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Thread: The progress of wargaming in recent times

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    Default The progress of wargaming in recent times

    I was chatting with my old gaming buddies on Friday night about wargames their systems, faults and solutions.
    They are all three firmly entrenched in the endless cycle of GW addiction, and for all the two leviathan systems failings they still enjoy WFB and torture themselves with 40k (Which they enjoy far less).
    I have noticed a trend in wargames and board games of late in which most companies are moving away from the old "I go, you go" method, and embracing different ways of mixing up the player order per turn.
    Now i know its not a new concept (my first non igougo game was space marine back in 89), but im finding i really like this trend and its showing the age and flaws of other less progressive systems. SoG's turn method is simple and allows both players to enjoy consistant play time, it also allows you to get your shots in return rather than leaving you to wait and "pucker up" as it were.
    I managed to quit my GW plastic crack addiction last year and i dont miss it, each to their own as it were.
    My own experiences of games of 40k for example had become a tedious excercise in waiting for my opponent to finish their turn.
    These turns could last upto twenty minutes each and involve rolling buckets of dice, the result of which gave me my only contribution to the turn, removing my models from the table.

    This is not an anti GW thread by any means, and those who like 40k are welcome to it.

    My question would be, have you had similar experiences?
    Are there systems you find play better than others?
    Has igougo reached the end of its life as a means of portraying wargames in an entertaining way?

    Fire away my shipmates!

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    Most of my own rules use IGOUGO - though I always add a limited ammount of reactive fire where appropriate, and keep the 'non phasing' player interested by opposed rolling (EG: One player throws to hit, and his opponent throws a dice to account for range - and possibly one for the effect of a shield or armour.)
    I have recently started introducing an alternating Imove-Youmove where both sides shoot at the same time, but move alternately.

    Having tried several 'Card driven' systems, I have found them frustrating very often.
    I, too think SofG and WofG do very well in simultaneous movement, as does 'Beneath the Lily Banners' for the WSS.

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    In a nutshell it is simultaneous play for me.
    I tend to play all my wargames like this now.
    We plan a phase, resolve fire together, then look at any effects and apply them at the same time. All done by discussion with very little referral to charts other than in calculating fire power. But then I always was a heretic.
    Rob.

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    I suppose i should put some examples of games that dont igougo.

    Warlords Bolt action, draws random dice to determine unit sequence during a turn. I like the look of this but my friends have no interest in historicals of any era.
    Prodos' Alien versus predator, lets the winner of a dice roll pick a unit to use then each subsequent player picks until all units are used. Yet again i like this as everone has things to do all turn.
    Ares WoG 1 and 2 and SoG, we all know these and i REALLY like this method.
    There are more obviously.

    Being a parent and bread winner ive found i like games that can be played in 3 hours or less and where ive always got stuff to do.
    I find games where i stand around waiting unrewarding and often frustrating if the other player has a great turn and my forces are decimated before i get to use them.
    These two last reasons can make me feel ive wasted a couple of hours of my precious time with little to contribute myself.
    In simultanious systems yes i can get pasted in a turn by good dice or draws, but at least i got to use my models before defeat.

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    I believe the Conflict of Heroes line is considered simultaneous movement. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...eel-kursk-1943

    I don't own any of the board games although I do have the Matrix PC game. I think Eric likes these games and is probably STILL waiting on a solitaire version of one title?
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    Ha, Jim. You're spot on.

    Conflict of Heroes was an interesting experience for me - the first wargame purchase and exposure in 25+ years - that is hex-and-chit. I was amazed at the revolution in game design - remember, my last purchase was early '80s. It is fairly simultaneous, not completely, but as close as it comes, with an interesting movement/action control mechanism - very good use of leadership.

    As soon as the solo game arrives at CSI, my order will be submitted.

    Unless playing solo, which almost all of my hex-and-chit plays are, I rather not play IGOUGO anymore. As for card driven, what a change of mindset that required. As others have pointed out, I think of it as the inability to play as if one has God's viewpoint, that stuff happens once the enemy is met, etc.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

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    Let me chime in....

    Gaming since I was 13 (52 now), and went thru my GW phase, along with WarMachine/Hordes, Xwing, playing Malifaux now with the group, did Monsterpocalypse till the company killed it thru gross stupidity, started out years ago with Star Frontiers, Starfleet Battles, Squad Leader, etc etc etc....

    IGOUGO isnt dead, for the simple reason its the easiest system for game designers (especially lazy ones) to implement, its also the easiest for new gamers to grasp. Some systems use the "all move, all shoot" and others the stricter "I move I shoot, you move you shoot", but eiither way its a simple system

    Systems that split it up (based on skill levels let's say) can be more "realistic" but they are more complicated for the new player to grasp, and the concept of simultaneous action confuses some. (yes I'm dead but my shots still count)

    Simply changing how initiative is determined can make the difference. Malifaux for example (which uses a deck of cards instead of dice), you flip each turn for initiative.

    Some work better...some work less, but as far as IGOUGO being dead? Not hardly :)
    Last edited by GrimmJack; 06-29-2015 at 11:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimmJack View Post
    Let me chime in....
    IGOUGO isnt dead, for the simple reason its the easiest system for game designers (especially lazy ones) to implement, its also the easiest for new gamers to grasp. Some systems use the "all move, all shoot" and others the stricter "I move I shoot, you move you shoot", but eiither way its a simple system

    Systems that split it up (based on skill levels let's say) can be more "realistic" but they are more complicated for the new player to grasp, and the concept of simultaneous action confuses some. (yes I'm dead but my shots still count)
    Its interesting that you say non igougo is more complicated. The rules to each of the games i mentioned earlier are far smaller and simpler than say 40k or WFB. Im not saying that all igougo is more complicated, but the core rule books of the current big guns (warmahordes, 40k, WFB) are much bigger and more complicated than say SoG.

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    In addition to what I stated above, I am finding cooperative games and solo-written games extremely enjoyable; these have been great mechanism evolutions.

    In the past few months, I was able to secure some older solo games - Ambush and B-17. I still need some of the Ambush expansions, and yesterday, I was caught by surprise when I received B-29 from a BGG trade a half-year ago. GMT has several solo games to be released soon - what a great company.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

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    I must admit that solo games have more appeal to me these days. Family life and work mean a lack of time to play some games, add to this travelling to find a player, and i just dont get the time. I actually didnt mind WFB and its rather antiquated rules, the problem there was the hour to set up and the hour to pack away on top of the 3+ hours to play.

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    ok...less intuitive? :) and I said for new gamers

    everyone understands IGOUGO if they ever played checkers ;)

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    Fair enough
    The last few editions of 40k have had rule books you could club a whale to death with. My friend was trying to tempt me back by showing me some models and rules, one model had FIFTEEN special rules! Almost each rule was on a different page in the rulebook, to me thats just overly complicated to say the least.


    As a further part of the thread, i find games such as SoG and WoG have really great community forums (here being a good example).
    It seems far easier in LGS's and on forums to discuss most games, rather than the toxic mess that seems to pervade the "bigger" games forums.
    Im glad the games i have chosen have allowed me to chat with the wonderful people on these smaller games forums.
    Last edited by Popsical; 06-28-2015 at 10:53.

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    the 3 book set of rules, one of which was entirely fluff finally broke my addiction

    for my wife and I to get back into playable condition for 40K? would cost us roughly $800+

    I think not

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    Your right there Melvin, and $400 would get you a starter as you say. My friends are spending thousands each year.
    To be honest they have committed so much to 40k and WFB they cant back down now. Thats an addiction that i dont want

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    GW became top of the food chain and they knew how to exploit it. Massive games and overpriced product. We got away from GW in favor of smaller , skirmish level games like Malifaux and now SoG. I like the fact that I dont need 500 models to play 1 game.

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    One way I've seen IGOUGO moderated is in roleplaying games where a group of players roll for initiative in combat so that every combat sequence is different. You could wind up dead before even getting a chance to attack if you roll poorly enough. The original tin soldier napoleonic games were not unlike Warhammer. You could spend a fortune on miniatures just to reenact Waterloo, which had 118,000 men involved. In my very early youth in England, the old man living on the farm adjacent to ours was a "miniaturist" as he called himself and his parlor had a huge table set up with hundreds of individual soldiers. He used HG Wells rules. He would actually make his own figures. So, large extravagant war-games using hundreds of miniatures have been with us from the very beginning and is never going away.

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    Let me throw this out there. How would true "Fog of War" affect either IGOUGO or simultaneous movement games? Is there anyone out there that has board games that incorporate fog of war? We've talked about it here with SoG and one of the better solo scenarios uses it as a basis for combat. One reason computer war games can be so appealing is their ability to recreate fog of war.
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    Games such as Space hulk, Space crusade and the soon to be released AvP by prodos use a blip system which hides the units or even falsifies the position of units and their strength, this could be termed fog of war. The first two i owned as a lad, and they were fantastic games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    Games such as Space hulk, Space crusade and the soon to be released AvP by prodos use a blip system which hides the units or even falsifies the position of units and their strength, this could be termed fog of war. The first two i owned as a lad, and they were fantastic games.
    Did you ever play "Platoon" from Avalon Hill? A tie -in with teh movie, it is actually a very good skirmish board game withplenty of "fog" :)

    I think I played my first game with "blips" representing unknown (or non-existent) units - in this case ships - at the schoool wargames club in the 1970s

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    I wish i had David! I always liked the film too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    My question would be, have you had similar experiences?
    Are there systems you find play better than others?
    Has igougo reached the end of its life as a means of portraying wargames in an entertaining way?
    The main problem with "I go, you go" is what I've heard called the "Chesterfield Syndrome", where one player has to move all his units into the open to fire, and then gets taken apart by the opponent who is still safely ensconced behind cover. (The phenomenon is so named because "the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous".... >:) ) This leads to "PanzerBush" gaming, where units have to bob from cover to cover until within range, making every game play like an action-movie shootout scene.

    Honestly: The best gaming system out there is _BattleTech_, and I can prove this with one statement of fact: If one were to take a _BT_ player from 1985, teleport him forward in time to 2015, and place him at a _BT_ table, he would *NOT* have to relearn the rules (aside from one very minor detail re how gunnery mods are figured), as they have not substantially changed since the game was first published. Show me the games which have been in continuous publication for that long without major rules changes.... And _BT_ *does not* use "I go, you go"; all sides move first, with initiative-loser having to choose first, then all sides fire (and all fire is considered simultaneous, so initiative-loser isn't *too* screwed-over).

    The main reason "I go, you go" was used is because it dates from Time Immemorial, coupled to how most battle descriptions involved one side charging while the other hunkers down and waits (one wonders which came first...). Gamers being almost as bad a Military Types concerning Hidebound Traditionalism, it's no wonder it survives even in circumstances where, to be frank, it doesn't belong any more than an elevator belongs in an outhouse.

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    For Fog of war I seem to remember the old SPI games, Drive on Stalingrad and Panzergruppe Guderian, the Russian player units were deployed with unknown strength displayed and the counter strength was revealed, turned over, when the unit got into action.
    The system I always liked was the igougo but defensive fire went before offensive fie and Melee, similar to the rules used in the early Marshal Enterprizes La Bataille series.
    I tried the written order type games but found this difficult to moderate as there were always people who wrote vague instructions that could be interpreted how the ante after movement of units, one system I did enjoy was utilised at the Grimsby club, here all units had an order chit placed in font of the unit, these chits stated, if firing, form square,charge counter charge etc and worked quite well with horse and musket games.
    Talking about GW, the Games of theirs I liked were the specialist games like Warmaster, each blister gave you a whole regiment of a specific army, was a good game in my humble, as well as BFG.
    But to end I do prefer the card movement and sequence of SoG and WoG. Where the system fails a little for me is with the command and colours type game where you could go a number of turns without being able to either attack or counter an attack if you were unlucky with your order cards. The new The Great War game in this series offsets this a little by gave tactical cards as well as order cards, an excellent system for WW1, I really like this game, worth a look

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    Hi All,
    So rules do try and get away from U.G.I.G. Thing, "Trafalgar" use wind gauge for all movement and firing. Davids "Form line of battle" & "Kiss me Hardy" both use cards to split up the Y.G.I.G. Rolling for initiative can also help. I once played a Napoleonic land game in which the divisional commanders got action points to work out who went frist until all had played.
    This went from one to the next Sometimes going side to side, one end to the other. Most rules use Y.G.I.G. we play what we get.
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Yet, for some reason, IGYG works for chess, Go, Shogi, Xiangqi, - maybe it's the abstraction.

    I started playing the 1-player game Zulus on the Ramparts late last night. It has some interesting mechanics. I want to watch the film, now; it has been decades since I last saw it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    Having tried several 'Card driven' systems, I have found them frustrating very often.
    I, too think SofG and WofG do very well in simultaneous movement, as does 'Beneath the Lily Banners' for the WSS.
    Have you ever tried Gå På?

    I was involved in test playing and balancing the first edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Yet, for some reason, IGYG works for chess, Go, Shogi, Xiangqi, - maybe it's the abstraction.

    I started playing the 1-player game Zulus on the Ramparts late last night. It has some interesting mechanics. I want to watch the film, now; it has been decades since I last saw it.
    Chess is a lesser igyg than say 40k , imagine chess where white gets to move all his pieces before black gets to move all his.
    I may just try that for fun.

    I recommend Saul David's book on the Zulu war, its very interesting. This time Napoleon was on our side!!

  27. #27

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    My first simultaneous movement game was "Starfleet Battles". I purchased the pocket games back in 1980. Unfortunately, they turned a pocked game into wargaming tax code.

    I love the term Panzerbushing, there were definitely some weird things you could game in Panzer Blitz, that they kind of fixed in Panzer Leader. I don't so much mind IGOUGO, but in most games fire at least should be simultaneous (this rewards good tactics even while you may be penalized by bad dice).

    I am a big fan of Bolt Action, since you move or move and fire, or ambush during an activation.

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    Bob, I realize this could be considered blasphemy by some, but I never got into the Panzer Blitz series. I tried PB, PL, and Arab-Israeli War, but they never grabbed me. I don't know about now, but back then, Tobruk was my armor standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    Chess is a lesser igyg than say 40k , imagine chess where white gets to move all his pieces before black gets to move all his.
    I may just try that for fun.

    I recommend Saul David's book on the Zulu war, its very interesting. This time Napoleon was on our side!!
    I didn't think of it until reading your post, but Chess is more like Conflict of Heroes than Third Reich in the IGYG sense. Your alternative would definitely be interesting to play, especially on a larger board. Hmmm.

    I have David's book in my cart. I see a novel series as well. Thanks for the recommendation.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  29. #29

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    Eric,

    I owned Tobruk and never got around to playing it. I played all three in the PB series. Not blasphemy, everyone has their preferences.

    Bob

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    What I enjoyed about Tobruk was the flow of logic - range based on gun, aspect to target, damage. At the time, it appealed to me. Instead of capturing everything into abstracted attack/defense numbers, I remember feeling the differences between the tanks. I think GMT's Panzer series does the same.

    Today, I can enjoy a wider variety of mechanics, so I would be interested in trying PL again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    The main problem with "I go, you go" is what I've heard called the "Chesterfield Syndrome", where one player has to move all his units into the open to fire, and then gets taken apart by the opponent who is still safely ensconced behind cover. (The phenomenon is so named because "the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous".... >:) ) This leads to "PanzerBush" gaming, where units have to bob from cover to cover until within range, making every game play like an action-movie shootout scene.

    Honestly: The best gaming system out there is _BattleTech_, and I can prove this with one statement of fact: If one were to take a _BT_ player from 1985, teleport him forward in time to 2015, and place him at a _BT_ table, he would *NOT* have to relearn the rules (aside from one very minor detail re how gunnery mods are figured), as they have not substantially changed since the game was first published. Show me the games which have been in continuous publication for that long without major rules changes.... And _BT_ *does not* use "I go, you go"; all sides move first, with initiative-loser having to choose first, then all sides fire (and all fire is considered simultaneous, so initiative-loser isn't *too* screwed-over).

    The main reason "I go, you go" was used is because it dates from Time Immemorial, coupled to how most battle descriptions involved one side charging while the other hunkers down and waits (one wonders which came first...). Gamers being almost as bad a Military Types concerning Hidebound Traditionalism, it's no wonder it survives even in circumstances where, to be frank, it doesn't belong any more than an elevator belongs in an outhouse.
    I love the elevator in an outhouse comment
    Battle tech was a good game and plain hilarious in my group when we were early teens. We would all design a mech with the most PPC's possible,then we would all without fail have to peg it to the nearest pond or lake and stand in it to help dissipate the over heat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    I love the elevator in an outhouse comment
    Battle tech was a good game and plain hilarious in my group when we were early teens. We would all design a mech with the most PPC's possible,then we would all without fail have to peg it to the nearest pond or lake and stand in it to help dissipate the over heat.
    LOL. Now that sounds familiar. I recall taking BT to the extreme, creating our own satirical "House". We were "House Luau". We even made up patches that replaced the katana in the armored fist with a palm tree. Cornered Jordan Weisman and Mike Stackpole with the House Luau concept at one Gen Con in the 80s. We had a blast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Bob, I realize this could be considered blasphemy by some, but I never got into the Panzer Blitz series. I tried PB, PL, and Arab-Israeli War, but they never grabbed me. I don't know about now, but back then, Tobruk was my armor standard.



    I didn't think of it until reading your post, but Chess is more like Conflict of Heroes than Third Reich in the IGYG sense. Your alternative would definitely be interesting to play, especially on a larger board. Hmmm.

    I have David's book in my cart. I see a novel series as well. Thanks for the recommendation.
    I loved panzer blitz but I hated the brutal combat results table. In IGOUGO mode, whoever fired first usually won. Even a poor roll on the dice could disable the target and the units couldn't fire their next turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentop View Post
    In IGOUGO mode, whoever fired first usually won. Even a poor roll on the dice could disable the target and the units couldn't fire their next turn.
    That's one of the reasons I like WoG and SoG; unless there is a good reason for timed shooting, e.g. if initiative actually means shooting prior to the other side, I like simultaneous firing effects. I think, though, for such timed shooting to make sense, the time per round has to be very short. Basically, I think this would only make sense in tactically oriented games with small scales. It no longer makes sense to me, in terms of accurateness or feel, to have one side move and shoot prior to the other side without compelling reasons. That being said, I am a long way away from parting with some of my AH games.

    Here's an interesting read from the designer of the Band of Brothers series of WWII tactical wargames. I read this recently as I contemplated backing the KS for the new expansion.

    http://sailsofglory.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=176
    Last edited by 7eat51; 06-29-2015 at 16:35.
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    Sadly the link seems to have expired Eric.
    Like you i cannot see the benefit in wargames of igoygo.

    Did anyone else play AH's Russian Front? I loved that game sooooo much
    Last edited by Popsical; 06-29-2015 at 12:25.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Bob, I realize this could be considered blasphemy by some, but I never got into the Panzer Blitz series. I tried PB, PL, and Arab-Israeli War, but they never grabbed me.
    Me neither. Did anyone ever try the West End Games "Tank Leader" series? I thought they were good fun.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    I am a big fan of Bolt Action, since you move or move and fire, or ambush during an activation.
    IOur gaming group has used the BA system for Sci Fi, Vietnam, WW1, Pony Wars, western gunfights and ancients so far - the one thing the guys really don't like using it for is WW2 as its "too bland" (which is why its easy to translate to other eras and scales)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    I love the elevator in an outhouse comment
    Battle tech was a good game and plain hilarious in my group when we were early teens. We would all design a mech with the most PPC's possible,then we would all without fail have to peg it to the nearest pond or lake and stand in it to help dissipate the over heat.
    I remember making a mech with three PPCs. It could fire 3-3-2 series without overheating... Apparently I was more cautions...

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    I think IGOUGO is ok - but not for all games. It does allow players to plan their next move, and pay attention to what the enemy is doing and does avoid conflict of movement arguments.
    I dont think it should be poo-pooed just because it has been around a long time. If a better and more fun simultaneous/reactive system exists for a period, then change to it! Simples!

    If you and your opponents like a system, then play it, but I think its a bad idea to change a game you enjoy for reasons of fashion
    Last edited by Herkybird; 06-29-2015 at 14:18. Reason: Edit

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    I uploaded a .pdf of the file spoken about above, and replaced the link to the file upload.

    David, I never tried Tank Leader, but I just looked at both games on BGG. Are you familiar with a new game called Tiger Leader by DVG? I have looked at but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I am not sure I will, but I am intrigued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    I dont think it should be poo-pooed just because it has been around a long time.
    If we did, imagine what we would say given the mean age of our active members here.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I remember making a mech with three PPCs. It could fire 3-3-2 series without overheating... Apparently I was more cautions...
    Did it look like this: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Awesome ? :)

    For my part: My group wasn't a "House" per se -- it was more a Criminal Organization Gone Legit. The group would find stuff, fix it, and sell it on -- be it battlefield salvage, or old housewares, or what-have-you. It owned businesses in all the states, and often more than one in the same industry so the gov't couldn't take it out easily. The long-term goal was "do not let the packs of inbred idiots running things get the human race wiped out". (ComStar as written after about 1989 was a serious nuisance -- "saving humanity from itself is *our* job, damn it!")

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    I dont think it should be poo-pooed just because it has been around a long time.
    If we did, imagine what we would say given the mean age of our active members here.
    Given the age of some of the members here, being able to poo-poo anything at all should be accounted a Minor Miracle.... >;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    IOur gaming group has used the BA system for Sci Fi, Vietnam, WW1, Pony Wars, western gunfights and ancients so far - the one thing the guys really don't like using it for is WW2 as its "too bland" (which is why its easy to translate to other eras and scales)
    David,

    There is a local group here that uses Bolt Action for both WWI and Vietnam, I have not tried using it for either. I was trying to adapt it to Heinlien's Starship Troopers, versus Verhoven's. So troops in powered armor, smaller bugs but with lasers. Keep getting side tracked with other projects.

    Bob

  43. #43

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    Interestingly, when I was in my 20's, I played almost only simulation level games. I loved the Enola games series for micro armor (both the WWII and WWIII rule sets)... Still have them both. Played a lot of Harpoon (up to the 4th addition, which is totally unplayable mumbo-jumbo IMHO), Starfleet Battles, Empire, Mustangs and Messerschmitts.

    You can't recruit people to play those games anymore. And forget getting youth to play anything that takes an attention span of greater than 30sec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    David,

    There is a local group here that uses Bolt Action for both WWI and Vietnam, I have not tried using it for either. I was trying to adapt it to Heinlien's Starship Troopers, versus Verhoven's. So troops in powered armor, smaller bugs but with lasers. Keep getting side tracked with other projects.

    Bob
    One of the big improvements we made to BA was to house rule the section/squad cohesion rules. as it stands you can't get anywhere near proper small unit tactics, by allowing players to split squads into fire teams or groups it becomes so much more satisfying (if you are familiar with what you are trying to recreate)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    ...Played a lot of Harpoon (up to the 4th addition, which is totally unplayable mumbo-jumbo IMHO)....
    the authors are good freinds of mine so I wouldn't use those terms myself but I must admit I prefer rather more simple sets for modern naval. The old Skytrex rules were our "go to" set in the school club, and in recent years I've used a modern variant of General Quarters which seems to work quite well.

  46. #46

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    I thought Harpoon was brilliant right up through the 3rd edition. In the 4th when you had to compare Missile Gen vs ATA to come up with an intercept probability, they lost me. I still haul out 3rd ED and play a game every once in a while. 4ed makes very good table coasters. I met Larry Bond at a convention many years ago. Didn't get to play with him, but he seemed like a great guy, very smart! No offense meant to the author, but you can get so technical that a game bogs down in minutia.

    On the Bolt Action side, I agree about the Fire Teams, I'm an former infantryman, so the concept makes perfect sense. I wanted to try incorporating a fire team concept, but haven't played in about 6 months. The game was really hot around here for about a year and then it cooled off and people are playing other things. Still one of my current favorites though.

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    Thanks for the read, Eric. It's been my observations on game designs that you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't, simultaneously! I like the open rules aspect of SOG for that very observation. A basic game, a standard game and a kitchen sink game while allowing for house rules in any of those versions pleases all the people all the time IMHO, and SOG does just that. It reminds me of the old Tunnels and Trolls reaction to Dungeons and Dragons. Ken St. Andre, who I had the pleasure of playing T&T at Rincon a couple of years ago, had that attitude when he first stumbled upon D&D. Dump the rules you don't like, make up or choose optional rules you do like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    On the Bolt Action side, I agree about the Fire Teams, I'm an former infantryman, so the concept makes perfect sense. I wanted to try incorporating a fire team concept, but haven't played in about 6 months. The game was really hot around here for about a year and then it cooled off and people are playing other things. Still one of my current favorites though.
    I agree wholeheartedly! - my WW2 skirmish rules work with the Fire Team as their basic element - if you want to see them go to our club downloads page

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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    And forget getting youth to play anything that takes an attention span of greater than 30sec.
    Eh -- there were enough younglings at Enfilade to balance out the silverbacks. Mainly it's a matter of "love thy neofen".

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    Games like EastFront or Combat Commander, or other games with activated ZOC (zones of control) are interesting as you are made to juggle the push/pull of enabling Headquarter blocks or Leader counters in order to activate other units in their surrounding ZOC. It's not as though units outside of a ZOC cannot act, only that they do so at the expense of being less efficient strategically in respect to the overall meta-game, whereas effective use of your ZOC can maximize results. Even in the context of IGOUGO, little things like this add an extra layer of strategy that I enjoy.

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