A book that could be of interest to some

[7eat51]

Driving home a few minutes ago, I heard an interview with the author of the following book. I plan on ordering it. Maybe we can do a book club. Given that this book will cross the line into politics, I could look into starting a private thread only open to readers of the book to discuss it, and a few guidelines for said discussion. The only reason I would consider such a thing is its potential tie into our game, not unlike reading about the history behind WWI or WWII with respect to WoG; I am fully aware that the War of Independence occurred before War of 1812 or the Napoleonic era. Please, my Friends, let's not discuss anything political regarding this text, U.S./U.K. relations, etc., in this thread. This is simply an advertisement for this book, and for a potential private and civil discussion about history.

Empire on the Edge: How Britain Came to Fight America - http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Edge-Br...DPJJ2CV8Z3EWK7

Here's the author's bio from amazon: Nick Bunker is the author of Making Haste from Babylon, a history of the Mayflower Pilgrims, described by The Washington Post as “a remarkable success.” Educated at King’s College, Cambridge, and Columbia University, he was a journalist for the Liverpool Echo and the Financial Times, and then an investment banker, chiefly with the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation. During his careers in journalism and finance, he traveled widely in China, India, the former Soviet bloc, and the United States. He now lives in Lincolnshire, England.

[csadn]

Be interesting to see if he makes the connection between the war and KG3's mother.

[Bligh]

Be interesting to see if he makes the connection between the war and KG3's mother.

I am intrigued in return Chris.
Could you please elucidate? By PM if you like.
Rob.

[csadn]

I am intrigued in return Chris.
Could you please elucidate? By PM if you like.
Rob.

Short version: King George III's mother was the one who taught him to behave like an autocrat -- one of her reputed statements was "for God's sake, be a king". She taught him to ignore advisors; to demand his way, or no way; and all the myriad behaviors which so annoyed the Colonials (and not a few in Parliament).

[Kentop]

Short version: King George III's mother was the one who taught him to behave like an autocrat -- one of her reputed statements was "for God's sake, be a king". She taught him to ignore advisors; to demand his way, or no way; and all the myriad behaviors which so annoyed the Colonials (and not a few in Parliament).

Actually, the Brits themselves taught him to be an autocrat. They lopped off his grandfather's head and made the commoner Oliver Cromwell "Protector of the Realm". When the Hanoverian kings resumed their monarchy, they literally dug up Cromwell's carcass, burned it and put it his skull on a pike for display. They made sure that everybody from that point on, knew their place. They wouldn't tolerate uppity subjects disrespecting the crown. But His Majesty didn't have a whole lot to do with the colonies. It was Parliament that did stupid things like pass the stamp act which "so annoyed the Colonials". George III opposed independence, but he really wasn't involved. Parliament is the bad guy in this story.

[Bligh]

Hate to have to correct you Ken, but the Stuart Kings of England were the ones involved in the Civil war with Parliament.
When Queen Anne who was the last of the Stuart Line died without surviving issue, parliament had to ask George Elector of Hanover to take the throne. His grandson was George the Third.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Short version: King George III's mother was the one who taught him to behave like an autocrat -- one of her reputed statements was "for God's sake, be a king". She taught him to ignore advisors; to demand his way, or no way; and all the myriad behaviors which so annoyed the Colonials (and not a few in Parliament).

Thanks for the info Chris. I was unaware that it was his mother to blame for the debacle.
Rob.

[Herkybird]

Actually, the Brits themselves taught him to be an autocrat. They lopped off his grandfather's head and made the commoner Oliver Cromwell "Protector of the Realm". When the Hanoverian kings resumed their monarchy, they literally dug up Cromwell's carcass, burned it and put it his skull on a pike for display. They made sure that everybody from that point on, knew their place. They wouldn't tolerate uppity subjects disrespecting the crown. But His Majesty didn't have a whole lot to do with the colonies. It was Parliament that did stupid things like pass the stamp act which "so annoyed the Colonials". George III opposed independence, but he really wasn't involved. Parliament is the bad guy in this story.

Sorry, I think it was Charles the 2nd, another Stuart monarch who dug up Oliver Cromwell and hanged the corpse! - James 2nd, his successor was replaced several decades later by the Glorious Revolution in the form of William 3rd and Mary, followed by Queen Anne, and then the Hanoverians George 1st and 2nd, before George 3rds long reign. It was about 100 years between Cromwell and George 3rd.
I honestly think the English monarchy in the war of independance was not anywhere near as autocratic as most other European monarchs, thanks in many ways to the republic of Cromwell.
You are correct saying Parliament had the real power.

[Kentop]

You are right, Herkybird. It was about a 100 years between Cromwell and George 3rd. That's about how long it took for the restoration to work itself out. By the time George III came along, there was this huge social and political barrier between royals and commoners. George III was actually called the farmer king because of his keen agricultural interest. The commoners thought his interests were beneath him. It was a political point to call him an autocrat, because he preferred Tories to Whigs. But it was merely name calling by the Whigs.

[Herkybird]

It was about a 100 years between Cromwell and George 3rd. That's about how long it took for the restoration to work itself out.

I am uncertain about this - per se the restoration was sorted when a mix of Parliamentarians (including Sir William Waller) and the Royalists got Charles 2nd back on the throne, with more limited powers, and Charles had 'had his revenge' on the surviving regicides.
The role of monarchy was really sorted when the Dutch William, and Mary were brought in, with the mandate of a constitutional monarch, the later Hanoverians having the same mandate.
Suffice it to say, George 3rd was a figurehead with very little constitutional power.

However, please feel free to disagree!

[Devsdoc]

I am uncertain about this - per se the restoration was sorted when a mix of Parliamentarians (including Sir William Waller) and the Royalists got Charles 2nd back on the throne, with more limited powers, and Charles had 'had his revenge' on the surviving regicides.
The role of monarchy was really sorted when the Dutch William, and Mary were brought in, with the mandate of a constitutional monarch, the later Hanoverians having the same mandate.
Suffice it to say, George 3rd was a figurehead with very little constitutional power.

However, please feel free to disagree!

No Richard,
You are right. After the death of Cromwell, We tried his son, Dick! (Richard). this was a bad idea as he was a "Dick-head". It was General Monk who went to Holland to get Charles ll
and bring him back. He had little money and had to play nice with protestant Parliament, who held the purse-strings. On his death his brother James ll came too be king. He was a openly catholic. he tried to stop the protestant power base by only letting catholic's hold high jobs in law, army etc. This was not liked in most of Britain. It was the Duke of Monmouth, Charles ll son (wrong side of the blanket) who tried to stop frist. This did not work, at the battle of Sedgemoor 5th July 1685 James ll won. Using Judge Jeffreys, James clean out the up-starts.
After this James stopped protestants holding powerful jobs, thinking all was well. It was not! a group of protestants asked Mary (James protestant daughter) who had married William Prince of Orange. In 1688 William landed in the U.K. with a Dutch army. It was so strong and many English Protestant soldiers joined this army as it marched to London. James seeing that he had mis-read the peoples love of catholicism. He ran for it! William & Mary and Parliament made a deal. We had a monarchy ruled by parliament. As it has been until now.
Hope this helps
Be safe
Rory

[Kentop]

I'm glad that's settled!

[Devsdoc]

I'm glad that's settled!

I'm glad too! I'm happy to help with your history lesson. It is always good to look things up before posting. I have been away a lot over the last day or two and not seen your reply until now.
Be safe
Rory

[7eat51]

I have been looking at some GMT wargames on the War of the Roses time period. When I look at the dates, I am reminded how young the U.S. is in comparison.

[Herkybird]

I have been looking at some GMT wargames on the War of the Roses time period. When I look at the dates, I am reminded how young the U.S. is in comparison.

Hi again, the US is indeed comparitively young as a country in comparison to Europe, but the people of the US share European history, as well as the history of all the people who went to live in America. You are not alone. We have a long and shared Heritage.

Sorry for Philosophy 1.01!

[David Manley]

I hosted a team of NATO experts in Rosyth some years ago and we had a night out in the picturesque village of Culross. The US contingent were quite delighted to find a number of houses which were, in their words, "older than our country" - the evening then heightened in bizarroness when we had a formal marching in and addrssing of the haggis with the staff in full highland rig. A few of the "chums" had a fit when the haggis was stabbed with eager bloodlust!

[7eat51]

That would have been a site to see, David. Culross, another place to add to the growing list of sites.

Richard, every 4th of July, we watch a musical entitled 1776. There is a speech in which one congressman outlines many things for which Americans are indebted to England. Growing up where I did, most of my friends were immigrants or children of immigrants; we had a rich understanding and appreciation for our home countries. One thing that seemed different back then, however, was a stronger identity with the U.S. than I see today - by identity I mean the desire to be considered Americans. It is kind of hard to describe because it crosses over into the "it feels like" or zeitgeist realm.

[csadn]

I have been looking at some GMT wargames on the War of the Roses time period. When I look at the dates, I am reminded how young the U.S. is in comparison.

"In America, 100 years is 'a long time'; in Europe, 100 miles is 'a long distance'."

[Bligh]

I have been looking at some GMT wargames on the War of the Roses time period. When I look at the dates, I am reminded how young the U.S. is in comparison.

Ah yes Eric.
Our Second Civil War, if you only count the big ones.
I have several books on the period, some of which I'm sure could now be spared if you want them, since we don't re-enact that period anymore.
A blind Archer is not much use to anyone.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

I have been looking at some GMT wargames on the War of the Roses time period. When I look at the dates, I am reminded how young the U.S. is in comparison.

You can't go wrong with the classic AH game "Kingmaker"! If I am not mistaken there was also an old DOS based computer game based on that board game. I have painted several miniature armies for the WoTR. While there is a GMT game I have had my eye on as well (strategic level and the name escapes me), I would recommend looking at a board/miniatures game by a group called "The Perfect Captain". The campaign rules, "A Crown of Paper" are played as a boardgame interfacing with the tactical miniatures rules, "A Coat of Steel".

The best part is that the rules are free except for your printer ink! However you wouldn't know they are free by looking at the graphics which are excellent. Here is a link:

http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/acop.html

As an aside they also have a Spanish Armada naval game which is part of a series of games called "Spanish Fury".

[Union Jack]

Alas for poor Hereward the Wake, if only he had won would history have been written differently.

A person once said, I forget who, "A king is not born a king but rather by what he does".