Razée?

[TexaS]

Has anyone ever attempted to razée a Sails of Glory ship, or have any knowledge of how the ships look inside?

Yes, I admit... I would like to have HMS Indefatigable.
Would it be completely wrong to cut away the lower deck on a Elizabeth-class to make it? There is no Ardent-class 64 yet (if ever) and the difference is about 8 ft length and 2 ft width....

But even HMS Atlas, cutting away a gun deck of a British first-rate. Would it be anything close to correct? (visually that is)

I know it would probably be more correct and easier to buy a metal ship, but I'm a little curious to the project and there is the scale difference.

I think it would be interesting to see how the dremel would work on them. And yes, there would have to be a little Milliput/green stuff involved.

[Nightmoss]

Has anyone ever attempted to razée a Sails of Glory ship, or have any knowledge of how the ships look inside?

Yes, I admit... I would like to have HMS Indefatigable.
Would it be completely wrong to cut away the lower deck on a Elizabeth-class to make it? There is no Ardent-class 64 yet (if ever) and the difference is about 8 ft length and 2 ft width....

But even HMS Atlas, cutting away a gun deck of a British first-rate. Would it be anything close to correct? (visually that is)

I know it would probably be more correct and easier to but a metal ship, but I'm a little curious to the project and there is the scale difference.

I think it would be interesting to see how the dremel would work on them. And yes, there would have to be a little Milliput/green stuff involved.

I've drilled holes in the ships for rigging as well as used a dremel for my latest project of adding LEDs to simulate a fire on board. There are different plastics involved in the ship construction and it can cause the dremel or a drill to bind up very easily. I recently cracked off two masts when that happened so I would advise caution if you proceed on this project.

Post pictures of course.

[Diamondback]

I wouldn't try to razee an Elizabeth into an Ardent--the deck count is the same (both are 2 1/2-deckers) and there's no common design lineage other than that both originate from French designs. Elizabeth comes from Pierre Morineau's 1744 L'Invincible 74 via a long line of iterative improvements, Ardent from the three Lys-class 64's of similar vintage.

I need to look more into Lys's heritage, maybe there's a 74-gun relative--but if you want to make a 64 out of an SGN104 mini, look to the St. Albans and Worcester classes--St. Albans is a Mini-Me version of Bellona, Worcester similar but slightly fatter than St. Albans, and both are close enough I'd be comfortable using a completely unmodified miniature and just changing the stats.

[TexaS]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear, but the HMS Indefatigable, which is my target ship, was a 1 1/2 deck 44 gun heavy frigate razéed from an Ardent, but there is no Ardent miniature to cut off a deck from.

Cutting off the lower deck instead of the upper as historically means I don't have to break apart the deck from the sides and that it will become a little slimmer. Perhaps I cat trim off a millimeter in the stem and stern during the modification. I will have to try to take off the stern at least to cut it.

I have very little knowledge of HMS Atlas and when she was cut down from 98 guns to 74 I would guess she would still be an overly wide 74. That is why I'm thinking using a British 100 gun first rate, which I'm guessing is as close to the 98 gun second rates we will ever come in miniatures from Ares.

Another thing I don't know is how the rig was treated when a ship was razéed. Did they keep the size of the masts and sails?
I don't think I have much alternative on the models, though.

Thank you both for answering. I will post pictures and be careful if I get around to it.

[Diamondback]

Ah yes, Indefatigable... one of the recurring Pains In My Ass when trying to figure out sculpts for OrBats. I've been trying to lobby Ares to cut an Ardent sculpt for the British 64 slot, and one of the things I suggested was to offer two special packs--one Agamemnon, the other designing the tool to also be usable to pop a razee Indefatigable--which if memory serves was never completed as a 64 but rather got the chop-saw treatment before first fit-out.

[TexaS]

I wish, but I'm not that confident that Ares will make very many models that can represent one single ship. It wouldn't be economically feasible.

Thats why I was thinking of doing the razéing myself. I do hope that Ares would do the 64s, though. I would buy a few. Not as many as the 74s, but at least some.

The planned cut.

[Diamondback]

That's the thing with Specials--the original concept was to use them for ships that would never have enough different cards available for a full Series release, but then they went and turned that on its head with the IMO overstretch of the Victory sculpt to represent all British three-deckers. We do know, though, that in keeping to the original plan certain high-visibility one-offs like Santissima Trinidad are "Special Pack or Not At All"--and that the future of the SP sub-line depends on how demand for the first two go.

[David Manley]

Its a nice idea but assuming its the red bits yo are cutting off then you are actually removing the bits that survived in the real configuration and I fear you'd end up with something that looked extremely "cranky", as well as losing much of the bow and stern detail. That said it might work.

Interesting comment re metal models - of course if we were working in 1/1200 you wouldn't actually need to do a conversion as there are plenty of 1/1200 razee models available :)

[David Manley]

That's the thing with Specials--the original concept was to use them for ships that would never have enough different cards available for a full Series release, but then they went and turned that on its head with the IMO overstretch of the Victory sculpt to represent all British three-deckers. We do know, though, that in keeping to the original plan certain high-visibility one-offs like Santissima Trinidad are "Special Pack or Not At All"--and that the future of the SP sub-line depends on how demand for the first two go.

Fingers crossed that someone at Ares recognises Indefatigable as something of a "special" amongst naval wargamers and that we see her in the not too distant future along with a Pellew captain's card (she'd do for 3 ships, Magnanime and Anson as well as herself)

Of course I shall heed my own advice and not hold my breath

[David Manley]

....h if memory serves was never completed as a 64 but rather got the chop-saw treatment before first fit-out.

Not quite, she was completed as a 64 in 1784 and then cut down ten years later.

[fredmiracle]

Fingers crossed that someone at Ares recognises Indefatigable as something of a "special" amongst naval wargamers and that we see her in the not too distant future along with a Pellew captain's card (she'd do for 3 ships, Magnanime and Anson as well as herself)

Of course I shall heed my own advice and not hold my breath

Sure looks like a no-brainer from here. There just aren't that many ships that were both fairly unique and super-famous. The list of specials will probably be very short, but Indefatigable certainly seems on it

Of course maybe we will see Trinidad in 2016, and the next special in 2017 or 2018, so please do keep on breathing...

So how would Indefatigable compare to Constitution? Similar in terms of stats? Similar in terms of dimensions? Similar in terms of appearance?

[Diamondback]

Oh, must have been Commission that she never made it to as-built then. Just for clarity, are you saying that the razeeing process also removed a lot of the major exterior differences between the Ardent and Intrepid designs?

Just for reference...
Ardent as built:

Intrepid as built:

Anson/Magnanime razee inbd profile:

Sorry, came up with nothing for post-chop Indefatigable. :(

Probably doesn't matter anyway, they're so married to having to have double-sided cards we'll never get them to accept that sometimes a blank reverse is the better choice. :( :(

[TexaS]

That's the thing with Specials--the original concept was to use them for ships that would never have enough different cards available for a full Series release, but then they went and turned that on its head with the IMO overstretch of the Victory sculpt to represent all British three-deckers. We do know, though, that in keeping to the original plan certain high-visibility one-offs like Santissima Trinidad are "Special Pack or Not At All"--and that the future of the SP sub-line depends on how demand for the first two go.

I think I have to buy a few more Victories and Constitutions now. One each might not be enough...

Its a nice idea but assuming its the red bits yo are cutting off then you are actually removing the bits that survived in the real configuration and I fear you'd end up with something that looked extremely "cranky", as well as losing much of the bow and stern detail. That said it might work.

Yes, its the red bits I'm thinking of cutting. I know I'm cutting the wrong deck, but this way I don't have to cut between the deck and the sides. I'd just lower the upper part. I would though do a zig-zag and cut the upper parts of the stem and stern.

Interesting comment re metal models - of course if we were working in 1/1200 you wouldn't actually need to do a conversion as there are plenty of 1/1200 razee models available :)

I know and I'm suffering for it.

Fingers crossed that someone at Ares recognises Indefatigable as something of a "special" amongst naval wargamers and that we see her in the not too distant future along with a Pellew captain's card (she'd do for 3 ships, Magnanime and Anson as well as herself)

I agree wholeheartedly and would LOVE that special!

[Diamondback]

Jonas, I'm working on trying to shove them to offer a regular Humphreys 44 sculpt in a later series (here's the lament re double-sided cards, there are two close-relative 1814 frigates to fill the back sides of President and United States, but nothing for the back side of HMS President to do a 2-sided offering for their "Must Have" reflag version), so keep your powder dry. :) Victory really only has two other good pass-fors, 1810 HMS Boyne and 1811 HMS Union, though dubious sources suggest that there might have been another related post-1800 three-decker design--I can't remember which and I'm not sure how reliable the source is.

[fredmiracle]

here's the lament re double-sided cards, there are two close-relative 1814 frigates to fill the back sides of President and United States, but nothing for the back side of HMS President to do a 2-sided offering for their "Must Have" reflag version

This sounds really silly. One of the ships is blank on the back--so what? If they had to make the mold from scratch, then hesitancy might make more sense--less potential sales to recoup the cost. But in this case the mold is made. Why would you possibly not reuse it? Weird logic.

[Diamondback]

Weird logic.

Welcome to the Gaming Industry, Fred... LOL

The Peacock/Wasp/Frolic group of American sloops fall into the same trap. Five US names, one British name, between them no way to get three double-side-same-flag SKU's.

[TexaS]

If they were to widen the nations of the Napoleonic wars (not very likely and many years away even if it would happen) to include the Baltic, the Swedish 62-64 ships would fall into that trap too. Only one captured by the Russians.

Actually, will there even be that many other ships they could make other than merchantmen and Tonnant-class for the Napoleonic period?

At least the first-rates haven't been sold under other flags so I hope they will drop that.

[Diamondback]

If Ares pushes into Russo-Swedish wars then after 1810 the Victory sculpts work as the derivative Russian Ches'ma group of First Rates also. If you really want to boil it down, Trafalgar ALONE still needs potentially as many as 25 new sculpts to fill out, and all the oddball early-USN ships of 1812 make trying to group for sculpts the stuff of a Psychotic Episode. Lots of territory still to cover just in the Napoleonic Era, and that would be even if they stayed focused on the name timeframe even without pushing back into the AWI or the Seven Years' War.

[TexaS]

Yes, but most blocked by the 4 + 2 ships for each sculpt demand.

And by the way... The double sided ship card wasn't even in their original concept but added as a bonus in the kickstarter...
Now it's a blocker in our way of getting interesting ships.

[Jason]

For me the double sided cards are useless, as most of the time, I actually don't give a damn, what name is printed on the card. For me it's a ****-class ship, the one I use for the scenario, as they use the same sculpt for a bunch of different units anyway.

Regarding the razee - I haven't tried to cut the sgn plastic, but wouldn't it be possible to slice off a 2 or 3 milimeter thin layer of the deck, and trash the upper gun deck? And then glue it to the lower decks? I believe some black paint would visually hide the setoff. Personally, I would push for the increased effort, for my inner diminutive-shipbuilder to feel better :)


Do you have ideas for the "Indefatigable" stats?

[Capn Duff]

Now I am not an authority on ship models, nor on ships in general.
However instead of cutting down a model, have you tried getting a 1/1200 SOL and just file down the lower gun ports.
The 1/1200 are obviously smaller models, I tend to think that the 74 look like Large frigates, so would not a 64 also pass as a large frigate or a larger SoL to be a 64?
Just a thought and happy for anyone to shoot the theory down for correct reasons

[TexaS]

I think I would have to have the ship before worrying about the stats... Fist things first.

My thought is that the upper edges would be hard to keep and the deck might be too slim to reach the new sides if it was done that way, the "correct" way.

Also, my way there might be a way to shorten it a millimeter or two and ti will give a little smaller beam, which would make it more accurate.

It's a $20 gamble that might be completely unnecessary if Ares makes it, but I'm very tempted to try it.

I'm planning on setting up Battle of Santo Domingo on a Swedish gaming convention in May. I would like to have a HMS Atlas by then, but I'm more inclined to try this conversion first. I have an unpainted Le Berwick/Swiftsure I could try it on, but I only have two British first rates and they are both painted and rigged.

[Jason]

I am waiting for your conversion then. If you make the stats afterwards, I'd just be happy to play-test them the cheap and easy way - using a frigate model

[TexaS]

Jan:

Chris: You are right and even worse, there's a model of HMS Indefatigable from Langton, but I would like it to be a somewhat oversized frigate that she must have been. You would loose some of that when scaled down.

[fredmiracle]

If they were to widen the nations of the Napoleonic wars (not very likely and many years away even if it would happen)

Yes I had once hoped Ares would expand the range to make it fairly complete, but at this point it seems silly to even think about it. The pace of new ships appears glacial--it's been about 22 months since the game was funded, and even more that Ares has been working on it, and right now we still have 8 models.

I will take what there is, but the idea of getting Swedish and Russian ships in the next decade seems negligible...

[Jason]

It would be a miracle, Fred

I would be thrilled if only they restocked retailers in my country, I don't go as far as dreaming about new designs.

[Naharaht]

My experience drilling the deck with a hand drill to repair broken masts makes me believe that the models are hollow, so you will need to take that into account, if you do start to cut down a model, Jonas.

[TexaS]

First cut:



The sides are thicker than I thought...

[TexaS]

At last I'm through:



And on both sides:

[TexaS]

Then I got the stem off:



Now it was apparent why it was hard work. The bottom is U-shaped and the guns are from the bottom sticking through the sides making them double thick.

[TexaS]

Finally apart:



I have been cutting too close to the bottom and gotten a lot of unnecessary extra work.

Yes it looks awful, but Now I will take out the file...

[TexaS]

I cut off the stern using a knife and then cut it in two and filed down the parts to loose a deck.

Lower part with rudder fixed to the bottom:



Yes, I finally lost a mast while filing the hull smooth.

[fredmiracle]

This is like seeing a gory operation on TV...

[Gunner]

This is like seeing a gory operation on TV...

Aye, but will the patient live.

[TexaS]

All the bits together with the hull filed down some and will soon be ready for some milliput and assembly:



Parts put together but not glued for a preview of how it might look:



And a little size comparison:



It's been two hours work, which is more than it would have been if I had known its construction before. I could have cut down (he, he) on cutting time knowing I should have cut more upwards.

[TexaS]

Aye, but will the patient live.

I think there's life in her, but I guess the doctor tries to keep the hope up.

[TexaS]

I'm too tired to continue building, so I'm just posing her:



And a size comparison more:

[David Manley]

Looking good

[fredmiracle]

"Gentlemen, we can rebuild her. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first SGN razee. Indefatigable will be that ship. Better than she was before. Better, stronger, faster."

It is going to be awesome

[Nightmoss]

"Gentlemen, we can rebuild her. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first SGN razee. Indefatigable will be that ship. Better than she was before. Better, stronger, faster."

It is going to be awesome

Where have I heard that before? 6 million dollar Indefatigable, or Titanic 2?

[7eat51]

Very cool, Jonas. Looking forward to seeing the finished project.

[TexaS]

Thank you for your kind words.

Ask for pictures and you've opened the flood doors...

Milliput applied and waiting for it to harden:



The stem has been worked over since this was taken when the milliput had become a little harder.

The uppermost part of the stern has been filed down since then, but:



And a size comparison with two small frigates. It will be interesting to compare it with USS Constitution, whenever that arrives...

[TexaS]

Fixed the stem and started painting.



Side view:



Even though I'm not even sure what I will do with the side galleries, I've painted the stern. The gold doesn't really show, but it's there.

[TexaS]

Finally she's finished apart for perhaps a few touch ups.







Now the big question is what stats would she have?

Are there any experts of how the stats have been set?

[fredmiracle]

Pretty awesome--nice work!!

[Gunner]

That should prevent any frigate from raiding Swedish coastal towns
I hope someone better versed than I in SOG's point system will supply the stats.

[Mycenius]

That should prevent any frigate from raiding Swedish coastal towns

What, may one ask, are the especial delights of Swedish Coastal Towns for any would be raiders to keep an eye out for...?

I hope someone better versed than I in SOG's point system will supply the stats.

Indeed!

[TexaS]

What, may one ask, are the especial delights of Swedish Coastal Towns for any would be raiders to keep an eye out for...?

I'd say wine, women and song, but that might just be for the defenders...

[TexaS]

And by the way...

Thank you Diamondback! I had good use of that Anson/Magnanime plans.

[7eat51]

Nicely done, Jonas.

What, may one ask, are the especial delights of Swedish Coastal Towns for any would be raiders to keep an eye out for...?

Lutfisk.