Feel free to post over there. I'm on a tablet atm. Looks like this year may be a tribute to Vietnam Vets. Still looking at their media news.Originally Posted by 7eat51
Feel free to post over there. I'm on a tablet atm. Looks like this year may be a tribute to Vietnam Vets. Still looking at their media news.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Will do, Jim. I am only posting here today - back to writing in a moment.
I hope there is a tribute to Vietnam Vets. I remember the support we received during the first Iraq war in '91. During a parade in Las Vegas, I saw Vietnam Vets standing in the crowd saluting us. It was hard not breaking ranks and running over to hug them and saying, "Thank you for your service." We were receiving what they should have received.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Oh my gosh. Here's the warbirds schedule. If it weren't for Gen Con being so close I'd make plans to go this year. To be able to see a WW2 B-29 Flying Fortress, the worlds only operational one! See here:
https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...dule-confirmed
The did a Vietnam Honor Flight last year for vets and they're doing it again this year. https://www.eaa.org/airventure/event...20BE99B7EADFA9
Battle of Britain is on Saturday.
Here's the full schedule; https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...dule-of-events
To answer your other question i would guess that the Warbirds is maybe 1/8th of the grounds and coverage according to last years map. Kind of hard to tell for sure, but the WW2 observations are significant Wednesday through Saturday.
Apologies for the thread hijacking.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Oh, Jim. I need to look at dates. To see the B-29s, and especially the BoB, would be awesome. I imagine hotels in the area are already booked. Time to do a little internet research.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Historically black clothes have been very expensive due to the dye being very hard until someone found out that iron in water bucket colors things black.
Gustavus Adolphus Rex Svecia's hereditary color was black but it was mistaken for green due to his clothes fading to green when on campaign.
I know some about clothes and leather and I know some about painting art historically, but I have never looked into the kind of paint that would be used for ships. I'd guess they'd use black to hide the color of tar or make good use of it.
It's history and logic like that makes me give further thought to the pictures and writings I have seen/read regarding the color of Russian ships during the Napoleonic era. (Again, don't tell Rory I said that or I'll deny it)
LOVE YOU!!!!!!!
Be safe
Rory
Y
Ok, here goes. There are two kinds of color. One is how our televisions work. Light waves that cause your eyes to see color are kept from passing through an object so that you only see the light waves (color) that are let through. The other is reflective light. Light made up of all of the wave lengths (colors) strikes an opaque object like a painting. The paint that is applied by the painter traps most light waves and reflects others. The reflected light is interpreted by the brain as a given color.
Now, what about our Russian coats? Black is a combination of all colors of paint or dyes for Russian coats and it traps all colors of light (absence of color). If a black Russian coat begins to fade some of the dye stops obsobing light waves, then the black coat will begin to show the colors that are beginning to reflect from the material of the coat. If the coat obsobes red light waves and reflects some of the blue and yellow light waves, then your eye will interpret that as a green almost black color.
Now, was the coat black or green?
Bob.
Well Rory, I don't know what to say. I'm looking at my copy of Russian Warships in the Age of Sail 1696-1860 and the ships are positively dark green and white.
Do you wear sunglasses when you look at pictures? I can see dark green looking black but, looking at two pair of my very old black western trousers, they turned a charcoal color(not green). Even though I've read that depending on the composition, dark pigments gave different results.
One would think that the answer must be known on some Russian navel site (that I can't find).
Maybe the next time I go Oktoberfesting, we can find a Swedish player to take it out on. I don't think we have any Turkish members on this site.
Once again Rory, nice butting heads.
Ed,
Were the pictures of the Russian ships drawings, paintings, or photographs? Each of these have problems with colors especially black. An artist will often use colors that aren't there to make shadows and highlights. When I have painted people for instance, I use a lot of pale blue gray, reds and light green on the skin in addition to the colors you might think of as flesh colors. The dark green may have been representing dark green or used to indicate a shine off the black hull.
If it was a photograph, then you need to look around in the picture for something reflecting off the hull creating a green shine on a black hull. Of course, it could be a dark green hull too.
Another problem is with the printing of the picture. If the four color separation was not done exactly right, then there could have been a color shift creating the dark green hull. This could easily happen with dark black objects.
I hope that the hulls are really green, it would make the Russian ships very interesting.
Bob
All of the above is very interesting and thank you for all your hard work. The official colour was and is Black & White. One can jump up and down, shout from the roof tops, say it is not so! In the end all roads lead too Black & White. Sorry if you do not like this, sorry if it does not fit with your version. History is history. Russian ships = Black & White. Why is it so hard to make you understand this. Should we start on the U.S. ships of this period being ALL Green & White!!!!!!!!!
Be safe
Rory
Green does look good though
Dave!
.
Bligh.
Color change in anything is based on composition of paint. A lot of green pigments were and to some extent still are plant based. Mineral based greens made with copper or malachite turn black over time. Plant based greens turn brown eventually. With salt present, bleaching occurs. Red is the least permanent color because of the wavelength. It's complicated. Dutch masters from the 16th century are all turning black because of the varnish they used to preserve the oil paints. Lead in the ground leaches from the canvas and can have surprising reactions. But, as a general rule, mineral based pigments like cobalt blue (which comes from the inside of blast furnaces) are the most stable. Plant or animal based pigments like a lot of yellows which come from snake piss and greens which comes from dried plants suspended in a medium are the first to fade or darken.
Good morning to you to Rory. Might I suggest one 40 MG Lisinopril tablet a day. It will help against high blood pressure/heart attacks, but not your eyesight. Just kidding.(About your blood pressure not your poor vision) And keep my green and white U.S. ships out of this.
Last edited by Gunner; 06-30-2015 at 10:26.
This discussion is almost as entertaining as the War of 1812 threads.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
I'm Glad we entertain you.My blood pressure as to my eyes are fine. I use the words Black & White. Only the 2 words! You are making things over complicated! Simple is always best. The science is very interesting. I'm pleased that we are all learning something new. But at the end of the day Black is Black, not green. I thinks "thee over egg the custard!!!!!!"
Don't tell how, show me green ships, Green ships that where painted green from the start. Paintings, Documents please. As for the rest! See above.
Be safe, from a cool, laid-back and knowingly right.
Rory
P,S. One can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink!
Why should not have a dig at your ships. You poke at mine!Good morning to you to Rory. Might I suggest one 40 MG Lisinopril tablet a day. It will help against high blood pressure/heart attacks, but not your eyesight. Just kidding.(About your blood pressure not your poor vision) And keep my green and white U.S. ships out of this.
Be safe, my friend
Rory
Unless you are the proud owner of two bricks Rory.P,S. One can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink!
Rob.
Rob,Unless you are the proud owner of two bricks Rory.
Rob.
The day you try that one. Would you call me! I would love to see you use them. I will bring my phone, to ring A & E! A service I think you will need, after the uses of the bricks on said animal.
Be safe
Rory
But you are a much better modeler and painter than I am.Why should not have a dig at your ships. You poke at mine!
Be safe, my friend
Rory
And to set the record straight, I consider Rory a good friend
Its O.k. Ed, But I would like lenses for my sunglasses! You are a good friend. You have made my live richer.But you are a much better modeler and painter than I am.
And to set the record straight, I consider Rory a good friend
Be safe
Rory of the Black & White
As opposed to the glossed over, self aggrandising "We saved the world from evil communists." version I got when I was in school.
Just glad you knew the joke, otherwise it would have fallen a bit flat, just like me after bricking the horse.
Rob.
Rod,Just glad you knew the joke, otherwise it would have fallen a bit flat, just like me after bricking the horse.
Rob.
It's works! Afterwards you would be Black and Green. I think Black frist, going Green later.
Hope you are wearing a Box!
Be safe
Rory
I laughed yesterday evening. I was at a used bookstore back home - great day spent with Sue and friends eating great food - and lo and behold, there was a copy of Russian Warships in the Age of Sail. I promptly looked at the cover, with Ed and Rory in mind, and the hull of the foremost ship was black, but the lower portion of the hull (possibly below the waterline) had a definite greenish hue.
Thanks for the comments about colors, paints, and vision above - very interesting posts.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Could that be copper oxide redux by any chance Eric?
Rob.
The cover showed a definite demarcation between black and green, and given the green location, that was my first my thought. I wish I had called Sue over for a look.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
What? You didn't purchase the book?!?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
I thought about it. At $45, and not knowing when I would read it, I chose not to pull the trigger. I didn't walk out with any military history books. Until I work through my to-read stack, I am limiting my purchases to those costing only a few bucks. Many of my books I have picked up at library sales, etc. Those, and inexpensive amazon used, I will continue to nab.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
See! I told you! yes the green below the bottom Wales is old copper plating, which has oxide over time. So if you had turned to page 28 bottom of frist column. Paul 1st, "establishing a uniform White on Black colour scheme on all Russian warships". The picture on the cover is 1851. So which period did the ships go green? At which point did they go back to to black and white? A line or two from a period source! Or paintings of the period showing a green & white painted ship (not weathered) please. I have said my last on this. Some of the herd of horses have started to drink!!!!!!
Be safe
Rory
Though I'm with you on this Rory, I would not trust official Russian sources. My experience of for example Tsar Peter's description of the Swedish forces at the Battle of Poltava included several regiments more than ever was in the Swedish King's army, and all at more or less full strength after months of marching through burned lands where the army was forced to turn south to Ukraine to feed itself. It turns out the Swedish Lutheran accounts is much less prone to boasting or right out lying than the Russian sources.
I do not. I am bedridden with Pancreatic Cancer, so I can't get out much. This forum, however, is a resource for me to spend time talking about a primary interest of mine. It's also the only truly active forum on the subject. I've also been reading "The Honourable Company" about the English East India Company which became the British Empire... I know that is probably of no interest here, but I thought I'd mention it... But it is filled with history leading up to much of what is discussed on this forum.
Christian
As a past rendezvous/buckskin re-enactor I was primarily interested in the Hudson's Bay Company. No comparison to the East India Company, but an interesting history none the less. Supposedly at one time it was the largest landowner in the world. I've still got my HBC pin somewhere?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Glad to hear that the Anchorage is helping you along Christian.
You will now be in our prayers.
On the subject of the HEIC. there is some converse in a thread on here.
I have also asked after a novel which I read many years ago about an HEIC captain rather along the lines of Ramage, but can't for the life of me remember what it was called. So yes there is indeed interest in it.
Rob.
Hi Christian,
Do you model/play with ships or is your interest in the history only! If you are modeling/playing, can you still do so? I'm glad you have an out-let with this site. This is one thing this Luddite likes about I.T. It opens up ways to talk to people. You maybe stuck in your room, but you are not on your own. I as many do wish you well.
Be safe
Rory
I am probably the only Marxist on this forum. But, one of his most salient points was, "The events of the Seven-Years-War transformed the East India Company from a commercial into a military and territorial power[3]. It was then that the foundation was laid of the present (June, 1853) British Empire in the East. Then East India stock rose to £263, and dividends were then paid at the rate of 12 1/2 per cent. But then there appeared a new enemy to the Company, no longer in the shape of rival societies, but in the shape of rival ministers and of a rival people. It was alleged that the Company’s territory had been conquered by the aid of British fleets and’, British armies, and that no British subjects could hold territorial sovereignties independent of the Crown. The ministers of the day and the people of the day claimed their share in the “wonderful treasures” imagined to have been won by the last conquests. The Company only saved its existence by an agreement made in 1767 that it should annually pay £400,000 into the National Exchequer." Yes, Marx is very dense to read, but he was a first hand witness to the machinations of East India Company.
So, If you are interested, I would love to hear your what you have to say on the subject.
Jonas,
I understand you. For once 2nd source can be better than original. It's a bit like the reading original reports about the 1812 Wars. You make your wins bigger and if you lose, the enemy bigger and stronger.
Be safe
Rory
Devsdoc, I would so dearly love to play and model the ships etc... but as my time is limited, and I have a book I desperately want to finish writing, I hope you all don't mind my being here for inspiration... Thank you so much for your prayers. You have no idea how much it means to me.
I so very much admire the work you guys put into accuracy in your painting of your models. It's why I started this thread:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...by-Nationality
Nightmoss
I have a kindle copy of The Honourable Company if you are ever interested. It is probably the best I've read on the subject of the East India Company.
Bligh,
I don't understand what HIEC is... might you be talking about A Captain From Conneticut by CS Forester?
As a minor aside regarding the HEIC I used to live in Croydon, south of London and very close to the site of the HEIC's Addiscombe Seminary which was the training establishment for the company's officer corps :)
HEIC is the East India Company?
colour me confused :)
Thanks for the heads up on the book, Christian. I will look for it locally. We have so many used books stores in the area I'm sure I will be able to find a copy. Otherwise a used one via Amazon works just as well. Actually, I just requested a copy via the local branch of our public library. I'll be able to borrow it tomorrow. Thanks again.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Sorry! Just a typo should of course read HEIC. Honourable East India Company.
Rob.
Last edited by Bligh; 07-09-2015 at 13:38.
Precisely, and if you are a tsar in the process of modernizing Russia you have to convince the people of your greatness. That's been true for about all tsars since then, at least.
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