Rebuilding ships size-wize, 74 to 80 or 64?

[TexaS]

I've stumbled over a rebuilt Téméraire-class to make a Tonnant-class in the albums:
http://sailsofglory.org/album.php?al...chmentid=10937

The small glimpses of wave 3 that's been mentioned here have told of a lack of Tonnant-class. I would like to cut a temeraire at the main mast and add a guns width there, but that seams impossibly complicated. Does anyone have any suggestions for a rebuild?

I'm also on the hunt for a British 64 like Agamemnon. I'm thinking of taking an Elizabeth-class and just cutting off a gun port in the stern and removing a few guns on the deck. It would make it a few (3?) mm shorter. Would it be terribly incorrect? Would anyone actually notice the difference? Would it be worth the trouble?

[Redcoat]

Sounds as a surgery!
For me it would be quite complex do that. One thing is to add details to the ship and another is to reshape the boat .... very hard for me but I encourage you to this challenge!

[Nightmoss]

As Julian has noted it's much easier to add detail than it is to do remove it and then redo it. Unless you're planning on gaming with grognards, rivet counters or colour police I would rely on the two foot rule for your ships appearance and focus more on the statistics for actual gameplay?

[TexaS]

My thought is to make the ships a little easier to distinguish on the sea.
When plotting your move you would have a little easier time noticing if an enemy ship is a 64 or an 80. It's hard to see the names of the ships on the table when playing, especially if a larger table.

But that reminds me that there's a difference where the fire arcs are located on the ship card depending on how big the ship is. Perhaps I should move the fore and aft arcs a little further from the center on the 80 gun ships. I'll make my own cards with different names anyway. For a game on a convention it's hard enough to get the player to remember the historical name of the ship. I don't want to add a name of the model to that, not to mention that I have four Commerce de Bordeaux and plan on getting more.

[TexaS]

My thought at cutting down to a 64:

[Diamondback]

It's a shortcut, and likely not as representational as the standard you seek, but for now I'd be comfortable using a 74 as either a 64 or 80 As Is.

Romero Landa's three 64's were basically 49/52-scale models of his Ildefonso 74s, and the St. Albans and Worcester British 64's are similarly-scaled versions of the Bellona 74s. (Similarly, Bellona is also a downscale of the 1744 French L'Invincible, which was faithfully reproduced with no scaling change as two pairs of Large 74s in the 1750's and 1790s, and the basic hull was up-scaled with an extra gun-deck spliced in for HMS Victory.)

[fredmiracle]

My thought at cutting down to a 64:

If you build it, I will watch

[John Paul]

Jonas,

I wouldn't poop on your planned modifications. I would only point out that the location of the masts would also change based on the size of the actual hull. So if you shorten the hull the masts on the model may be noticeably off, especially if it's the "look" you're going for in your efforts.

[TexaS]

I know it won't be correct, but perhaps a little better than unmodified.

Good point about the masts. Moving them will also make the difference stand out more.

Edit: And once again, thank you for your expertise, Diamondback! You are of cause right, but I will probably try to make some visual difference anyway. But the modification I will need most of, in numbers, is the 80 which I still have no idea of how to make it work.

[John Paul]

Your ideas, skill, and talent are to be admired for sure! I'm still working my way through getting some of the simple rigging done to improve the looks of my ships. An exercise that is starting to make me wish I was only about 8 mm tall, especially when the other day I snapped a mast!! I can't begin to say some of the things I called myself!!!

[TexaS]

Thank you for your kind words.

I find that the old trick of stiffening the thread's end with crazy glue and using tweezers have save me, when rigging a ship.

[TexaS]

Having filed down the bow a millimeter or two...

[TexaS]

First cut.

[TexaS]

The stern falling to pieces instead of coming off in one piece.

[TexaS]

Next pieces off...



The rudder still attached to the deck.

[TexaS]

Rudder cut off and sides glued to the parts just inside.



Then glue the rudder between the two and the stern on it and its ready to be cut to fit to the ship...

[TexaS]

The Egg and bacon is noticeably shorter than Zealous above her, but not very much.



It will be a while before I can finish her. Working Saturday and going away for the little that's left of the week end. I'm guessing Tuesday I'll have time to continue.

[Diamondback]

Edit: And once again, thank you for your expertise, Diamondback! You are of cause right, but I will probably try to make some visual difference anyway. But the modification I will need most of, in numbers, is the 80 which I still have no idea of how to make it work.

Quite welcome, amigo, not trying to be a snob or talk you out of doing your build your way. Advice, you might check out the Draughts Collection scans on the British National Maritime Museum website for plans--when I'm trying to round up comparative draughts for Ares on stretching sculpts as "stand ins" they're my first stop. :)

[TexaS]

One more comparison.

I've added a little paint in some places. I will add milliput to fill up some holes and such before truly painting her.

[TexaS]

I've been looking at them. If you compare the plans with the model you'll see that the aft most gunport are placed according to the plans. The mizzen mast came a little too far forward, but it was practical reasons for that...

The foremast and mizzenmast arn't glued in place yet. I'll paint all her masts first, so their angles are a little off.

[John Paul]

Thank you for your kind words.

I find that the old trick of stiffening the thread's end with crazy glue and using tweezers have save me, when rigging a ship.

I have an old set of needles that I used many years ago when I built models of sailing ships like Constitution and others. I found them in a shop that specialized in model sailing ships, and they have come in very handy at various times. I'm not sure if they can still be had, but they are a great help in running thread in tight spaces, and tying knots. There are several types of straight and curved needles in the set, which totals about 15 different needles all together!

[John Paul]

Jonas,

You must have the patience of a near saint being able to make those cuts!! I would probably cut off a figure tip or two! Keep up the fine work it is an inspiration!!

[TexaS]

I have too little patience. I always end up melting plastic to the mill I use. Not when I starts the hole, but when I cut a little deeper.

[7eat51]

Jonas, I admire your willingness and stick-to-it-ness to do such work. I have been watching Sue paint and rig her first ship this week - a Langton Constitution. I originally bought it for me to give a try, but quickly passed it off to her.

[TexaS]

A little more done...
I've cut away the guns on the forecastle and poop. I've shortened it both bow and stern. With the differently painted stern I think she can be recognised. There's some things left to do, but I think that I now know that it will be hard to see any difference a yard away.


Eggs and bacon compared to Billy ruffian

[John Paul]

The change to the hull length and detail are noticeable in the photos, so your work does give the effect you sought!

[TexaS]

Now it's just rigging and ratlines left until finished.

[csadn]

Call me a heathen (everyone else does), but: Wouldn't it be far simpler to file off a couple extraneous gun ports?

[TexaS]

This might have been more work than it was worth. It's not that big a difference, but now I have it...

[Mycenius]

Indeed!

[TexaS]

By the way John, that last comparison picture is of Bellona/Goliath and the ship in the starter set, Defence/Vanguard. I have only painted the sails/masts and not the ships sides on any of them, except touch ups on Agamemnon, but made to match the original color.

You were asking about the miniature's colors in another thread.

[Mycenius]

By the way John, that last comparison picture is of Bellona/Goliath and the ship in the starter set, Defence/Vanguard. I have only painted the sails/masts and not the ships sides on any of them, except touch ups on Agamemnon, but made to match the original color.

You were asking about the miniature's colors in another thread.

Cool - Thanks Jonas.

[Iron Outlaw]

Nice work Jonas!

I wonder if, as an alternative way of conversion would be easier, and as effective, to remove the Mainmast and Ships Boats, take out one set of Guns with a cut through Midships and then reposition the Mast and the Ships Boats.

However if you want to build a Tonnant, I have suggested elsewhere to get 2 Temeraire's and cut them both in unequal halves, so that the new 2 halves would give you that extra Gun Port length! Would the 2 remaining halves represent a real ship? Doubt it, so you can have either 2 x sinking Ships, one going down by the Stern, the other by the Bow, or, have one disabled Ship with the gap between the 2 shorter halves hidden by a Mainsail and shattered Mainmast draped across her Midships like the ones Rod Langton makes.

Cheers

[TexaS]

I'll probably try building a Tonnant like that. I'm thinking though that perhaps one can cut off a slice of extra gun out of the pieces left for yet another Tonnant. Two from three ships would be a good pay-off. That would also give pieces to a wreck or two and if I put the wrecks on new flat "scenery bases" I even get an extra base that I can use for a merchant from Langton, perhaps... I'd think that merchants would be less scale sensitive, perhaps...

[Mycenius]

Jonas - I think we should perhaps rename you, either dub you our own local "Mad Scientist" or something like "Dr. FrankenSAIL", or something like that!

[TexaS]

As long as I do it shipwright and not shipwrong I think any "mad scientist"-likenings would be out of the question.

[TexaS]

If the surgeon make the cut in front of the main mast it would fit quite well with the profile.

[Mycenius]

As long as I do it shipwright and not shipwrong I think any "mad scientist"-likenings would be out of the question.

[Mycenius]

If the surgeon make the cut in front of the main mast it would fit quite well with the profile.

[TexaS]

Now, I'm only waiting for my ships to arrive.
I'll get a delivery on Friday.
Not sure if I'll have the time during the weekend, but perhaps...

Then I'll finally have Tonnants too. Then I'm all set for San Domingo in May. The participants may not notice or care, but I'll know it's ship shape.

[TexaS]

Let's start...

[TexaS]

[TexaS]

[TexaS]

Put together again...

[Iron Outlaw]

Very nice! Better got on and order some!

[TexaS]

Well, that crazy Swede has built something again...

[TexaS]

Very nice! Better got on and order some!

Just watch out. I happened to order a few ships extra... About those pictured above twice. Tomorrow I'll get another 4 Commerce de Bordeaux, 2 HMS Impetueux and a Zealous. Lucky that I get well payed for having to work three Saturdays in a row. Well... I'll probably be able to set up the Battle of the Nile soon. Just a lot of painting to do.

I'm thinking of cutting off the little cabin on the poop. I want to move the mizzen a little further back. It should be according to the layover I did above, and it would look a little better I think.

[Iron Outlaw]

What would be the changes to a Temeraire Ship Card and Log for the Tonnant?

[Diamondback]

Brad, we're working on that in the Unofficial Stats Committee ATM. :) We *think* we have most of it nailed down...

[Iron Outlaw]

There's a committee???

If there is one phrase to explain why humanity has never reached its full potential it is, "Committee Meetings!"