Much to less informations from Ares!

[Nightmoss]

I rather like the idea of a dual package approach and we've certainly been asking Ares to consider doing merchant ships for as long as I've been hanging around the Anchorage.

If you include a merchant ship with a pirate ship approximating an historical pirate counterpart I'm just not sure the scale, detail and color schemes will appeal enough to the non AoS crowd? I'm pretty certain any dual pack like this would be a sure thing for me, but I'm not the general public, and what will move to the average buyer has to be the main consideration for Ares. Of course smaller ships will mean less entry cost and a better chance of bringing in new players if the dual pack could contain some basic game approach and still have enough 'flash' to catch one's eye.

[fredmiracle]

If you include a merchant ship with a pirate ship approximating an historical pirate counterpart I'm just not sure the scale, detail and color schemes will appeal enough to the non AoS crowd? I'm pretty certain any dual pack like this would be a sure thing for me, but I'm not the general public, and what will move to the average buyer has to be the main consideration for Ares. Of course smaller ships will mean less entry cost and a better chance of bringing in new players if the dual pack could contain some basic game approach and still have enough 'flash' to catch one's eye.

I tend to agree. To sell you'd want 2 ships akin to the Concorde or Hebe frigates, reasonably well matched, one with lots of black and huge skull/crossbones, and one with lots of gilt paint and bright colors to be the "guv'nors flagship" or some such

[7eat51]

I can easily see multiple dual packs, one as you mention, Fred, and others that are more traditional. Two evenly matched historical SoLs, for example, could appeal to war-gamers while still being something already-in players could want. I bought many of the WoG dual packs for repaints, gifts, etc. If Ares is going to print 12 ships in a wave, why not take two of the schemes and package them in a dual pack like they did in WoG? If the dual pack had different schemes, then the wave would effectively be 14 ships. Again, I would buy to have the additional schemes. Such a low cost of entry for potential recruits seems a no-brainer to me. I might be missing something here, but I am not sure what it is.

[Naharaht]

Dual packs might have more appeal if they represented famous ship duels such as H.M.S. Shannon vs the U.S.S. Chesapeake or the Bonhomme Richard vs H.M.S. Serapis.

[Diamondback]

Here's the problem... I thought about that too, but the rub is Ares would want DP's to also be regular-run ships and there just Ain't No Chance in HELL that there's enough that you can torture a Chesapeake sculpt into coming up with six names across three packs. The closest you get is FIVE maybe, and that's IF the Humphreys 38's and Philadelphia are close-enough to share the sculpt. (Get over the myth of Chesapeake as a 44 Right Now--she only ever really was in the same class as the Humphreys 44's on paper, and size-wise is pretty close to Philadelphia and the other 38s.)

BHR, similar--while there were a number of 900- to 1200-ton French East Indiamen designed by Antoine Groignard that are very close relatives, with not exactly having another US-flag version (I'm looking into other French two-deckers and thought I saw another transferred to fly the Stars and Stripes, but I'm not sure) available for a Side B that basically means she's gonig to have to be a Special Pack like Victory. IF the Special Pack line sells well enough to continue it, that is...

Now MAYBE if they were to expand further to a line of special Scenario Packs, something like Balloon Busters or what they've partially done with the WGS Viermots... two ships and a booklet about their historical engagement and how to set it up, along with some suggested What-If divergences... THEN you might be able to get away with limited-use sculpts a little more. The rub is, SP's would have to sell REALLY well to consider taking the idea that much further...

[David Manley]

The comparison with the WGF balloon models is an interesting one. I think the speed with which Ares have got those back into production could be a pointer towards their views on "specials"

[Diamondback]

We know that the balloons themselves are planned to be back in '15 By Popular Demand--but we don't know if the rest of the Balloon Busters pack around them will be returning too, other than that my money's on the Nieuport 11 reusing the N16 sculpt with separately-applied rockets.

[Nightmoss]

So the bottom line is Ares isn't going to consider dual packs or special edition ships unless they're totally convinced of substantial profit over the cost and a guaranteed demand for the sculpts forever more? Doesn't sound very promising anyway you look at it.

[Diamondback]

Not my read at all, Jim, it's more of a "wait and see"--it sounds like they considered Balloon Busters a commercial flop, and are taking the SGN Specials as a "wait and see based on how the Sales numbers break on V&C." We know they WANT to do Santissima Trinidad and have it penciled in for long-term dev, but we also know that a one-off with no Pass-Fors has to be a Special Pack to get made at all.

[Nightmoss]

Not my read at all, Jim, it's more of a "wait and see"--it sounds like they considered Balloon Busters a commercial flop, and are taking the SGN Specials as a "wait and see based on how the Sales numbers break on V&C." We know they WANT to do Santissima Trinidad and have it penciled in for long-term dev, but we also know that a one-off with no Pass-Fors has to be a Special Pack to get made at all.

Well, I have my own Santisima Trinidad.

I just need to know how Ares will rate and rank it statistically (log, ship card and maneuver deck).

[David Manley]

Well, I have my own Santisima Trinidad.....

Yes, just think how many proxy ships of all shapes and sizes you all could have had for SGN whilst waiting for official minis if they'd stuck to 1/1200......

[Gunner]

I just need to know how Ares will rate and rank it statistically (log, ship card and maneuver deck).

That is a great question.

DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that they're ashamed to share?.

[fredmiracle]

DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that their ashamed to share?.

I don't have the impression they've ever felt any value in sharing. And more to the point, I doubt there even really is a "system" as-such. For one thing the game doesn't have that much room for subtle distinctions, and for another thing it's pretty abstract--i.e. much more game than simulation. I think Ares' just picks numbers that "feel right" to them, and fit in relative to the other units.

The strongest indication of this may be the subtle variations between units of the same class. which usually take the form of 1 gunnery factor or musket factor, here and there, with little evident rhyme or reason. There is no system that would generate those kind of quasi-random fluctuations...

[Coog]

That is a great question.

DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that their ashamed to share?.

Yes there is a system.

[Gunner]

Yes there is a system.

Ha, ha. At least he's on the sheet.

[Diamondback]

I don't think Ares has one beyond "T-LAR", but I think David came up with a very good system for an "SGN 2.0," which I've provisionally adopted--pending his blessing--for my Indian Ocean Campaign I'm writing. I have some minor reservations about how it handles oddities like the Humphreys superfrigates, but I'm sure workarounds for those can be quickly and easily developed.

[David Manley]

Consider your proposal blessed

I often find that rigid game stat design systems have occasional problems with outliers and oddities so I'm usually content to use the system as a starter and then tweak around the edges to get the right feel.

[RotS-Targe]

A little late for the party, but anyways.
For the duel packs, I think it would be a great way to introduce the game to people at a reasonable price.
It reminds me of (and I know this is a touchy comparison for some) the old WizKids Pirates games. (for those who don't like this, let me explain) One of the things they advertised was that you only needed one pack to have everything you needed to play. In every pack was two ships, the rules, a tiny die, the cards were measuring devices.
Yes, there was a big price difference etween a pack of pirates and a single ship
With the complexity of SOG, you would likely need a simplified ruleset, maybe have the range sticks come in two parts. Or maybe have the rulebook just have the basic rules and two scenarios, one that's a basic duel, and one that pertains to the ships you get, the historical duel. And then have it say "for more advanced rules, get the starter pack!"
For those who liked the game, they can get the starter pack with more confidence, making the price be less of an issue.

[Nightmoss]

A little late for the party, but anyways.
For the duel packs, I think it would be a great way to introduce the game to people at a reasonable price.
It reminds me of (and I know this is a touchy comparison for some) the old WizKids Pirates games. (for those who don't like this, let me explain) One of the things they advertised was that you only needed one pack to have everything you needed to play. In every pack was two ships, the rules, a tiny die, the cards were measuring devices.
Yes, there was a big price difference etween a pack of pirates and a single ship
With the complexity of SOG, you would likely need a simplified ruleset, maybe have the range sticks come in two parts. Or maybe have the rulebook just have the basic rules and two scenarios, one that's a basic duel, and one that pertains to the ships you get, the historical duel. And then have it say "for more advanced rules, get the starter pack!"
For those who liked the game, they can get the starter pack with more confidence, making the price be less of an issue.

^ +1 I'd certainly buy into something like this. While I might be more on the fanatical side of SoG support I think the general gaming public would get into this approach very easily.

[7eat51]

We know that the balloons themselves are planned to be back in '15 By Popular Demand--but we don't know if the rest of the Balloon Busters pack around them will be returning too, other than that my money's on the Nieuport 11 reusing the N16 sculpt with separately-applied rockets.

I have some Balloon Busters and a bunch of extra planes I need to list. I am getting tired of seeing them sitting on shelves - same with some wargames. I am just not inclined to send single plane packages around the world, so I have been holding off. I am starting to trade games on BGG which has been pretty cool. My trading partners and I are improving our collections while seeing greater potential for games to hit the table.