My new Ottoman fleet flagship

[Iron Outlaw]

Just to clarify.

Starboard came from the term Steer(ing) Board which was fixed to the Starboard Quarter of the old Ships prior to Rudders.

Larboard is believed to have come from the term "Ladeboard" or Loading Port on the Left Side of the Ship. I guess it was on the Port Side as the Steering Board might get damaged if a ship came alongside to Starboard. The other Term "Port" is because that was the side of the Ship that docked.

The use of the term Larboard was officially replaced in the Royal Navy with the term Port in 1844, due to the confusion of helm orders between Starboard and Larboard.

Interestingly, IIRC, it was not long after the Titanic disaster, not necessarily because of it, when the bods in charge changed a Helm order "to Port" to mean turning the Wheel to Port. In the movie Titanic where the iceberg is off the Starboard Bow, the order given is to turn to Starboard when they want the Ship to go to Port. This is because in the old days of tillers when you wanted to go to Port you brought the Tiller over to the Starboard side of the Ship.

Another bit of Trivia; I understand that in the Imperial Japanese Navy they had copied the Royal Navy so much that Helm Orders were given in English up until about 1927, I think it was.

I am a font of useless information am I not!!!

Cheers

[Devsdoc]

Thanks Brad
Be safe
Rory

[Iron Outlaw]

I just posted the following here but when I refreshed the page, it was gone!

Anyway, to clarity; the term Larboard is believed to have come from the term Ladeboard, or Loading Dock which was on the Port side of the old ships. Ships always docked on their Port Side as coming alongside to Starboard might damage their Steer(ing) (B)oar(d).

The term Larboard was officially dropped from the Royal Navy in 1844 to avoid confusion with Starboard.

Interestingly, you may have noticed in the movie Titanic that with the iceberg off the Starboard Bow, the Helm order was Hard a'Starboard. This was because in the old days of Tillers, when a Ship needed to go to Port the Tiller was hauled over to Starboard and Ships' steering mechanisms were constructed accordingly. But long after that, IIRC, the system changed so that the Ship turned the same direction that Ship's Wheel was turned.

[Iron Outlaw]

It was on another page!!! I blame the war, Agent Orange, old age, .....!

[Gunner]

Rory, another GREEN Russian ship waiting for touch up and lines. Ru. Elisaveta 74 (SGN102A). Seven feet too long, but close enough for me.

[Devsdoc]

Rory, another GREEN Russian ship waiting for touch up and lines. Ru. Elisaveta 74 (SGN102A). Seven feet too long, but close enough for me.

Hi Ed,
I now see Green, as I cannot see the photo!!!!!!!!
Be safe
Rory

[Devsdoc]

Hi Ed,
I now see her, my computer is playing up That is a very dark green!!!!! I,m very happy to see your Russian fleet growing. Mine is too

From my in-shore fleet 3 Shebek
Be safe
Rory

[Naharaht]

They are great looking models, Rory!

[Gunner]

Nice looking ships Rory. What company makes those

Hi Ed,
I now see her, my computer is playing up That is a very dark green!!!!! I,m very happy to see your Russian fleet growing. Mine is too

From my in-shore fleet 3 Shebek
Be safe
Rory

[Devsdoc]

Hi David,
Thanks
Hi Ed,
Langton's Baltic range
Be safe
Rory

[Diamondback]

Ed, don't forget, if my tracing on the data you found is right, you can use SGN104 boxes to create the Triokh Sviatiteleis--someone reported they were copies of HMS Ajax, which if it meant the 1790's ship was a repeat of the older Triumph/Valiant Large 74's, which were in turn perfect replications of the same captured French 74 that the Dublin-Bellona-Arrogant-Culloden long line were negligibly-downscaled versions of. :)

Repaint and reflag, and your Tsarist forces have plenty of beatstick to chase the Turks back to their side of the Bosporus with no real surgery needed. :)

[Gunner]

Very much appreciated DB That will be my next project.

[Diamondback]

IF the source and my tracing the lineage from it are both right--big word.

[7eat51]

Congrats, Ed. She is beautiful.

Vol, truly wonderful work.

All this talk about white and black Russians and port is making me thirsty.

[TexaS]

Beautiful Russians, from both of you.

Sometime in the future, I will have to make Baltic fleets too.

[Gunner]

Beautiful Russians, from both of you.

Sometime in the future, I will have to make Baltic fleets too.

Good, the Russians usually make short work of the Ottomans

[TexaS]

We Swedes didn't do much better, I'm afraid. We've never really been that great at sea. There's always been something, bad ships, bad captains or bad admirals. The army was always the main concern.

[Mycenius]

We Swedes didn't do much better, I'm afraid. We've never really been that great at sea. There's always been something, bad ships, bad captains or bad admirals. The army was always the main concern.

It was an especially great army for a time and very powerful/influential (e.g. around the latter part of the Renaissance and through until Sweden's defeat at the end of the Great Northern War)...

[csadn]

All this talk about white and black Russians and port is making me thirsty.

Talk of Black Russians makes me think of the "gimme the strongest thing you got" gag from _Naked Gun 2&1/2_.... >:)

(Surprised _The Goon Show_ never used that gag, as they actually *had* a "black Russian" on the show....)

[John Paul]

Ed, don't forget, if my tracing on the data you found is right, you can use SGN104 boxes to create the Triokh Sviatiteleis--someone reported they were copies of HMS Ajax, which if it meant the 1790's ship was a repeat of the older Triumph/Valiant Large 74's, which were in turn perfect replications of the same captured French 74 that the Dublin-Bellona-Arrogant-Culloden long line were negligibly-downscaled versions of. :)

Repaint and reflag, and your Tsarist forces have plenty of beatstick to chase the Turks back to their side of the Bosporus with no real surgery needed. :)

If I remember correctly my namesake was responsible for bringing those plans to the Russian Navy builders attention! Though I may have it confused with some French plans he introduced when he went to take command of the Black Sea Fleet.

[Diamondback]

Were the French plans for Black Sea Fleet frigates or SoL's? If you can narrow down time and size, then I can run-down comparisons on dimensions and maybe try to ID which French design "cross-pollinated".

Given that the French Hebe and its derivatives were basically the Standard Medium Frigate on both sides of the Napoleonic Wars...

[John Paul]

Were the French plans for Black Sea Fleet frigates or SoL's? If you can narrow down time and size, then I can run-down comparisons on dimensions and maybe try to ID which French design "cross-pollinated".

Given that the French Hebe and its derivatives were basically the Standard Medium Frigate on both sides of the Napoleonic Wars...

DB,

I believe one of the frigate plans he brought to Russia with him were the plans for the USS Alliance. Though she was Yankee built the plans were from a French 40 as I recall. I've been trying to find my two biographies on J.P. to confirm, but apparently they are stuffed in a box in the attic as they are not on my shelves!! The Alliance was the frigate which was part of his squadron when he commanded the B. H. Richard, and was the ship which raked the Richard twice during it's action with the HMS Serapis!! While in France, before going on to Russia, he spent some time with his connections in the Marine Nationale, and it was believed he had copies of some of the better French frigate plans made to take with him to Russia. Which one's exactly were never really divulged except to the Russians.

The Russians were very interested in building faster frigates with bigger guns to deal with some of the fast sailing Ottoman Xebecs!

The only SOL plans I know he brought with him to Russia were the plans for the USS America (74), which he was commanding during her entire fitting out! Shortly before her commissioning she was turned over to the French as partial payment on some of the U.S. war debt to France! When he was relieved of the command he took the ship's plans with him out of disgust! Captain Jones was so livid over this action it was the main reason he took the command offered to him for the Black Sea Fleet. However, even there he ran into the same palace intrigues, lack of funding, and disloyal officers as he had found in the U.S. Navy!

[Diamondback]

Alliance was, per most sources, designed by William Hackett, 36' beam. Near-sister (well, nominally) Confederacy was ~154'9" on gundeck, so we're looking for a French 40 around 155' LGD built not later than the mid-1770s, probably call it say 1774 or earlier.

[John Paul]

Alliance was, per most sources, designed by William Hackett, 36' beam. Near-sister (well, nominally) Confederacy was ~154'9" on gundeck, so we're looking for a French 40 around 155' LGD built not later than the mid-1770s, probably call it say 1774 or earlier.

DB,

I'm working off memory on this as I can't find my notes, which may have been on my former laptop which ate itself.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Alliance was built in Portsmouth, NH, Naval Shipyard, and Hackett used a French design as the basis of the Alliance's design. As he was better known for some excellent merchant ship designs prior to the war. That obscure reference came from a general book I have on the American Revolution, though I'm not sure which one as I haven't found it after doing a quick search in a few indexes. I was never able to track down how the Alliance even ended up in France in time to be placed under Jones' Command with a French Captain commanding her. She was never listed as one of the ships transferred to France as payment for war debt. I also seem to recall the Alliance was either a 36, or a 38 gunner, but I might have that confused with another ship all together on that!

You are correct though that the Russians were looking for good designs from mid 1770s that offered at least 40 guns, and were fast good sailers, as they found the Ottoman ships were running circles around their own designs for light/medium frigates. Sadly, no particular class, or ship names were ever mentioned in the biographies for Jones except for the America!

[Diamondback]

Per my sources, it was less that Alliance went to France for crew than the psychotic Pierre Landais came here and semi-assimilated, trying to be a self-styled "Lafayette Of The Sea", and assumed command before making an eastbound crossing. Silverstone claims in The American Sailing Navy that she carried 28x12# and 12x9#--and that Confederacy carried two less 12-pounders, secondary battery reduced to 10x6# and outfitted as a galley-frigate with oar sweeps. (Similarly, the British 1773 Amazons' distant ancestor the Southamptons were also fitted with oar sweeps, a design feature that may or may not have carried on into the intermediate Niger design but definitely went no further than them either way.)

Re Alliance's fate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Alliance_%281778%29

The problem is, French and American sources generally are inconsistent on where they measure lengths unlike British who seem to almost always have both keel and gundeck available... My thinking was starting with a "Not Later Than" date and rough dimensions and layout I can start searching for similar French frigates to evaluate her against. Our best chance of these onesy-twosy ships of the early Continental Navy and 1812 USN is to find the designs they were based on and "piggyback" them onto a shared sculpt.

[John Paul]

DB,

Reading your above post jogged my memory some, so I dug in the right book to track down more info! Who would have thought to look on Wikipedia for info on the Alliance!!

I did have the Alliance and the Confederacy confused as to their respective gun numbers.

Anyway, it was none other then good ole Ben Franklin, who when approached by Mons. Landais, wrote letters of introduction for him to carry to Hancock and Adams. After his exploits on the Alfred Jones was offered command of the Alliance, but hearing she was still on the building ways he turned it down in hope of gaining an active command. Thus he ended up commanding another Sloop, Ranger! Following the capture of HMS Drake, and after loosing the Richard he was eventually offered command of the Alliance when she was in the Dutch Port of Texel. Breaking through the British blockade he again arrived in France only to be stripped of the Alliance and finally Beached in L'Orient, France.

Jones' friendship with the likes of D'Estaing and de Vaudreuil might yield some clues as to which French Frigate designs he deemed best to take along with him to the ship builders of the Black Sea Fleet.