So, the term "thread" is rather loosely defined in the Anchorage, meaning "anywhere the topic goes just run with it".
So, the term "thread" is rather loosely defined in the Anchorage, meaning "anywhere the topic goes just run with it".
Get used to drift... it's called "going with the current". LOL Eventually things find their way back to course, whether naturally or with a little tacking...
"Give it a chance, you'll get used to it... or have a Psychotic Episode."--Agent Zed, MIB
Meanwhile, back at the original topic...Arakus is doing what every fan of these types of games has ever done, fret over lack of new announcements or releases. Back in the day when talking about Steve Jackson games like Car Wars (Yes, I subscribed to their Quarterly and bought everything they released) the main gripe I had was waiting for months for the next cheesy "Amarillo Armadillo Arena" release. Ares is too busy making sure SOG will stay in production, much less release new stuff. What Ares doesn't understand, and all us old wargaming salts hanging around here know, is that we will keep SOG going long after the financial interests have cashed out and the creators have retired to their villas in Tuscany. Relax Arakus (say that real fast three times). Hey! I just said that three times perfectly! Um, what was I saying? Oh yeah, the Anchorage will be around long, long after Ares was sold to Hasbro.
I hope Keith shares your thoughtOriginally Posted by Kentop
The confirmation that there will be some Spanish ships soon is good news.
+1
Frankly, if Ares sells to Hasbro, bye-bye Anchorage, bye-bye WGF/S and bye-bye SGN. The only reason Forumini survives is that they were treating Axis & Allies Minis as Abandonware even while it was still in production, plus the sheer number of us who bolted from the craptastic "official forum"... the only things they'd keep would be the Tolkien licenses.
Frankly, despite the no-love-lost factor I'd think FFG would be a better merger partner--understands MINIATURES (as opposed to card) gaming, and better communication with the end-customers. (Mind you, this is coming from somebody who considers them RADIOACTIVE after how they Blue Falconed the Nexus/Ares team after Italeri pulled the plug... and I haven't bought a single Italeri modeling product since either.)
Sails of Glory produced under Hasbro:
Last edited by Coog; 09-26-2014 at 11:10.
You'd expect THAT high quality? LOL I think you overestimate them...
Those would be the high quality special edition versions :)
And I think it's safe to say whoever assembled some of the ships in that photo doesn't know a stempost from their sphincter...
They were just following the assembly instructions provided by Hasbro for their SOG products.
Sue and I are currently in Ohio with our Buckeye wingmen from the 'Drome to run some WoG games at the USAF Museum for a 100th anniversary of WWI event. Unfortunately, today, I am sitting at a B&B drowning in a work project, and just checked in for a momentary break. I read yesterday's and today's posts in this "thread", and all I can say is that I miss you guys. I won't be on much until Monday, and I feel the absence.
Kenneth, you do realize you are on a ship navigated by a bunch of drunken sailors? To remain on-topic is beyond our current capabilities.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Is that from the First Edition, where the Blue Player always wins? (Yes, I have that game; and yes, I figured out why they had to rewrite it for 2nd Edition.)Sails of Glory produced under Hasbro:
*And* I am also awaiting SJG to make good on _Car Wars 6th Edition_ -- altho' from what I know (and I know more than I can say here), they're on a short course to suiciding the property.
Hey, they may be crappy, but at least the packaging was good so that none of the masts were broken....
Something to be said for "soft" plastic and removable masts. >:)
Agreed - is it worse that the quote was from one of the game designers?
I see it as bleed over from GW games. Although I can see Andrea getting it from Ares' Lord of the Rings game.
Well, for some of us who came up in other game lines, it's hard to call "pirates," "mercenaries," fictitious East Asian uprisings and the Undead "nations" as the WhizzKids dweebs did. LOL
will we get santisima trinidad as a spanish ship?
As a big WAS player I don't even want to think about WOTC buying Ares like what has been said FFG would be a much better partner.
Oh, you mean "better partner" like how they said "you might as well sell to us 'cuz we're gonna rip off your game and reissue it under a new brand-name anyway if you don't"?
I'm sorry, I have ZERO tolerance for Buddy F-ers (IMO, they share the worst circle of Hell with oath-breakers and traitors), and while WOTC may be cutthroat, shortsighted and avaricious, they don't cross the line into Blue Falconry like FFG did.
I guess I meant more in quality of product then in treacherous business practices. I would worry that if a WOTC/Hasbro type took control the first business practice to happen would be to cut costs and quality and sales would decrease and the game would die. X-wing is very much a rip off of Wings of glory but it is at very least well done and shows some pretty good game design, with WAS I feel most of its best attributes happened by accident and weren't directly brought about by RB or WOTC moreso by accident.
But by no means do I approve of what FFG did.
Actually, the FFG ripoff, I'm not sure if it ever hit market, was not so much X-wing (though I personally consider it a rip-off, Andrea A. has said not-so-much and if he's at peace with it I'll follow his lead) but rather an allegation that they intended to do a Blue Max relaunch as a Wings of War clone.
And, it's not Set in Stone, but back in the Kickstarter's comments they did say they plan to do Santissima Trinidad as a Special Pack release. (Future SP's, though, depend on how well Victory and Constitution sell--so those of you whho didn't preorder with the KS better get to buyin' when they release! :) )
I preordered 4 additional copies of the Constitution and 1 of the Victory, which is on top of my 1 and 1 ship credit from the KS order. Is that good enough for now?
I do hope Ares ordered enough at the factory to fulfill all KS orders AND what I expect is going to be a pretty large demand for these two ships in the general SoG market?
With Santissima Trinidad, my sense is that the game designers/developers are pretty passionate about the game, and would like to do it a lot. But it may be a very hard ship to make the business case. There is (I believe) no other ship it could reasonably reprinted as (?). I could imagine myself buying two, but in general the market is limited to one per player, ever. And if it turns out some people aren't into the Spanish (?), the market is diminished further.
Victory and Constitution were total no-brainers by comparison, not just because of their fame and status as museum ships (and the US tie-in with the latter), but also because they had a lot more reuse potential--the Victory work (as I understand it) overlapped a lot with the wave-2 first-rates, and I'm sure we will see Constitution again as President and United States.
Of course none of us knows the financial stuff, so it's super hard to predict. Probably even Ares is only starting to get a handle on the market, since the KS made things a bit weird, and then the mast problems were a big setback. If V&C sell well, AND their price points hold up really well, AND the various planned Spanish ships get issued, AND they sell well too, then maybe Ares would be encouraged to take the plunge.
The fact that they are more of a "boutique" firm cuts both ways there. On the one hand the number of projects they can take on is limited. But on the other hand, they have a personal stake in the game, so if there's even a break-even business case, they might be willing to do it where a bigger company wouldn't see the return
Fred, while there are a number of design differences between the various ships of SGN108 and Victory, the 108 sculpt is you might say a "down-graded" version of the 201 Victory sculpt. Royal Sovereign-Ville de Paris-Hibernia were one clustered design group, the two 1745 Est 100's a second completely unrelated, and the three Umpires another--the commonality was "design to fit in this length x breadth space, this tonnage and this weapon distro across three decks and upperworks." Victory's closest direct relatives would be the 1810 pair of Boyne 98's, the Russian Ches'ma class and if memory serves the three Nelsons.
Constitution reuse, you could also add the 1814-launched USS Guerriere and USS Java (which both either just made or just missed the War of 1812), and IIRC the Russian 1820's Palladas were copied from HMS President (well after game-end, but might be a way to stroke the Commie Fanboys).
Hmm, that's interesting--you are right that Victory has a different model than Royal Sovereign, et al. I had assumed they would share most of the same parts, with maybe a bit or two added/modified on Victory. But it looks like most every part is different. So maybe they aren't counting on getting as much "reprint" mileage out of it as I had assumed...
Wouldn't that have to be Tsarist fanboys?
Fred, I mean the hull sculpts of 108 and 201 are based on the same 3d-model, while the historical designs were very different. On a technical standpoint, Victory is more like a Bellona on steroids and with a third gun-deck than she is either the "old" (1756) or "new" (1788) Royal Georges--both Victory and Bellona are variations on Pierre Morineau's 1744 L'Invincible taken by the RN in 1747.
True, but you know how I pathologically HAVE to tweak the Kremlin Kossack Kultist Komrades... :D
Stroke the Commie fanboys? With a ship built in 1820? The Russian Revolution happened almost one hundred years later. I don't think any commies have any affection for Tsar Alexander I's ships. For real commie fanboys, history started in 1917. I know whereof I speak, apologies to Wittgenstein.
.
I'm sure you didn't mean for that to come across as rude and insulting as it was
Equal Opportunity Offender, remember? I diss USN Homers too...
Early or late?
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
One of the great successes x-wing has is having each release come with various upgrade cards that other ships and factions (rebel,imperial) can use/need. While the model would have limited buy multiples appeal relevant cards that enhance the flavour and enjoyability of the game would certainly ensure that everyone buys one which may be enough. I am sure many of the wave 1 and 2 models are reprints of each other but I haven't bought all of them simply because as a "captain" level game there is no need for me to have an a huge personal fleet 3 of each 1,3,5 rate is more then enough and I am sure other people may do the same thing (though of course if you have the funds its awesome to have everything)
I can't quite remember but wasn't there a mention in one of there news posts how they were considering a Trinidad special release ala HMS victory and USS constitution.?
Last edited by Warspite; 12-07-2014 at 07:28.
If Ares has doubts about the economic feasibility of a special edition Santisima Trinidad wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to use Kickstarter to gauge actual interest and dollar input to create the sculpt, cards, etc.? The whole point of KS is to see if the general public has interest and cash to back up a project that might not ever see the light of day using traditional funding and production methods.
Ares is a small shop so it's difficult to manage a herd of IP's and Kickstarter projects, but I think the ST as a KS special edition might be a good fit. Right along with a special "Pirate Pack" expansion?
If you poke around on old threads, you will see me expressing surprise/mild-disappointment that Ares made so little effort to differentiate the ships--so as to give more gameplay options, and encourage people to buy more of them. I think most people on the boards disagreed with me. And it is true that that kind of thing does almost inevitably run counter to strict historicity (even if it could add historical flavor), and taken too far can seem exploitative. At any rate, the way Ares has designed the game appears to have left them little room for action on this now.
You are right that if/when they do S.T. it will be in a special pack format like V&C. Thus it will include a couple of distinct configurations, and some captain cards. These cards will add to its overall appeal, but I don't imagine that they would be intended for transfer to another ship, nor provide any additional purchase rationale ...
Good point, that might make a lot of sense.
Good idea Jim. Sounds like the Santisima Trinidad and a pirate ship would be a perfect time for Ares to start a KS (or not) and come out with their first twin pack only available as a set. If that doesn't go well they could sell them separately at a later date.
My thinking being, it might introduce pirate only players to Napoleonics, and visa versa.
Last edited by Gunner; 12-07-2014 at 10:50.
Santissima Trinidad and a pirate ship as a twin pack set?
Why?
I thought I answered that with the last sentence.
I wonder how Ares feels about the effectiveness of using the KS model for SGN at this point. It would be interesting to get the inside scoop...
Well, if I could have a say I would do the Santisima Trinidad all by herself as a KS project.
If Ares would ever go the twin pack route (seems unlikely) I'd think they'd want at least one of those sculpts to be of use in other reprint/editions. In that case I'd suggest the Santa Ana (another Trafalgar veteran) if they want to stick with 1st rates. Otherwise I'd go with two Spanish SoL's to match up with the Wave 1 reprints we'll be seeing soon.
As for the Pirates I still think that's a KS to be done all on it's own, whether or not they want to stick with historical versions or a fantasy version akin to the Black Pearl and Captain Jack. The problem here is the time frame and also what Fred has pointed out in other posts (the limited range of any new ship variations due to the initial design parameters).
Between the two Pirates is going to be more appealing to a larger gamer base and more likely to sell well in the market.
Last edited by Nightmoss; 12-07-2014 at 23:44. Reason: typo
No matter how they do it, I'd like to have the Santisima Trinidad in my hands by early third quarter (wishful thinking) of 15.
Ah, in that case I doubt it. Napoleonic players are going to want a useful ship if they are saddled with a "twofer", a pirate might be OK if it came with stats for a standard merchie, but there would also be the annoyance that if you wanted more than one merchie you'd be stuck with an excess 4 decker.
And anyone wanting to get into pirates is going to have the same problem. Only one ship.
TBH if Ares was going for a pirate based game I'd (a) set it in a Hollywood setting - and be very open about it and (b) up the scale to 1/600
There are several options for pirate ships. If Ares produced a square rigger with no flag, it could be used as a generic merchant ship on one side of the card and be a pirate on the other side. There could be North African Xebecs or galleys as pirate ships or Far Eastern Junks as pirate ships.
Remember the thread many months ago asking for suggestions for merchant/pirate ships that was run with a view to Ares producing the most popular suggestions? I wonder what happened to the results of that?
I see your points. I definitely think any pirate offering should not conform to history, and should be honest about it.
But I would also imagine Ares might have a strong preference toward trying to maintain some kind of interoperability with SGN. At a minimum, I'd be surprised by a scale change. If the molds are a huge part of the fixed costs in producing these games, then I'd think they'd want to reuse the existing molds to act as the navy ships that are inevitably sent to fight the pirates, and to reuse merchants ships across both lines, etc.
Beyond the scale compatibility, I wonder if a good, non-historically-bounded, swashbuckling pirate bolt-on could be designed, which still allowed the ships to participate in SGN battles (and vice-versa).
We already have a sort-of "pirate" released... 1779 Thorn was a privateer, and the biggest difference between a licensed privateer and a pirate was whether the opposing nation was inclined to recognize the legitimacy of your license or not. (Remember, to a lot of Brits even WITH his Continental Navy commission and the fact that he RETURNED some property some of the men under his command had seized in a shore raid with apologies John Paul Jones was STILL a "pirate"?)
I agree any Pirate offerings should be separate. The differing scale brings up a couple of issues. As Fred noted you have the economics and interoperability with SGN ships, but OTH if you are sticking with historical pirates you are looking mostly at smaller ships anyway, sloops and schooners, etc. which is problematic with the current scale as we've seen.
Or you stick with Hollywood pirates such as the conversions done by Jim and others. Then you could have a whole pirate "faction"That would help bring over the pirate only crowd to SGN. See what FFG just did with X-Wing, now they have a separate mercenary "faction" if you will (called "Scum and Villains" or some such name).*
*Disclaimer: I am in no way advocating bringing the "faction" concept into a historical game, but I have seen it help bring over non-historical gamers.
I would prefer some ahistorical and visually catching pirate ships. I can easily see capturing folks at our FLGS, especially younger crowds. I believe, too, that once they are comfortable with the mechanics, and one or two games with non-advanced rules is sufficient, they would be more open to historically oriented scenarios, especially when accompanied by a brief briefing.
I would guess any dual packs would pit compatible ships with each other, similarly to the WoG dual packs - maybe calling them duel packs.
I wonder how many original KS folks who are still active with the game would support any form of SoG KS given their experience with the initial one.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
The duel pack is an interesting and, I think, very credible approach. How about something like this?
Given that most pirate ships were converted merchants or privateers akin to small warships Ares could produce a sculpt of a merchant and one of a brig or similar small warship and then produce two duel packs, one in which the merchant is a merchant and the brig themed as a pirate, the second where the merchant is themed as a pirate and the brig is a regular navy ship. For more variety a second version of this pack with the merchant in a different scheme as another pirate and the brig with a different scheme and ensign for another country. Possibly even sold with stripped down "starter" rules akin to the WGF starter sets
Even more variety if the brig and merchant are available in yet more schemes / nationalities as individual models later.
I hope Ares reads Eric's "duel pack" packaging and Dave's use of various merchants as pirate VS pirate or frigate ideas. I'm not much on Pirates but, their ideas put together would be the worm on the hook for me.
I think such an idea has true merit. Such a duel pack could introduce the game to general gamers by using a theme more familiar, as well as add to the collections of already-vested players. I, for one, would pick them up without question. Additionally, the lower price point would be far more accessible and attractive to potential players.
I think it is important to remember that not everyone who comes to an SoG table is a war-gamer. I truly believe, though, that once players become familiar with the game's mechanism, they would be far more open to historically oriented engagements. Your idea, David, would not have to deviate from history unless the pirate ships are painted in more popular, read Hollywood, styles. As someone with limited modeling skills, I would not be opposed to having a few pre-painted versions of such ships, recognizing their value in attracting players, especially younger players with more active imaginations.
A week ago, I pointed out the WoG dual pack to someone asking about the games at our FLGS. He thought the price was excellent for the value he would be getting, especially for a game he was unsure about. I, purposely, strayed away from showing him the SoG starter set due to price. Once he is hooked with Ares' mechanism, then the current starter is more probable. If there was a similar dual pack for SoG, I would have shown him the options knowing he could purchase both for less than the current SoG starter.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
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