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Thread: USS Pennsylvania (1837)-Kitbash WIP

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    Default USS Pennsylvania (1837)-Kitbash WIP

    I expect many folks here know about the Naval Act of 1794, or at least they know of the six frigates that were authorized by the US Congress on March 27th of that year. Many of us are waiting anxiously for the USS Constitution from Ares, which is the most famous of the original six. What I didn't realize was that on April 19, 1816 the US Congress also authorized the construction of "nine ships to rate not less than 74 guns each"; basically ships of the line. Most of these ships were never launched remaining 'on the stocks' because of cost and the fact that the US Navy could more effectively rely on heavy frigates like the Constitution.

    Just recently I saw an old Currier and Ives lithograph of the USS Pennsylvania, one of the 'nine' that actually did get launched and thought it might be fun to kitbash a version of it. From what I've read the ship never was fully fitted out and only sailed once, to Norfolk Navy Yard. It remained there until it was burned to the waterline to prevent it from falling into Confederate hands. Certainly a less than glorious career, however, the Pennsylvania was still the largest sailing warship ever built for the US Navy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pennsylvania_(1837)

    Here's a wiki link to the List of ships of the line of the United States Navy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States_Navy
    Another bit of information I never knew was that two of these ships were under construction in Sackets Harbor, New York (USS Chippewa and USS New Orleans) on Lake Ontario.

    USS New Orleans
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    The Ares ship I'm going to use as a basic sculpt for the Pennsylvania is the Commerce de Marseille 1788. It's not an exact match, but I can make it look like a four decker fairly easily, and at a distance it may not matter? Also, it was one of the 1st Rates I received with a broken foremast. http://www.aresgames.eu/games/sails-...ps-of-the-line

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    So, starting from this:

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    I hope we'll end up with something that looks like this:

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    Ship model at the Hampton Roads Naval Museum http://hamptonroadsnavalmuseum.blogs...-line-uss.html

    Right now the Ares model is soaking in alcohol to remove paint and decals.

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    More pictures and progress forthcoming. Cheers!

  2. #2

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    The fourth deck, being a spar deck, could be achieved by joining the forecastle and quarterdeck on the model. It looks pretty flush in these photos.

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    Last edited by Coog; 11-02-2014 at 17:32.

  3. #3

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    I would not be totally surprised if Ares makes a model for this class sometime, even though they barely made it into actual existence, just because they would make the USA much more credible as a full-fledged faction (sorry David Manley) in the game and might leverage Ares' existing investment in US ships.

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    Thanks for the photos Bobby. I had seen one or two of them, but not the entire series. Will definitely help when I get to that point.

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    I would--we're looking at a hard cutoff of 1815 per Andrea A. and Roberto, and only three American SOL's were launched before that: Revolution-era America, gifted to France and soon dismantled, and 1814 sisters Independence and Washington, a pair of 190' super-74s.

    Frankly, I'd bet on 1817 HMS Trincomalee before USS Pennsylvania--the USN was a statistical minority of both the hulls and tonnage of the world's warships of the time, and while Trincomalee is post-cutoff she also still exists today as a museum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I would--we're looking at a hard cutoff of 1815 per Andrea A. and Roberto, and only three American SOL's were launched before that: Revolution-era America, gifted to France and soon dismantled, and 1814 sisters Independence and Washington, a pair of 190' super-74s.
    And I seriously doubt we will see those. The way it is looking now I don't think we will see any other American ships other than the American 38s at best and that will be at least 2 years off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    I would not be totally surprised if Ares makes a model for this class sometime, even though they barely made it into actual existence, just because they would make the USA much more credible as a full-fledged faction (sorry David Manley) in the game and might leverage Ares' existing investment in US ships.
    It would be interesting to see if Ares ever went that far into a hypothetical US Navy. While looking at other websites I saw this 'factoid'. "In 1815 the entire US naval force assembled in the Mediterranean under Commodore William Bainbridge consisted of 18 warships, including ship-of-the-line Independence, 5 frigates, 2 sloops-of-war, 7 brigs, and 3 schooners. This was the largest fleet ever collected under the American flag in the Mediterranean to that time".

    18 ships is probably insignificant when compared with the quantity of ships Great Britain, France, Spain, Russia, etc., were supporting in the Mediterranean and the rest of the world? Still for the US I expect it was considered somewhat prestigious?

    In another vein there was no reason to complete the USS New Orleans and USS Chippewa because the War of 1812 had ended and the HMS St. Lawrence was uncontested on Lake Ontario (the only Royal Navy Ship of the Line to be launched and operated on fresh water). But what if?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_St_Lawrence_%281814%29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I would--we're looking at a hard cutoff of 1815 per Andrea A. and Roberto, and only three American SOL's were launched before that: Revolution-era America, gifted to France and soon dismantled, and 1814 sisters Independence and Washington, a pair of 190' super-74s.

    Frankly, I'd bet on 1817 HMS Trincomalee before USS Pennsylvania--the USN was a statistical minority of both the hulls and tonnage of the world's warships of the time, and while Trincomalee is post-cutoff she also still exists today as a museum.
    As modelers and modders I don't think we necessarily have to cut off the ships at 1815? The US was a minority player for sure, but if I'm going to kitbash a ship I'll choose this:

    USS Vermont
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    Over this:

    USS Independence
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    Wow, that is one fugly ship. It looks like an obese frigate. Something about the white gunnels and the mast height in proportion to the beam. That's one huge bowsprit, though. That dolphin striker could do double duty as a topsail yard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I would--we're looking at a hard cutoff of 1815 per Andrea A. and Roberto, and only three American SOL's were launched before that: Revolution-era America, gifted to France and soon dismantled, and 1814 sisters Independence and Washington, a pair of 190' super-74s.

    Frankly, I'd bet on 1817 HMS Trincomalee before USS Pennsylvania--the USN was a statistical minority of both the hulls and tonnage of the world's warships of the time, and while Trincomalee is post-cutoff she also still exists today as a museum.
    Well, I'm sure you know more about what's in their minds than I do. You're probably right that USS Pennsylvania is too late. But I still say USA could get a SOL sooner rather than later. Of course it was a small fry navy then. But it's a big market for the game today, and Ares has already invested 2 of the 30 models created so far in US ships. Why not do a 74 and one more frigate, and make the US a "full-featured" nation in the game? A glance at Wiki suggests there might be 6 ~1815 74-gun hulls to choose from. If a couple are "never completed" I don't see it as that big a deal. The hypothetical scenarios could be fun

    All this of course assumes the game gets back on course and has no more wave-2 type fiascos...

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    Maybe an image other than In Ordinary would be a better comparison? LOL

    Personally, I'd rather see the Peacock group despite it meaning bending a few rules... (like for the reflag, HMS West Florida with no "running mate")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentop View Post
    Wow, that is one fugly ship. It looks like an obese frigate. Something about the white gunnels and the mast height in proportion to the beam. That's one huge bowsprit, though. That dolphin striker could do double duty as a topsail yard!
    That's an older model of the Pennsylvania if you're referring to the photos Bobby attached? The more recent model and a history of the ship at the Hampton Road Naval Museum are a bit more appealing? This model is one of the more popular exhibits at the museum. The ship that never was?

    http://hamptonroadsnavalmuseum.blogs...-line-uss.html

    Guess I can't ask for a ship card and base card when she's done, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    Well, I'm sure you know more about what's in their minds than I do. You're probably right that USS Pennsylvania is too late. But I still say USA could get a SOL sooner rather than later. Of course it was a small fry navy then. But it's a big market for the game today, and Ares has already invested 2 of the 30 models created so far in US ships. Why not do a 74 and one more frigate, and make the US a "full-featured" nation in the game? A glance at Wiki suggests there might be 6 ~1815 74-gun hulls to choose from. If a couple are "never completed" I don't see it as that big a deal. The hypothetical scenarios could be fun

    All this of course assumes the game gets back on course and has no more wave-2 type fiascos...
    The other ship of the line I'm considering as a kitbash will be the USS Ohio. Again, it's past the Ares cut off of 1815, but it's still an appealing 74.

    http://www.navyhistory.org/2011/10/u...t-building-92/

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    I would not be totally surprised if Ares makes a model for this class sometime, even though they barely made it into actual existence, just because they would make the USA much more credible as a full-fledged faction (sorry David Manley) in the game and might leverage Ares' existing investment in US ships.
    Faction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hulk smash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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    Down, boy! Sit! Stay! Heel! LOL

    Besides, "nation" is state actors only... have a better term to include NGO's like pirate bands and mercenary outfits? :D

    Fred, if one pays attention to history the US was NOT a credible first-rate navy until at least the last half of the 19th Century... insisting that the USN get the same lineup as everyone else is akin to the German Fanboys in WWII gaming demanding that because everybody else gets aircraft carriers and the US and Japan get super-battleships so should they.

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    Sorry, but "faction" is one of those words that the gaming industry uses when its being lazy. Seeing the Luftwaffe and the USAAF described as "factions" for example in another set of rules is just plain daft. And disrespectful when you consider the "real world" application of the word.

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    True... though it does help in cases of interservice rivalry, like how the US and Japan both had separate air arms under both Army and Navy, while all German and Italian air were concentrated in a single air-service and if memory serves the FAA was basically a subsidiary of the RAF, though treated as a bastard stepchild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Faction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hulk smash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    LOL. I knew that was coming. Nations or Countries will be my references of choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Down, boy! Sit! Stay! Heel! LOL

    Besides, "nation" is state actors only... have a better term to include NGO's like pirate bands and mercenary outfits? :D

    Fred, if one pays attention to history the US was NOT a credible first-rate navy until at least the last half of the 19th Century... insisting that the USN get the same lineup as everyone else is akin to the German Fanboys in WWII gaming demanding that because everybody else gets aircraft carriers and the US and Japan get super-battleships so should they.
    I think we're talking options to history (at least I am). The US wasn't in the big league for 1st rates on the high seas, but seeing as we did have some SoL's it's entertaining to speculate. As for Ares including ships that may not fit historically I recall you're going to have a story to relate concerning an upcoming Spanish ship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Fred, if one pays attention to history the US was NOT a credible first-rate navy until at least the last half of the 19th Century... insisting that the USN get the same lineup as everyone else is akin to the German Fanboys in WWII gaming demanding that because everybody else gets aircraft carriers and the US and Japan get super-battleships so should they.
    Yes of course it is true that the US was not a first line navy at that time. Actually the USN was, I believe, a very good navy ship for ship, and I have the impression that by 1815, the British in some ways took the USN "more seriously," (admittedly a vague criteria) than the Russians or Danish or Spanish, say. But be that as it may, the US did have a few SOLs, and a few more that were at least started. And so if I'm Ares, and I've already DONE some US ships (as opposed to Dutch or Russian or Danish or Turkish...), and USA is a big potential market, and there are some real ships that could be done, I would (IMO) be a bit silly if I didn't think hard about doing a US SOL model.

    I don't see that as fanboy, as much as pragmatic. For me personally, I'd buy them, but I'd also buy Russian or Dutch or Turkish SOLs too...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Sorry, but "faction" is one of those words that the gaming industry uses when its being lazy. Seeing the Luftwaffe and the USAAF described as "factions" for example in another set of rules is just plain daft. And disrespectful when you consider the "real world" application of the word.
    Ha, I couldn't resist giving you a small poke. Sorry I don't really get off on linguistic nitpicks personally. For me, if everyone understands, then it's a decent use of language.

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    Its not a nitpick. Its a fundamentally incorrect word. makes me wonder if people ever bother to read bloody dictionaries these days

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post

    Guess I can't ask for a ship card and base card when she's done, huh?
    I'd be more than happy to create a ship card and base card for it. It's stats should reflect that it's best role in the navy would be to anchor it and use it as a harbor defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post

    Guess I can't ask for a ship card and base card when she's done, huh?
    I'd be more than happy to create a ship card and base card for it. It's stats should reflect that it's best role in the navy would be to anchor it and use it as a harbor defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Its not a nitpick. Its a fundamentally incorrect word. makes me wonder if people ever bother to read bloody dictionaries these days
    Lots of words have domain-specific meanings, and not all of them have risen to the level (at least yet) to make it in the dictionary.

    You may argue that it's not a useful domain-specific meaning, but I feel it actually does carry some semantic value, since it places the emphasis on how the nation (or organization or whatever) is represented in the game, and in the context of the game's dynamics.

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    Something weird just happened. The anchorage site froze when I replied to a post. I left, came back, saw that my reply still hadn't posted, clicked post quick reply and and it double posted!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentop View Post
    Something weird just happened. The anchorage site froze when I replied to a post. I left, came back, saw that my reply still hadn't posted, clicked post quick reply and and it double posted!
    Site has been screwed up all day. It's working now, but who knows for how long?

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    So we have the Pro-"Faction" Faction, and the Anti-"Faction" Faction....

    >;)

    [fleeing]

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    [Mr. T voice]"SHUT UP, FOO!"[/voice] :p

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    Have a glass of milk.

    >;)

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    *ceremoniously dumps glass of milk over Chris's head*

    Ever get the feeling that we're kind of the Spy vs Spy of this community? LOL (Dibs on Black! :D )

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    CHRIS AND DB's REAL IDENTITIES?

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    LOL, only thing in MAD Magazine worth reading...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    *ceremoniously dumps glass of milk over Chris's head*

    Ever get the feeling that we're kind of the Spy vs Spy of this community? LOL (Dibs on Black! :D )
    Nah -- just Pirates; spending as much time fighting each other as the Slaves To Government around us. >;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    ...as the Slaves To Government around us. >;)
    Or, as I prefer, "Minions of Caesar."

    :D

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    Jim, it is nice to see you back in the docks working on ships. I always enjoy seeing your handiwork. I believe the Pennsylvania would be quite lovely on a gaming table against the blue.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Jim, it is nice to see you back in the docks working on ships. I always enjoy seeing your handiwork. I believe the Pennsylvania would be quite lovely on a gaming table against the blue.
    Thanks, Eric.

    A brief update on the Pennsylvania. Paint was stripped and removed with a tooth brush for sails and hull. All the sail masts were drilled out and re-pinned using sewing pins cut to size. I raised the bulwark to make it appear that the fourth gun deck is more or less flush from forecastle to quarterdeck. I also added a strip of plastic in front of the catheads to accentuate the blunt bow look. I added gun ports and guns on the fourth deck and while they're pretty crude they'll look better when painted. The sails got one coat of base paint and the hull was primed with black primer. I also tried scoring the deck to give an impression of planking but I'm not sure that's going to look as good as what Julian accomplishes on his ships? I can play around with that after some preliminary coats of paint.

    Just a few photos to show progress. Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Or, as I prefer, "Minions of Caesar."

    :D
    "Soldier-Slaves of Cain", for the Biblically-minded. >;)

    " o/~ But many a king on a first-class throne/
    If he wants to call his crown his own/
    Must somehow manage to get through/
    More dirty work than e'er I do! o/~ " ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    "Soldier-Slaves of Cain", for the Biblically-minded. >;)

    " o/~ But many a king on a first-class throne/
    If he wants to call his crown his own/
    Must somehow manage to get through/
    More dirty work than e'er I do! o/~ " ;)
    Get a room, you two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    I added gun ports and guns on the fourth deck and while they're pretty crude they'll look better when painted.
    It looks pretty good to me! What did you use for the guns? I'm going to try making a few models for the shore batteries, and I'm trying to figure out what to use for cannons. Whatever you used I think will look great with a little paint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    It looks pretty good to me! What did you use for the guns? I'm going to try making a few models for the shore batteries, and I'm trying to figure out what to use for cannons. Whatever you used I think will look great with a little paint.
    I got an assortment pack of plastic rods at the local gaming store. The company is Evergreen Scale Models. Here's a link to their website. I think many hobby and model shops carry their product lines, but depending on the size of the store, stock on hand may vary?

    http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/Shapes.htm#Round Tubing

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    Some preliminary painting and test shots of the hull. I think this will be a sharp looking ship once it's done. It certainly is easier to work on the sculpts without the masts getting in the way.

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    Hi Jim,
    Looking good. Is this a all over paint job? It looks like it! No decal's this time.
    Be safe
    Rory

  43. #43

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    Good job Jim !!!

  44. #44
    Admiral of the White
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Hi Jim,
    Looking good. Is this a all over paint job? It looks like it! No decal's this time.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Thanks Rory. Yes, this is going to be an overall paint job. All the existing decals were stripped with the alcohol. I wanted to see how 'off white' would look vs. something I have here that's even whiter (if you can believe it?). I wont be using any decals as far as I know, but I may use an ink pen for some of the window details?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoat View Post
    Good job Jim !!!
    Thanks!

  45. #45

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    It's coming along nicely Jim. What brand and type of paint are you using for the white?

  46. #46
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    Well done, Jim! It is looking good.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    It's coming along nicely Jim. What brand and type of paint are you using for the white?
    I use primarily Vallejo paints from their 'color' series, but I occasionally use Citadel, Lifecolor and Polly Scale railroad paints (I think the Polly Scale acrylic paints are no longer being produced by Testors?). Also I've picked up some Howard Hues paints that are sold locally at The Last Square? All acrylics, I don't like using enamel paints at all.

    http://www.lastsquare.com/zen-cart/i...ndex&cPath=381
    http://www.lastsquare.com/zen-cart/i...ndex&cPath=500
    http://www.lastsquare.com/zen-cart/i...ndex&cPath=373

    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Well done, Jim! It is looking good.
    Thank you!

  48. #48

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    So I assume you're using Vallejo Foundation White on the Pennsylvania.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    So I assume you're using Vallejo Foundation White on the Pennsylvania.
    Actually no, that's the white that was 'whiter than white'. I opted for their 'off white', which is still pretty bright. A wash of some kind may tone it down a bit?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/321317907421?lpid=82

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    Jim not being critical at all for I think you've done a great job but could you not plasticard over the depression between fore and main mast to level the deck and place a couple of boats on it? As it is in the black and whites you kindly put up.

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