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Thread: Skeleton Crews?

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    Default Skeleton Crews?

    Just had a question for those of us more expert on the meat-side than the machinery-side.

    What were the bare minimum crews required just to sail various rates, not even thinking about running a gun deck? And then from there, what would have been a bare minimun "fighting" crew able to put up even a token fight?

    I'm working on a Campaign mechanic for crew transfer, and stuck trying to figure out crew-transfer mechanics like how much you'd need to take off of a 32, or how many smaller ships you'd need to cannibalize, to get a 64 or 74 back into fighting trim. :)

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    This is a bit of a piece of string question DB. Take a Frigate under plain sail in fair weather running before the wind. Say 20 men to handle the sails. two steering. But two watches so 44 men. Men to man the pumps if the ship were long from home. Men to attend to the Anchor and its catting etc. If sail setting was needed more men aloft. I would not really like to take a ship out without say a third of its crew.
    Rob.

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    Let's assume Combat Conditions. What percentage of the company lost before gunfire stops and time to leave, and what percentage before not even that and Strike Colors time?

    If I have those, I can determine roughly how many men each box represents per ship (call it to a nearest 10, 25, 100 or whatever nice-round-number block) and then determine exchange-rates--how much damage to put on a frigate to make an SOL viable, or for an abandoned frigate how many Crew Loss chits an SOL carrying the abandoned frigate's crew gets to ignore as "free hits" before it starts normal attrition. Or how many guns you have to mark one ship down to repair and refit another. :)

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    If you take a gun crew of six men. Five could handle it with ease. four for some time but tiredness would come into force. Fire rate would slacken. Three would struggle, and eventually stop. Also as gun crew tended to man both sides, moving across as needed, both sides would be equally effected. I'm not sure how Carronades would fare, as they were easier to manhandle.
    Striking colours usually went with morale, but the loss of all masts, or significant Officers could effect it.
    Rob.

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    Carronades would probably decay slower--which tangentially suggests another bonus for all-carronade-armed ships, perhaps it takes two Crew chits to fill the first 1/4 or 1/3of boxes.

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    That is indeed a very good thought DB.
    I am rather hoping that someone like Dobbs with expertise in actually sailing can confirm how many hands would be need to sail a ship in different conditions.
    All I know for sure is that Captains liked to get Fighting sails set well before an action so that hands were not needed aloft to carry out difficult sail manipulations.
    Rob.

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    The brig I went sailing on a month or so ago had been sailed on 5 men for a whole day. It'd been hard work but it can be done. They had sailed for days with 8 men. The rigging of that brig is a little more modern than the ships we consider our period and do require less people, but not by very much. I think the original was from the first half of the nineteenth century.

    The thing to consider is that when doing more complicated or heavy work you call "all hands" which usually means that you can sail a smaller ship on surprisingly few men.

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    A very interesting example of what can be done in smaller ships.
    I wonder if we can get an insight into a Frigate or larger sailing vessels that we could then sail up for Sol.
    Could do with someone who knows the Sailing Master of the Hermione.
    Rob.

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    One of the crew of Tre Kroner had sailed on Hermione, but I never asked what her minimum crew was.

    He said she was much heavier to work so I guess a first rate would need quite a few hands pulling when setting those huge sails...

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    The General History of the Pirates, a contemporary source published in 1724, gives a good sampling of merchant ship crew sizes from a list of Captain Edward England's victims in 1719. England's nine captured ships had crews of 17, 18, 18, 30, 2, 18, 18, 13, and 14. The one with two was a sloop, but even for such a small vessel that would have been severely undermanned; presumably much of the crew had died or gone ashore at the time of the capture. These ships would most likely have been trading for slaves, ivory, gold, or salt, the main exports of the West African coast at that time. East Indiamen on the spice trade might well have had more crewmen.

    For a warship, very roughly one man per three tons burthen, much less for a merchant ship. In Treasure Island the Hispaniola, a schooner of "two hundred tons" was even handled temporarily and in a very rudimentary way by one boy advised by a wounded, hung-over pirate (although that was fiction).

    As a wild guess, for merchant ships a normal minimum crew might be something like 6 plus 1 per 100 tons.

    Crew size depended on the size and rig of the ship. A two-masted schooner might have a crew of five, while a clipper ships might carry eighty to a hundred men. A four-masted schooner at the end of the nineteenth century had a crew of about eleven; a Down Easter had a crew of twenty to thirty.

    30 people could definitely sail a small frigate, and a medium sized one could probably still manage with 30, but that'd be a minimal crew. The USS Constitution still sails today(oldest commisioned naval vessel still afloat) with a crew of 60, and that was much larger and more heavily armored than a standard frigate of that era
    Last edited by Union Jack; 10-19-2016 at 16:16.

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    I am reading a book about Thomas Cochrane, and last evening ran across a comment about him sailing his Frigate of 38 guns with a crew of 20 men whilst the rest were cutting out and sailing five prizes.
    He did allude to having the sails specially rigged with trailing lanyards instead of the usual gaskets so that they could be let fall from the deck, but otherwise he managed. I would therefore think that Neil's estimate of 3O would be about right.
    Corchrane did say that he only had enough crew to man his two bow chasers, however,(so no heroics with the guns al a Aubery allowed gentlemen).
    Rob.

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    Rob, can you get me the name of Cochrane's ship at that time? I found a table on Wikipedia that's some help, but with a name I can go back to BWAS, look up the design data and figure a percentage. (Obviously, one box for a Large 74 would not be the same as a Common, and one box on a threedecker could easily exceed the entire crew of a sloop.)

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    She was the Pallas 32. of 667 tons. Just checked back. I got it a bit wrong. I had it in my head that it was the Imperieuse 38 which was his next Frigate. The actual skeleton crew was 40. 30 to sail her and five men on each of the Bow chaser guns.
    Rob.

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    I wouldn't think skeleton crew would be what would be left when the crew boxes run out. I would say that would be about half the crew left. If you look at casualty numbers when a ship strikes it is very seldom more than half the crew i casualties and if so, those few instances could be attributed to a Charismatic Captain.

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    I was thinking "Skeleton Sailing" is the last box with no Gunnery stat, "Skeleton Fighting" is the box before that.

    Jonas, am I correct that you're thinking I should take the total design crew, divide in half, then divide the result by the number of boxes? (Say, if by that math an SOL's Crew box is 25 men and a frigate's 10, that means I need to put 3 counters on the frigate to remove one on the SOL.)

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    1804 Pallas carried 220, 1794 Pallas (one of only three 18-pdr 32's) 250-260. Both would probably be eight-boxers, so call it one box is around 12-15 men each on a 32?

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    I would say about that number. I don't think there were any ship of the line that still fought with about 500 wounded and dead because they had 100 left and they only need 50 to sail her. There were a few instances where they fought in a "only death will stop us" kind of way but that is very rare.

    I would like to hear others weigh in on this. David Manly?

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    I would expect that 50% casualties would break the morale of most crews, unless there was a charismatic Captain, or they were fighting alongside another friendly ship to reduce one enemy.
    For a normal boarding or cutting out expedition, I would expect the Captain to retain about a third of the crew.
    25% as an absolute minimum unless his name was Pellew, Cochrane, or Nelson.
    Rob.

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    Just read a comment in "Trafalgar" by David Howarth where he states that only 10% of a crew were needed to sail it.
    Rob.

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    So we have some numbers to assemble...

    10% minimum to move at all
    50% bare minimum to fight

    Implication:
    Each box equals 1/(2x total number of Crew boxes) of Total Crew. So now we need to find a table of the RN standard ratings establishments...

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    By this do you simply mean ship type A 450 men, or Ship type A 40 men for sails, 5 for each gun crew, 80 wasters etc?
    Rob.

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    Rob, I just mean total crew. I'll go back through Sail & Steam Navy List and BWAS and build one myself if need be. Say Lg. 74=775, Middling/Common 74=750, just for some made-up examples.

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    I think the captain of a Common 74 with 750 crew would be very impressed by the success of impressment. They were more in the area of 600 to my knowledge.

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    Jonas, like I said, I was just pulling some made-up numbers out of my ass for illustration with no concern for off-the-cuff accuracy...

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    I think we should be able to find some average numbers for most ships amongst our books somewhere. As soon as I get the games room cleared up a bit I will have a search myself.
    Rob.

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    Just getting the table coded for now, will add data later... would rather assemble in Excel first. :) So far, I do have enough to note that at around 837 crew for a typical First Rate, their minimum effective combat crew is 420 (assuming "strike colors at half casualties") yielding an average of 35 crew per box. Smaller ships I expect lower averages...

    Bold entries are official in-game units; italics are extrapolated "best guesses". "Crew/chit" assumes modifying game mechanics to apply "crew" damage same as hull. Min Effective, Crew/Box and Crew/Chit all use the Lower Limit values.
    Rate Rating Lower Limit Upper Limit Min
    Effective
    Hull Boxes/
    Burden
    Crew/
    Box
    Crew/
    Chit
    1 120 875 (Caledonia des) 900 (SGN108 Hibernia) 438 12x6 37 6
    1 110 837 (SGN108 Ville de Paris) 419 12x6 35 6
    1 104
    1 100 837 (late 100's) 850 (SGN108 1762 Britannia orig) 419 12x6 35 6
    2 98 (special) 738 (1810 Boyne) 369 12x6 31 5
    2 98 738 (post-1794 std) 750 (pre-1794 std) 369 11x6 34 6
    2 90 750 (all pre-upgun) 375 11x6 34 6
    2-3 84 650 (Royal William post 1782) 750 (same pre-1782) 325 11x6 30 5
    3 80 719 (Caesar post 1794) 738 (French prizes) 360 10x6 36 6
    3 74 Large 635 (Triumph post-1794) 700 (Invincible 1747) 318 10x6 or
    10x5
    32 6 or
    5
    3 74 Middling 640 (Carnatic) 650 (Spanish prizes) 320 10x5 32 6
    3 74 Common 550 (Dublin) 600 (Mod Hero) 275 10x5 28 6
    3 68-70 480 (1733 Est 70) 520 (1745 Est 70) 240 10x5 or
    10x4
    24 5 or
    6
    3 64 pre-1761 std 64 1761-94 std 64 235 10x4 24 6
    3 60
    4 58 ex-74 razee 495 (Majestic grp) 248 10x4 25 6
    4 58 two-decker
    4 58 frigate 450 (President) 225 9x5 25 5
    4 56 two-decker 324 (std 1795 ex-EIM) 350 (Malabar) 162 10x4 16 4
    4 50 two-decker 300 (1741 Est 50) 350 (most 50's) 150 10x4 15 4
    4 50 frigate 450 (Leander) 480 (Newcastle design) 225 9x5 25 5
    5 44 two-decker 280 (1741 Est 44) 300 (Adventure) 140 10x3 14 5
    5 44 frigate 24# 300 (Endymion) 343 (ex-FR Fortes) 150 9x4 17 4
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-13-2016 at 00:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I think we should be able to find some average numbers for most ships amongst our books somewhere. As soon as I get the games room cleared up a bit I will have a search myself.
    Rob.
    Rob, what I'm planning to do is take the lowest and highest crews I can find for a given Rating and configuration in BWAS (IE, comparing the Humphreys superfrigates to other 58-gun frigates but not to two-decker 58's; or comparing 12pdr 36's to other 12pdr 36's but not to 18pdr ships of same rating). As I look at the stats so far, right now things look like where we see one- and two-decker versions of things the 2D gets 10 boxes while the 1D gets 9. I've projected 1810 Boyne to get 12 boxes on structural grounds with a lower crew/box average, all other Second Rates at 11 boxes, all Third Rates and two-decker Fourths at 10, Fourth and Fifth frigates at 9, Sixths at 8, 14-18 Unrateds at 7 (18 is the upper limit of Swan armament with Thorn), and 12's and below should they show up at 6.

    Santissima Trinidad will probably be a 12-boxer, with any crew boost handled by special-rule or adjustment to other stats since 12 is upper limit of what present Log layout can handle.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-08-2016 at 16:39.

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    Worth to note that French ships often had more crew even on the same ship. A Téméraire-class could have 750 crew in French service, be caught by the British and get 600 when recommissioned.

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    Firstly, great work to get things started DB.
    Second Jonas, I know that soldiers were often added to French crews to top up musket fire power from the tops and for carrying another vessel. Could that be the reason for the anomaly?
    Rob.

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    That probably was part of the reason. I also think that Britain also had a harder time to recruit enough for their ships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    That probably was part of the reason. I also think that Britain also had a harder time to recruit enough for their ships.
    You are right again Jonas.
    The Press Gang was only partially successful in filling the quota, and criminals from Jail were drafted in. British ships also stopped Neutral ships at sea, and searched for any English in their crews. Often some poor American who did not have his exemption certificate was kidnapped and ended up in a British Man o War.
    Even then they were often short handed.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    You are right again Jonas.
    The Press Gang was only partially successful in filling the quota, and criminals from Jail were drafted in. British ships also stopped Neutral ships at sea, and searched for any English in their crews. Often some poor American who did not have his exemption certificate was kidnapped and ended up in a British Man o War.
    Even then they were often short handed.
    Rob.
    And one of the "stated reasons" for the War of 1812--while it was a legitimate gripe, any honest historian must recognize there was also a little opportunism going on in D.C. with the invasion of Canada (which is STILL awkward when talking military history with the GF, as she's a Canuck).

    Speaking of, what are the chances of you guys coming back for a reenactment of August 1814? :p lol

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    Interesting discussion as I'm reading, Seize the Fire: Heroism, Duty, and Nelson's Battle of Trafalgar by Adam Nicolson. He makes reference to one of the Spanish casualties still wearing his harlequin costume, having been pressed into service in Cadiz, where he'd been performing the evening before. I haven't checked the references but I don't doubt that the French and Spanish had similar issues to crewing ships as the British.
    Last edited by Nightmoss; 11-10-2016 at 09:38. Reason: typo
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Both sides did, but from what I've read the British complained more of being short handed and I do think it was well grounded.
    The French on the other hand often had less well trained crew.

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    Trivial note: There is some method to Ares' madness, in that with the stats I've plugged into my spreadsheet and let it crunch numbers on so far each box seems to be in the range of 33 (on the archaic 66-gunners that were cut down from old three-decker 80s) to 37 (Caledonia and other 120's). 1810 Boyne is an outlier at 31/box because of her combination of low crew (all other 90/98's started at 750 and were reduced to 738 in 1794, while the Boynes were at 738 from the beginning) and having one more hull-box (from her First Rate structure as a carbon-copy of Victory).

    I've only gotten down into the Third Rates, there's a good chance this will break down as we get into two-deck cruisers, frigates and unrateds, but at least we seem to have a consistent rule for SoLs.

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    And as I thought it does fall apart.

    Three-deckers run around 35 crew/box, Third Rates 25-30, Razee 74 frigates 25, 18#+ frigates 12-14, Sixth Rates around 10, Unrateds around 7.

    EDIT: Not entirely, with one minor Rules Change. Yes, the Crew per Box varies... but if you apply damage to Crew the same as Hull where you need the Burden value in hits to fill the box rather than "one hit one box gone" the numbers reveal a consistent pattern of one chit being 4-7 men, let's call it 5 for the sake of Nice Round Numbers.

    Anyone feel like play-testing the "Extended Crew Damage" option to see how it changes the game? :)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-09-2016 at 23:47.

  37. #37
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    The nearest I had got to that, was to take the number of crew that Ares said was on each ship and divided it by the crew boxes shown on the card to get the number of men per box. This was to discern the number of men in a cutting out party or landing party. So say three boxes for a boarding party was 70 men or so. Not very sophisticated but it worked for reports of wounded and dead for an AAR.
    Your embryonic system seems far more accurate within the bounds of anomalies. It should give a good average.
    Unfortunately I can't test it out for a couple of weeks because of the demands of real life and availability of a playing space.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    a little opportunism going on in D.C. with the invasion of Canada
    Serious contender for "understatement of 2016" award

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    Also, I should note one other assumption: In light of how regularly the French upgunned their gaillards without telling anybody (remember, their frigate rating system only counted the main battery, so anything from a 32 up to a very small 44 would be a "frigate of 26 x 12" as long as they all had a UD armament with thirteen pairs of twelve-pounders), I'm assuming SGN101 to be statted more as 36's and 103 as 32's.

    I believe this simple assumption moves the ratings on SGN101/SGN103 from "WTF" to "ok, that makes some sense and gives us something to build around." Also, taking a look at the numbers again, maybe a half-dozen crew per chit would be a better "nice round number" for Extended Crew Damage--the numbers are so consistent they make me wonder if that approach might have actually been used early in development but cut before release to playtesters.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-10-2016 at 23:55.

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