, intent with giving you and everyone else the process too was so that you could check my work as well--if we both come up with same or similar result independently, that means the process worked as designed. I actually built a spreadsheet that once I put in the original sheet size it'll automatically tell me the target image size, doing all the math for me in one easy move. (Original drawing size) * 48/1000 = (Target drawing size).
My screen has some funky scaling issues and this hotel doesn't have a business center, so I'm gonna have to ask somebody else to open or print the drawings and measure their waterlines.
I always welcome people checking my work and showing me how I can do it better. :)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I am happy to do that for you DB if you mark the waterline with a red line so that I can see it clearly to measure. I can then use my optical calipers. My porinter will give me wysiwyg. as long as you know the original drawing was done at A4 size. I can set the printer to A4. Send me one and I will try it out.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Rob, all you should need to do is right click any of the drawings above and hit Save As, then print it (Actual Size, not Fit To Page)--where tan or gray meets white will be the waterline.
I'll see if I can assemble you a PDF on A4 with all the drawings except 103 (no rescale possible without Greenwich declaring drawing scale), 108 (sculpt never existed) and 201 (see 108). These will be pure 1/1000, so no "sliding scale of size." It may take a bit, I'm trying to work on putting something special together for the girlfriend to give her a reason to come visit and every time I turn around the State Department is convinced that the sole purpose of their entire oxygen-wasting, in-dire-need-of-swift-kick-in-the-balls bureaucratic existence is to be a mind-boggling pain in my arse.
1984 was a cautionary tale, not a how-to manual, you bloody imbeciles! *flipoff*
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON THAT REMARK STRIKES A CHORD DB.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
If you mean these DB.
My eyes are not good enough to differentiate even when I cut and paste them without a much darker line.
Sorry.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Oh! I got a reply to my facebook post.
I just posted up some of the comments from here with the technicalities of where there are differences.
Ill post any replies that i get.
me: Hi guys, im a bit curious about some of the new ships. I bought a Portland and Artesien from the wave 3 ships and the scales look wrong. They seem to be closer to 1/1200 than 1/1000. Is this deliberate, are you redoing your lines in a new scale?
Thanks
SOG: Hugh, no there was not a change of scale. We designed them 1:1000 based on the documents we could find. What makes you think the scale changed?
me: this is the Argonauta (53m) on the left vs a Temeraire (length 56m) on the right. There was a roughly 3m difference between the two ships in reality, as you can see here that is not the case. The Argonauta is far smaller than the Temeraire. This is consistent with the rest of the wave 3 release. Most of the ships are far smaller than they should be. (picture of ship waterlines from page 2)
If we assume a roughly 1/1000 scale then the dimensions of the ships against what they are in reality are listed below, the left is what they should be and the right is what they are
Swan 29m 31mm
Amazon 38m 38mm
Concorde 44m 43mm
Hebe 46m 45mm
Bellona 51m 53mm
Nepomuceno* 54m 48mm
Temeraire 56m 56mm
Umpire 58m 56mm
Meregildos 59m 50mm
Ocean 64m 60mm
Victory 56m 58mm
Constitution 53m 59mm
As you can see, the Nepo and Meregildos are very far off of their 1/1000 scale sizes, in some cases by almost 1cm. This is what caught the eye of some of the people on www.sailsofglory.com. Which is what lead me to wonder if you are re scaling some of the ships.
*******
It would appear that they arent aware of any problem at the moment. Interesting.
Well Hugh, they are now.
Thanks for posting that.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Denial: Not just a river in Africa...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Reply
SOG: Thanks for the additional comments. We will double check with the modeller and the engineers involved in the process.
It will be very interesting to heare what they have to say.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
How could they not be aware of this issue? It's a pretty far stretch to imagine that someone in the home office doesn't have ships on hand to either play the game or take to shows, etc. My confidence in Ares is dropping a great deal!
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Denial is step one. Anger follows. 4 more steps before Acceptance and maybe correction?
Anger leads to the dark side......
I guess they aren't naval wargamers at heart, so probably not aware. Or maybe they just haven't taken then out of the box yet (like me - mine arrived a while back but real life issues mean I'venot had any of them out yet)
Oh, and didn't they downsize one or two of the single seaters in WOW?
"Anger, fear, aggression, Yankees... the Dark Side are they."
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
But one would think they'd have checked the Pre-Prod Samples... and hopefully they'll scrutinize the samples for future runs more closely. I expect Wave 3 to be like the Tripe and 109K: "oops, our bad, but it'd cost too much to retool and replace..."
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Yes, but check it against what? If the 3d model length was X and the physical model was X then it meets the requirements as far as they are concerned, The fact that the requirement may be wrong in the first place.....
Very true Dave. Very true.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
True... which means that though we shouldn't HAVE to do this, you and I as the research team need to give them Upper and Lower Limits to check against and say "anything outside this range is unacceptable"--I'm thinking either take the Designed Length from the drawings and +/-1mm, or take the longest and shortest classmembers, add 1mm to longest and subtract 1mm from shortest.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hey Hugh, since you have found an ear at Ares, maybe now would be a good time to tell them about the mizzen masts being reversed on the ship cards for the 64's and 50's?
This may be the best answer for what happened that I've seen to date.
I first brought this up last year when I did take the ships out of the boxes and started comparing them; not so much as a wargamer, but definitely as a modeler and kit basher. Even with the naked eye I knew something was up. Other issues came from other folks here (Jonas caught the backward sails, etc.).
I want my ships to be in close scale to one another so I hope this doesn't happen in Wave 4 or if/when they actually do a special of the Santisima Trinidad?!
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
I'm not sure I have their ear, I just asked them a direct question in a public forum that they can't simply ignore. I'll give them a while to reply and then push them publicly for a response.
Sometimes ya gotta back 'em into a corner... sucks, but there are times and people where it's the only thing that works. (Got real old having to serve that up on my mother every month when it was time to write the mortgage check, lemme tell ya...)
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
BTW, Rob, Dave, sent you guys a forward with the next draft on my "Iceberg" note--if you're willing and when you have time would appreciate your thoughts. Local independent reviewer already gave me one greenlight, so if one of you gives me a green and the other at worst a yellow (my personal rule before dropping the hammer on things like this is three outside opinions scoring at least Two Green No Red) then I'm ready to go forward.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I had no quibble with any of it DB.
If anything I found it fairly mild.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Thanks, Rob--thinking is "GET them talking again first, then dialogue rather than broadside... Boil The Frog Slowly."
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Hugh, have you heard back from Ares yet after them saying they were going to check with their designers?
I'm waiting for one more signoff on Draft 3 of my own note to Roberto before I file my own WTF-O-Gram... Right now I have "two green" toward my "Two Green No Red outside-review" rule, I just need a Yellow at worst from #3.
It's a philosophy that served me well on term papers in college, and position papers as a policy-wonk... and in formulating doctrines, policy and procedures in my former Executive Protection career, where others potentially lived or died based on the quality of my judgment. (As we say in the trade, "there's no such thing as 'paranoid,' only 'paranoid ENOUGH'...")
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Nope, I asked again and nothing.
I sense some annoyance at Ares.......
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