Merchantmen this year?
The latest word on merchantmen. Keep your fingers crossed.
Ares Games says:
Dear Ed,
...Victory and Constitution will have special cards (crew and command) but "standard ship" have only one ship cards.
About merchantman.... maybe in 2015 :)
Best Regards
Ares Staff
Well, well. That's better than, "Go suck a lemon?".Originally Posted by Gunner
The latest word on merchantmen. Keep your fingers crossed.
Ares Games says:
Dear Ed,
...Victory and Constitution will have special cards (crew and command) but "standard ship" have only one ship cards.
About merchantman.... maybe in 2015 :)
Best Regards
Ares Staff
Maybe our prior conversations concerning dual packs with pirates and merchantmen got some attention?!? Would be so cool if so, and really I don't need the pirates as much as I'd like the merchantmen.
I don't need pirates either, but I'll buy a bunch of merchantmen.
Gents, Merchants and Pirates are actually one of the core criteria they look at for new sculpts.
From a personal email from Rob:
Spanish, starting; French and British, working on; Trafalgar, working on and gets closer as prior are checked off; 1812, gonna get ugly with all those nasty "I'll Do As I Damn Well Please" American shipwrights building the early USN.At the very least I see already as "major" to'dos:
- Merchant-men and Pirates
- Complete the Trafalgar line-up
- Complete the major classes and type of French/British ships
- Make the War of 1812 playable
- More Spanish ships
Let's say that ship types who are fit to fulfill multiple wishes are better candidates!
That's good news DB. Can't wait for a French 80, Brit 64 & Spanish 1st rate, not to mention the Santisima Trinidad.
Spanish 1st Rate: Wave 3.
French 80: Not sure but there's a slim chance Tonnant/Bucentaure could be done as a Temeraire repop--battery difference is like one pair of guns each deck aft.
British 64: I'm working on Ares here--there's one group that could be done as a Bellona repop, but I suspect the Ardent with its reflags (and HMS Agamemnon), Intrepid or Inflexible (both of which saw service at Trafalgar and IIRC in 1812) are more likely than the three-off-each St. Albanses and Worcesters.
Santissima Trinidad: Depends how well Victory and Constitution sell--with nothing else it can pass for, this ship is Special Pack or Not Gonna Happen At All, to my assessment.
Thanks DB. Always interesting to see what we might expect even if some of it will likely be in the distant future.
With the USS Constitution coming soonish is there an existing sculpt(s) that folks will be using to endeavor recreating the Java or Guerriere battles? The indication that Ares wants to make the War of 1812 playable I'm assuming refers to the Great Lakes battles and not necessarily the Atlantic ones?
So what 1812 sculpts might Ares do (acknowledging that a couple have been 3D rendered and already available on Shapeways by Gina)?
I'll refrain from discussing WoG WW2 maneuver decks, promise.
Java I think would work as a reprint/proxy Hebe. Guerriere is the pain in the ass... I can't find crap about her engineering heritage beyond that she was originally ordered as a Romaine mortar-frigate, amended to a full frigate and then J-F Lafosse started doodling and built what he thought best. There is almost no design commentary about her anywhere... hopefully that will change when Rif Winfield gets the second volume of French Warships in the Age of Sail out in several years. (First one's not even done yet!)
No idea on 1812 sculpts, but a Cruizer brig-sloop is certainly in the "They're Idiots If They DON'T Do It" category.
BTW, it's not that I objected to the subject, it's that I objected to the Wunderwaffen Fanboy crowd's hijacking of a thread not even in THEIR WAR--it is a subject to be discussed, but that was not time or place for it.
Thanks! I can plan on using a proxy Hebe for Java at least. Should be fun! Not too far off either. . .fingers crossed on fast delivery from Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Interesting they are pursuing the Trafalgar ship route given that the game system is completely inappropriate for that battle. Perhaps they understand the ships may be used with other rules systems?
I'm sure they are. Causing fish like me to buy more and more and oopsInteresting they are pursuing the Trafalgar ship route given that the game system is completely inappropriate for that battle. Perhaps they understand the ships may be used with other rules systems?
I think this represents our sentiment even though it has a Star Wars theme ...
Large battles are a logistical challenge, but folks have done them (Battle of the Nile by Walram).Interesting they are pursuing the Trafalgar ship route given that the game system is completely inappropriate for that battle. Perhaps they understand the ships may be used with other rules systems?
More realistically I can see myself taking smaller engagements out of a larger battle (Santa Ana vs Royal Sovereign for instance) as something I could manage. Haven't some here suggested Trafalgar as a campaign battle with smaller tactical engagements contributing to the larger outcome?
Actually, I'm designing a 5-action "campaign" based on that very idea... IF I can find a logical place to split the Franco-Spanish line between "Nelson's Battle" and "Collingwood's Battle", and then find places to split each of those into two separate engagements. (The fifth action is the follow-up at Cape Ortegal under Strachan.)
Thinking maybe split Nelson's at the time of his death, giving his side some bonus abilities before that point that wouldn't be available in Part 2.
Sounds appealing to me, DB. I'll certainly be watching and waiting to see what you come up with.
Indeed. Fiscally very clever though as people will shell out for them all anywayInteresting they are pursuing the Trafalgar ship route given that the game system is completely inappropriate for that battle. Perhaps they understand the ships may be used with other rules systems?
I wouldn't bet on that......
Jim, I'm hoping to convince Ares to actually BUY (of course, since it's based on David Manley's math I insist on him getting a cut and a Co-Author cred) a line of Campaign Books I'm hoping to write--Trafalgar and the AWI Indian Ocean Campaign are just the first two.Sounds appealing to me, DB. I'll certainly be watching and waiting to see what you come up with.
The indication that Ares wants to make the War of 1812 playable I'm assuming refers to the Great Lakes battles and not necessarily the Atlantic ones?Well, that's actually good news, but the 'when' part must still be way down the road. . .
That would be awesome for you and David, but also for us. I certainly hope that Ares moves quickly on this. They have limited staff and resources, plus an increasing line of IP's so I won't hold my breath (I'm not being negative, just practical).
They need to do something to kickstart some life into this game.
DB, you need to move to Italy. You'll enjoy the food.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I won't enjoy a lot of other things there, though, like guilty-until-proven-innocent and double-jeopardy. Believe me, if I can avoid seafood, mushrooms and organ meats Italian food and I already get along just fine... I take second place only to Garfield in lasagna addiction. :)
You're so right Eric. I talked to some people who don't want to get started with SoG because they heard of problems with product and packaging and "don't want the hassle".
Who ever handles Ares PR needs to look into their QC oversights and convince people that the old problems are solved. (That package dropping video of theirs was a joke. Apparently the girl in it doesn't doesn't throw the package as hard as parcel post/UPS handlers do.)
Yeah, and Bill at 12-7 has dropped preorders for future Ares releases because they can't keep to a schedule and he can't keep rearranging his life around their "it gets out when it gets out" release schedule. If they routinely run 2 months later than expected, they need to start dialing a 2-month adjustment into their baseline expectations.
Is 12-7 going to carry future SGN products or have they given up on Ares?
My understanding is, they'll stock AFTER release but won't be trying to fight for "release day" anymore--Bill has a family and needs time with them, and can't reschedule every time somebody in China screws the pooch and delays things YET AGAIN. You might want to drop him a note and ask to get the Straight From Horse's Mouth version yourself, just to be sure. :)
I just read this entire post through and I have two general impressions: ARES is a rinky dink operation, and the people with the most input to
Ares are cynical *******s. The war of 1812 is a non-starter for Ares. There is simply no market for it. You might as well be pressing Ares to release ships involved in the battle of Öland (1789). There is only one pirate ship in history that any historically minded person would care about, and that is Blackbeard's "Queen Anne's Revenge", which was a French merchantman...the original posting by Ed.
Please explain.
I think Ares' target market is much broader than historical war-gamers. As such, if they introduced an ahistorical ship that had mass appeal, and if that ship would help with positive cash flow and profitability, most of us who are interested in historically oriented wargaming would applaud due to the increased sustainability of the line. Ares does not have the deep pockets of other companies. Additionally, if players, like me for example, who run games can use, at times, ahistorical ships that have appeal to non-wargamers as a gateway into the game, we would welcome their production.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
As for my personal experience, in my small Napoleonic miniatures group they like the historical aspect (and ease of play) that SOG allows. In my general gaming group, they like the system and it's ease of play, and could care relatively little of the historical value.
Our gaming group is in the "quasi historical" camp - they like games with a strong historical flavour to them but they won't get too humg up on exactly what model one is using for the game. So a 74 is a 74 is a 74 in most cases. And we are quite happy to switch in ships of other nationalities (for example, we've done several Swedish/Rusian games with French and British ships substituted in).
Would there be any interest in ahistorical pirate ship types? Maybe one or two, but no more. More popular would be a few types of merchies that could be pressed into service as pirates, corsairs and privateers when needed - but the prime "need" would be merchies for their obvious value in convoy actions.
I personally think Ares should re-chrome the game into a Pirates version. That would generate a lot of cash flow and get young gamers into sailing fighting ships. As they mature, they could make the move over to historical and Ares could double tap them :D
If the Pirate version had just a hit of experience/role playing for the captain and crews, it would be immensely popular.
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
How would the game be any different in mechanics?I personally think Ares should re-chrome the game into a Pirates version.
They could sell "pirate" ships as add-ons to the existing game. Most people aren't even going to know the differences in the ships, anyway. A sailing ship is a sailing ship.
No market for the famous frigate battles of the War of 1812 for SoG? It's pretty apparent that the USS Constitution is going to sell well.
I think you mistake what you are interested in as being what everyone else is interested in.
Pure nonsense. Anyone interested in pirate history are going to be interested in historical pirate ships. Anyone not interested in pirate history but think that pirates are "cool" are going to be interested in historical pirate ships.There is only one pirate ship in history that any historically minded person would care about, and that is Blackbeard's "Queen Anne's Revenge", which was a French merchantman..
The problem with historical pirate ships was they were too small to match the warships in SGN, and didn't seek to fight anyway.
If Ares wanted to stretch history, and offer a version of each model in some imaginary, creative piratical paint scheme, and it was appealing to some segment of players, why the heck not? I might or might not buy some (I'm sure I wouldn't buy them all), but that's fine.
The big question is whether this would be enough to generate interest and sales from pirate fans, or more would be demanded. I think it is much harder than people are imagining to bolt on some new and exciting pirate-play dimension to the SGN as it stands. If I were Ares, I would definitely NOT want to make "Pirate SGN" a NEW and separate game--this is a lot of overhead, risks fragmenting the fan base, confusing the channel, etc. So instead it would have to be some pirate extension/variant. But this would still require a lot of thought and investment, and would probably end up being vanilla and not really compelling due to the need to stay compatible with SGN, etc.
In short if I were Ares I wouldn't do it.
What I would do is pick two of the existing frigates, reissue them painted as pirates, make up some salty names for them, maybe add a bonus captain card for each one, and see if they sell.
In sailing and fighting the ships, not much if anything really. I think the only area that would need tweaking would be the boarding part. If they turned that into a tactical tabletop sub game, they could really play up the flavor of pirates. Think along the lines of Sid Meier's "Pirates!" here. But just redoing all the artwork and paint work in pirate theme might even be enough. Just call it SGP.
The sales figures, at least from the AA store, support that there is a lot less interest in the Connie then the Victory... which would translate into the interest in the wars they fought in.
Unfortunately, most truly historical players are always going to look down on anything pirate as not real. There is a small margin where the two groups overlap, but for the most part even pirate fans are not going to look very hard at a game that is mainly geared towards historical encounters and just has a half hand full of pirates (and toned down at that due to the historical nature of them) in it. That's why I think they should brand the game in each way. They'd cover both markets and double tap the overlap guys and most likely cross pollinate many players from both sides.
I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.
You all know I am not into buying into S.O.G. game. I would always play the game. I'm slowly building a small fleet of merchant ships. For what David said above. A frigate and brig defending a slow convoy from X number of corsairs/privateers. The more ships used in the attack the less points/money/booty each merchant is worth.
Off thread David, How did the Swedes and Russians game go?
Be safe
Rory
While not a real pirate fan, I believe what Keith said is very true. Get the young gamers who love fantasy anything, into the naval aspect of gaming. As they grow older and start to appreciate history a good part of them will get into historical gaming.
After some thought, I'd like to try it out.
I want enough variety to customize what I am doing for a given session. I would love some Ares pirate ships, alla our beloved Jim's schemes. I put his pirates on a table, and I will draw crowds. I am in agreement with Ed and Keith in that pirates would serve as a gateway into historical gaming; please, Ares, give us visually sexy pirate ships. Like Fred said, use existing sculpts; paint them piratey and I don't think any player would care.
I, as well, would like an expanded line of historical ships. Instead of more of the same in different colors, though, I would like to see an expanded line of types of historical ships, merchants definitely included. I enjoy history and teaching it to others, and whenever I have talked about history at a WoG/SoG table, the players seemed to enjoy it.
So in essence, I don't see why it has to be only one way.
To David's point about a 74 is a 74 is a 74, I think that is spot on. As soon as the game starts, most every player I have seen focuses on maneuvers, etc. Given that the ships are at least at arm's length by that time, it is hard telling the difference among much on the table. What people notice, I think, is the composite view, i.e. how the table looks as a whole. Before the game, the eye candy is the individual ships. Once the game starts, the eye candy is the table. That is one of the reasons I want to play with Rory one day.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Oh, to Keith's point about boarding rule changes with pirates, I think that could be quite interesting either in terms of tweaks to current rules or to using something like the 1/300??? scale ships. One of the first things I thought of when seeing those larger sculpts was the ability to play boarding actions. There you go, an Ares-Zvezda partnership. They could market it as a game that covers AoS gameplay, from A to Z.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
The barbary pirates are probably the best opportunity year wise to be compatible with SGN if a barbary pirate vessel like the tripoli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_1_August_1801 isn't big enough Ares could always do a historical what if scenario such as what if the barbary pirates captured a 3rd rate of an enemy nation. Release said unit as a repaint in barbary colours.
The game looks good enough that it catches plenty of attention visually at the FLGS but if some of the ships have pirate colours your going to get people inquiring about it. I am personally only interested in the historic ships but sometimes the best way to keep the line going is to do things that enhance the size of the player base.
If you want a pirate ship in SOG. Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge is a 300 tons burthen, 103 ft long, 24 ft beam, merchantman with a crew of 125 and 20 or so working cannons. All ARES would need to do is repaint the HMS Swan. Captain Kidd's Adventure Galley is almost as big. That would be repaint number 2 for the HMS Swan. Bartholomew
Robert's Royal Fortune could also be a repaint of the HMS Swan, so the magic number of 3 is reached for a repaint. You could reenact the battle of Cape Lopez, which ended the golden age of piracy. It might be interesting to pit historical pirate ships against frigates or sloops.
Royal Fortune:
Queen Anne's Revenge
Adventure Galley
Last edited by Kentop; 01-10-2015 at 10:35.
And therein lies the rub - some of the meatiest pirate ships represented by the weakest, least impressive ship in the game. If pirate gaming was a serious intention with these rule gsit needs a significant revision of the stat range and bigger models. There's a very good reason why peter Pig went for 1/450 scale for its pirate ships....
And yet, every SOG player in the US is waiting with baited breath for the USS Constitution. Are they going to say, "Gee, I thought it would be bigger"? It's not the ship so much as the story behind it. Ever hear of canoe battleship? http://youtu.be/VJLm3RH1yKw
I was curious too when Keith said that "there is a lot less interest in the Connie then the Victory", given that 70% of SGN players are reportedly in the US. Personally I can see far greater potential for multiple sales for the former than the later.
(fwiw I'm having two of the former and 1 of the latter)
We won't really know until stores are stocked and reorders are placed. But my money is on the Constitution.
Reading through this thread was a bit depressing.
I think that Sails Of Glory (and Wings Of Glory for that matter) is a great game so hopefully it has a long and fruitful life in whatever form it will take. I don't want Ares to throw away their opportunities.
I know that Ares doesn't have the deep pockets of companies like FFG and WizKids but they could do well if they got their act together in their niche market.
Here's hoping!
Chin up old chap, don't forget that wargamers are never happier than when they are moaning about something
David,Chin up old chap, don't forget that wargamers are never happier than when they are moaning about something
Would you hear ME moaning about Ares
Be safe
Rory
Amen!Chin up old chap, don't forget that wargamers are never happier than when they are moaning about something
I've never been happier!Chin up old chap, don't forget that wargamers are never happier than when they are moaning about something
No, but you'd be moaning if Rod Langton decides to retire. About a year or so ago I recall the rumors were rampant he was going to call it quits!David,
Would you hear ME moaning about Ares
Be safe
Rory
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