The United States Navy 1797

[Coog]

While reading Charles' (CSherrange) After Action Report, I thought he had a good idea for players wanting to use American ships. Substitute existing ship models for them. I would like to play the United States Navy but I never cared much for playing the odd collection of ships that made up the Continental Navy and none of the existing Ares models work well for the War of 1812 United States Navy. But using exsisting models for the period around the real beginnings of the United States Navy in 1797 could work reasonably well for a number of ships until a variety of American ship models become available.

I had originally thought to make this a single post discussing all the American ships of the period, but found there was much too much information to reasonably have an orderly discussion. Therefore, I'll be posting ships by types, for discussion as follows:

Sloops
Light Frigates
Medium Frigates

Since there will be a model for the heavy American frigates, hopefully soon, no discussion is necessary.

Data comparing the actual ships and the models to be used as substitutes will also be discussed. While in most cases the substitute models and their game statistics will not be perfect, they should be close enough to allow players to use the models, keeping their game statistics or slightly modifying them. Some players may wish to do some minor repainting. Perhaps some of our more talented members will produce ship cards to be used for the American ships.

A post on sloops will be coming shortly.

[Diamondback]

Best source will be Routledge's The Sailing Navy, probably.

[7eat51]

Bobby, will you be looking at two-deckers like the Bonhomme Richard - basically, converted Indiaman - a bit more than frigates, but smaller than SoLs?

[Coog]

Best source will be Routledge's The Sailing Navy, probably.

I'll be using Chapelle's The American Sailing Navy for United States ships. It is a very detailed book with a lot work put into by the author. I don't have much on the ships used for Ares models and will mostly be using Wikipedia for them. Of course we are only talking about one sloop and three frigate models. If you or anyone else sees a significant problem with the data I use for them, please bring it to my attention.

[Coog]

Bobby, will you be looking at two-deckers like the Bonhomme Richard - basically, converted Indiaman - a bit more than frigates, but smaller than SoLs?

I'm only looking at the ships used from 1797 to about 1805, nothing from the American Revolution.

[Coog]

Sloops


Ares Model:

Thorn
Rated: 14 guns
Weight: 300 tons
Length: 96' 7" gun deck, 78' 10" keel
Beam: 26' 9"
Armament: 16 x 6-pounders


United States Ships:

USS Delaware
Commissioned: May 1798
Rated: 20 guns
Weight: 321 tons
Length: 94' 9"
Beam: 28' 0"
Armament: 16 x 9-pounders, 4 x 6-pounders

USS Maryland
Commissioned: August 1799
Rated: 20 guns
Weight: 380 tons
Length: 87' 0" keel
Beam: 29' 0"
Armament: 20 x 9-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders

USS Patapsco
Commissioned: August 1799
Rated: 20 guns
Weight: 380 tons
Length: 87' 0" keel
Beam: 29' 0"
Armament: 20 x 9-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders


Comments on model appearance:

Delaware, Maryland, and Patapsco are quarterdeck ship-sloops giving them the same general appearance as Thorn. Delaware is approximately the same size as Thorn while Maryland and Patapsco are larger, but are close enough in size to Thorn to make Thorn a decent substitute for our purposes. Also of interest is that the model of the Thorn appears to be pierced for 9 guns on each side of the gun deck, making it even closer in appearance to the American ships. Thorn's color works fairly well for an American ship.


Comments on game statistics:

At first I was bit concerned about the American ships having larger and more guns than Thorn and that they may should have more firepower than the 1-2-1 undamaged rating of Thorn. But when you see that some 32-gun frigates have a 2-3-2 undamaged rating, increasing the ratings for the American ships would be way out of proportion and should be left the same as Thorn. As far as any other changes to other ratings, such as hull damage, I feel that they also should be left the same.

[Diamondback]

Bobby, my suggestion for a 14 as a 20 would be to maybe slow down the "rate of decay" a little--more guns to start with means you can keep firing more of 'em longer as you take damage. Maybe slide the point where guns start to deteriorate one box right on the track?

[DeRuyter]

I'll be using Chapelle's The American Sailing Navy for United States ships. It is a very detailed book with a lot work put into by the author. I don't have much on the ships used for Ares models and will mostly be using Wikipedia for them. Of course we are only talking about one sloop and three frigate models. If you or anyone else sees a significant problem with the data I use for them, please bring it to my attention.

Great reference and a classic work. Lots of detailed sail plans.

[Coog]

Bobby, my suggestion for a 14 as a 20 would be to maybe slow down the "rate of decay" a little--more guns to start with means you can keep firing more of 'em longer as you take damage. Maybe slide the point where guns start to deteriorate one box right on the track?

In a way I did that. I specifically chose Thorn instead of the Amazon class in general as in the 3rd damage box it remains a 1-2-1 while the others drop to 1-1-1. I don't know if it was misprint, but it helps me out in this case.

[Diamondback]

It seems deliberate--early Swans were 14-gun, but starting from 1780 they carried two more main guns (though without any extra crew for 'em) and from 1794 they traded those POS 1/2# swivels with carronades.

[Coog]

Light Frigates

Ares Model:

HMS Terpsichore
Rated: 32 guns
Weight: 682 tons
Length: 126' 0"
Beam: 35' 1"
Armament: 26 x 12-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders, 6 x 18-pound carronades

United States Ships:

USS General Greene
Commissioned: January 1799
Rated: 28 guns
Weight: 654 tons
Length: 124' 3"
Beam: 34' 8"
Armament: 24 x 12-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders

USS Boston
Commissioned: May 1799
Rated: 28 guns
Weight: 700 tons
Length: 134' 0"
Beam: 34' 0"
Armament: 24 x 12-pounders, 12 x 9-pounders

Comments on model appearance:

Both ships match up well with Terpsichore, General Greene being a bit smaller and Boston a bit bigger. Terpsichore's solid black hull is closest of the Amazons to the color of American ships only lacking a stripe.


Comments on game statistics:

The ratings for Terpsichore appear that they would adequitely represent those of the American ships based on their armament and size.


Ares Model:

HMS Concorde
Rated: 32 guns
Weight: 888 tons
Length: 142' 11"
Beam: 37' 6"
Armament: 26 x 12-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders, 8 x 24-pound carronades


United States Ship

USS Essex
Rated: 32 guns
Commissioned: December 1799
Weight: 850 tons
Length: 141' 9"
Beam: 37' 0"
Armament: 26 x 12-pounders, 10 x 6-pounders

Comments on appearance:

Concorde matches Essex very well in size. The color of Concorde is a close match to Essex.


Comments on game statistics:

Concorde and Essex have the same number and type of main guns. The forecastle and quarterdeck guns vary somewhat in type and number but with the main batteries matching exactly, Concorde's firepower ratings should represent Essex well enough. With both ships being so close in size, Concorde's other ratings should also represent those of Essex.

[7eat51]

Bobby, would you like color plates or paintings of the American ships? Creating such a gallery could help those who want to do repaints. If you want an associated gallery, we can create a closed thread in which you could assemble each ship's data - like you're doing here - accompanied by the picture. This current, open thread could be used for discussions, a place where we can post our findings, etc. The nice thing about a closed thread is that it only contains your information - no need to scroll through to find new input.

[CSherrange]

That's the way I figured it as well, which is why I used those sculpts for the American vessels. Looking forward to further U.S. ships however.

[Coog]

Bobby, would you like color plates or paintings of the American ships? Creating such a gallery could help those who want to do repaints. If you want an associated gallery, we can create a closed thread in which you could assemble each ship's data - like you're doing here - accompanied by the picture. This current, open thread could be used for discussions, a place where we can post our findings, etc. The nice thing about a closed thread is that it only contains your information - no need to scroll through to find new input.

Good pictures of several of these ships may be hard to find. As far as repaints go, I also tried to match the model as close as possible to the appearance of an American ship so that only some minor repainting would help along with some reflagging. American ships of that period would have black hulls and I believe a yellow stripe like the British. Later a white stripe was used. At the end of the post I can edit the first post and add a list that I already have completed. Here is a good picture of Boston in 1799:

[Diamondback]

Bobby, I've heard the early stripe described as "buff", a kind of yellowish-tan shade.

[7eat51]

Good picture, Bobby. That will provide enough of an idea, I believe.

If you desire any help with editing the thread, let me know.

[Coog]

Medium Frigates

Ares Model:

HMS Sybille
Rate: 38 guns
Weight: 1090 tons
Length: 154' 3"
Beam: 40' 0"
Armament: 28 x 18-pounders, 4 x 9-pounders, 12 x 32-pound carronades


United States Ship:

USS New York
Commissioned: October 1800
Rate: 36 guns
Weight: 1130 tons
Lenght: 144' 2"
Beam: 37' 0"
Armament: 26 x 18-pounders, 14 x 32-pound carronades

USS Philadelphia
Commissioned: April 1800
Rate: 38 guns
Weight: 1240 tons
Lenght: 157' 2"
Beam: 39' 0"
Armament: 26 x 18-pounders, 16 x 32-pound carronades

USS Chesapeake
Commissioned: May 1800
Rate: 38 guns
Weight: 1244 tons
Lenght: 152' 6"
Beam: 40' 11"
Armament: 28 x 18-pounders, 20 x 32-pound carronades

USS Constellation
Commissioned: September 1797
Rate: 38 guns
Weight: 1278 tons
Lenght: 164' 0"
Beam: 40' 6"
Armament: (1) 28 x 24-pounders, 10 x 12-pounders
(2) 28 x 18-pounders, 10 x 24-pound carronades
(3) 28 x 18-pounders, 20 x 32-pound carronades

USS Congress
Commissioned: August 1799
Rate: 38 guns
Weight: 1278 tons
Lenght: 164' 0"
Beam: 40' 6"
Armament: (1) 28 x 18-pounders, 12 x 9-pounders
(2) 28 x 18-pounders, 20 x 32-pound carronades


Comments on model appearance:

New York is bit smaller than Sybille but not by much. Philadelphia and Chesapeake are a bit larger but still close. I had to think a bit about including Sybille as a substitute for Constellation and Congress. My first inclination was not to include them. However, looking at the dimensions for the ships, they were not that far apart compared to other substitutions made thus far. But the one thing that influenced me the most was comparing 1/1200 scale models of a Leda class frigate, Constellation, and Constitution. Looking at the Leda, which was a British copy of the Hebe-class, and Constellation on the table, they appear almost identical. Only when you hold them next to each other side by side you notice that Constellation appears just a bit longer. On the other hand, when you look at Constellation on the table with Constitution, Constitution stands out as being much larger. Therefore I included them. The model color is also close to that of the American frigates.


Comments on game statistics:

Sybille was is a bit better armed than New York but quite close to being the same. Philadelphia and Chesapeake are quite similar to Sybille in armament. Constellation and Congress in their final armaments are also quite similar to Sybille. However, Constellation initially carried different armament that would not make her compatable with Sybille. Constellation was initially equipped with 24-pounders on her gundeck, instead of 18-pounders, making her far more powerful than Sybille. When re-equipped with 18-pounders, she also had her 10 spar deck 12-pounders replaced with only 10 24-pound carronades. Eventually her carronades were brought up to typical numbers and size on 18-pounder frigates. Congress on her first cruise had only 12 9-pounders on her spar deck but was then re-equipped with 32-pounder carronades as with other American 18-pounder frigates. Sybille, being rearmed after capture by the British, is a closer match than the other Hebe-class frigates as a substitute as British and American ships were using similar armaments during this period. Looking at the other statistics for the ships, British 18-pounder frigates were not that far different from American frigates, at least in game terms, to use as substitutes for the 18-pounder American frigates.

[Coog]

Here is a list of United States Navy ships and the Ares models to use as a substitute. Keep in mind these are not perfect matches. However, I do believe they are close enough for use to provide a little variety and a change from mostly French and British engagements. I have included the heavy frigates for which I hope we soon have.

Ships for the United States Navy 1797 -1801

United States Ship.....................Ares Model

USS Delaware 20......................Thorn
USS Maryland 20......................Thorn
USS Patapsco 20......................Thorn
USS General Greene 28.............HMS Terpsichore
USS Boston 28.........................HMS Terpsichore
USS Essex 32...........................HMS Concorde
USS New York 36......................HMS Sybille
USS Philadelphia 38..................HMS Sybille
USS Chesapeake 38..................HMS Sybille
USS Constellation 38.................HMS Sybille
USS Congress 38......................HMS Sybille
USS Constitution 44..................USS Constitution
USS United States 44................USS Constitution
USS President 44......................USS Constitution

[csadn]

I think there's a message in having all those carronades, but I'm not sure what it is....

[Diamondback]

Hmmm... maybe clubbing Ares over the head about something to add to the game? *raises eyebrow* LOL

[Coog]

I think Ares has already factored carronades into the game. The ship log of HMS Sybille indicates it is Sybille as she was 1799...the year she replaced 12 9-pounders on the FC and QD with 12 32-pound carronades. Compare that with the numbers on the ship log of Sibylle while in French service when she had 8 8-pounders on the FC and QD.

[7eat51]

I think Ares has already factored carronades into the game. The ship log of HMS Sybille indicates it is Sybille as she was 1799...the year she replaced 12 9-pounders on the FC and QD with 12 32-pound carronades. Compare that with the numbers on the ship log of Sibylle while in French service when she had 8 8-pounders on the FC and QD.

Nice catch. This can provide a guide for modifying stats when converting ships.

[Nightmoss]

Would these two cards be close enough for an acceptable HMS Sybille to USS Philadelphia substitution? I'm not a photoshop or graphics programer pro. I'm more interested in the data being accurate. Thanks!

[Coog]

They both look great. Excellent job!

[Nightmoss]

Here are the rest of the medium frigates if anyone would want them? Cheers!






Redid the font on the Philadelphia to be a little cleaner.

[Coog]

Thanks for doing these. It will help add some variety to the game.

[Nightmoss]

Here's a question? If I set up a solo battle using one of the Ares models for the USS Constellation (HMS Sybille), is there a comparable ship that could be used as the French ship L'Insurgente? I want to start adding in some of the standard and advanced rules and the Constellation vs. L'Insurgente in the Quasi War might be a good match up. I just don't know which ship in their line up might work best?

For that matter which, if any, ship model could be used as the USS Insurgent once she joined the US Navy? Thanks!

[Diamondback]

Re Thorn, it's worth noting that at her peak she was outfitted as an 18-gun--we don't know which outfitting her stats are for.

Have to get back to you re Insurgente... right now, I have little confidence in any existing model for her.

[fredmiracle]

Here's a question? If I set up a solo battle using one of the Ares models for the USS Constellation (HMS Sybille), is there a comparable ship that could be used as the French ship L'Insurgente?

If you believe Wikipedia, she appears to look a lot like the Concorde frigates, statistically-speaking. A tad bigger and a few more guns, but definitely closer to Courageuse than Sybille.

Again according to Wiki, the US upgunned her to 18 pounders, so the armament would start to approximate Carmagnole, but still on a smaller hull. I'd probably represent the US version with HMS Concorde (and if you feel like it, grant a 4 center-arc broadside for the first two hull boxes).

[Coog]

I would use the Courageuse model and stats for L'Insurgente.

Courageuse

Weight: 550 tons
Length: 145'
Beam: 39'
Armament: 26 x 12-pounders, 6 x 6-pounders


L' Insurgente 1798

Weight: 600 tons
Length: 148'
Beam: 37' 5"
Armament: 2 x 18-pounders, 24 x-12 pounders, 8 x 6-pounders, 2 x 24-pound carronades, 4 x 36-pound howitzers

L'Insurgente was definitely a 32 gun frigate in size and main armament, 12-pounders. L'Insurgente appears to be more heavily armed than Courageuse, but the ship log for Courageuse has it slightly more powerful than and not as maneuverable as some other French 32 gun frigates in the game. My data source for Courageuse came from Wikipedia so Ares probably obtained its data from another source which showed her to have had additional guns like L'Insurgente.


As for the USS Insurgent, she appears to have been over gunned and crewed for her size, a typical practice of the Americans. She was rearmed with 26 x 18-pounders, 10 x 12-pounders, and retained the 4 36-pound howitzers. I would use the HMS Concorde model, as with Essex, but would use the log from Proserpine which was armed with 28 x 18-pounders, 12 x 9-pounders, and 4 36-pound howitzers.

[Nightmoss]

Cool! Thanks all for the quick responses. This should be fun!

[Coog]

The only problem with using Sybille for Constellation in the engagement between her and L'Insurgente, is that she was armed far differently at that time. She carried 24-pounders and 12-pounders instead of 18-pounders and carronades later like Sybille. See post #17.

[Coog]

Re Thorn, it's worth noting that at her peak she was outfitted as an 18-gun--we don't know which outfitting her stats are for.

With the guns being only 6-pounders and the low numbers used for firepower stats, it probably doesn't matter that much.

[Coog]

A good matchup would be USS Constellation against La Vengeance. Constellation was armed with 28 x 18-pounders and 10 24-pound carronades at the time, making HMS Sybille a good substitute. One of the French Hebe-class frigates can be used for La Vengeance.

[Nightmoss]

The only problem with using Sybille for Constellation in the engagement between her and L'Insurgente, is that she was armed far differently at that time. She carried 24-pounders and 12-pounders instead of 18-pounders and carronades later like Sybille. See post #17.

Yes, I remember that post, which means there is no good match for the earlier version of the Constellation within the current sculpts?

Following up on your next post you think the Constellation/Sybille vs. La Vengeance/Proserpine or Dryade would be good then?

[Diamondback]

Let me remind you, gentlemen, that statistical models and physical models are two very different components... a released model may look sorta similar but not be a good stats fit, or may stat similar but not be cosmetically right.

House Rules play is one thing, but if Ares were proposing to use any of these as reprints I can tell you that they would be doing so over my protests, and probably after my removal from the advisory team.

Not denouncing or criticizing, just trying to be the Voice of Caution. :)

[Coog]

Yes, I remember that post, which means there is no good match for the earlier version of the Constellation within the current sculpts?

Following up on your next post you think the Constellation/Sybille vs. La Vengeance/Proserpine or Dryade would be good then?

When Constitution is released we can see how a 24-pounder frigate is represented. The log for the weakest version of her might be used if not too powerful.

I think it would be a good match. Sybille is a bit better than her French sisters when you look at the stats, but just a slight bit of luck could give the French a victory.

[Coog]

Let me remind you, gentlemen, that statistical models and physical models are two very different components... a released model may look sorta similar but not be a good stats fit, or may stat similar but not be cosmetically right.

House Rules play is one thing, but if Ares were proposing to use any of these as reprints I can tell you that they would be doing so over my protests, and probably after my removal from the advisory team.

Not denouncing or criticizing, just trying to be the Voice of Caution. :)

Right now it is not trying to get an exact match for these ships for reprints. It is just finding something that is similar enough to give some variety that the game does not currently provide and will not provide for quite a while.

[Nightmoss]

Let me remind you, gentlemen, that statistical models and physical models are two very different components... a released model may look sorta similar but not be a good stats fit, or may stat similar but not be cosmetically right.

House Rules play is one thing, but if Ares were proposing to use any of these as reprints I can tell you that they would be doing so over my protests, and probably after my removal from the advisory team.

Not denouncing or criticizing, just trying to be the Voice of Caution. :)

I know. I just want to do some fighting that isn't limited to French vs. British. Some 'what if's', if you will.

Right now it is not trying to get an exact match for these ships for reprints. It is just finding something that is similar enough to give some variety that the game does not currently provide and will not provide for quite a while.

Agreed. Variety is the spice of life, or so I've heard.

[Diamondback]

Right--I understand the frustration and the desire for more than just More of Same Old Anglo-French Squabbles, agree with it myself, I just wanted to put a Cautionary Note up For The Record in case anyone from Ares looks here for ideas. :)

Since my name has been attached to their product, that means the quality of their product reflects on the quality of MY work, and trying to hold them to a high standard is a matter of Self Preservation... well, at least of preserving my reputation, which your career lives or dies by when you're a freelancer.

EDIT: Woohoo! Two more and all I need for the 3yr/1500-post medal is Time In Grade... :D

[Nightmoss]

Right--I understand the frustration and the desire for more than just More of Same Old Anglo-French Squabbles, agree with it myself, I just wanted to put a Cautionary Note up For The Record in case anyone from Ares looks here for ideas. :)

Since my name has been attached to their product, that means the quality of their product reflects on the quality of MY work, and trying to hold them to a high standard is a matter of Self Preservation... well, at least of preserving my reputation, which your career lives or dies by when you're a freelancer.

EDIT: Woohoo! Two more and all I need for the 3yr/1500-post medal is Time In Grade... :D

Understood. These variations on a theme aren't canon (pun sort of intended), but folks here are always lloking beyond the box. I think that's good.

Now, go post two more messages real quick!

[fredmiracle]

The only problem with using Sybille for Constellation in the engagement between her and L'Insurgente, is that she was armed far differently at that time. She carried 24-pounders and 12-pounders instead of 18-pounders and carronades later like Sybille. See post #17.

To play devil's advocate, though, the difference in game terms simply cannot be that great. For example look at the difference in going from a 74 gun w/ 24 lbrs. to a 100+ gun with 32 lbrs: you basically go from a 4-6-4 to a 5-7-5 (albeit with a lot more staying power)

HMS Sybille (38) is 3-4-3 with 8 hull boxes. HMS Defiance (74) is 4-6-4 with 9 hull boxes. In between you need to fit a lot of stuff: 2-deck 64s, 1/2 deck 50+, razees, Constitution, etc.

Most likely an upgunned Constellation would just get a bump of a factor here or there. In Box 2 you could do 3-4-3, in box 5 you could give 2-3-2, maybe 1-3-2 in box 6. Something like that...

[Diamondback]

Fred, actually the British 74's are almost all 32# lower deck, 18# upper deck. ("Common"/"Middling" 74's, the main difference being Middling's a bit bigger like Temeraire as opposed to Bellona; a Large 74 has a lower battery of 32# and an upper of 24#.)

The worry I see is, in their efforts to keep things simple I think Ares backed themselves into a corner and didn't leave a lot of room to differentiate between ships; next to the gun power of a 74 even at Thorn's 18-gun peak the Swans are so insignificant in throw as to really not even merit inclusion.

[fredmiracle]

Fred, actually the British 74's are almost all 32# lower deck, 18# upper deck. ("Common"/"Middling" 74's, the main difference being Middling's a bit bigger like Temeraire as opposed to Bellona; a Large 74 has a lower battery of 32# and an upper of 24#.)

Ah yes, true, I think in earlier periods there were a few armed with 24 lbrs, but most were indeed 32s, especially by the Napoleonic period.

[stuh42asl]

Okay guys...............if I could get the St Lawrence out of Lake Ontario maybe we could duke it out..............but I think a 100 gunner might not fit in all those nice locks and rivers............So I guess I will just launch the skiffs and go at you like hockey players..................:)
Shane

[Diamondback]

Shane, do you have any idea what kind of effort it's taking to resist the urge to attempt a bad joke about sending your skiffs to The Locker and then bringing a Canadian woman home as War Booty? :P (My gal's from Toronto, by way of explanation. :) )

[Diamondback]

Ah yes, true, I think in earlier periods there were a few armed with 24 lbrs, but most were indeed 32s, especially by the Napoleonic period.

IIRC, by the time the Brits hopped onto the 74-gun bandwagon they were running 32's--there were a few French and Spanish prizes that were rearmed with 24's, though, but if memory serves they were 68's and 70's. (I KNOW HMS Dublin, the very first British-built 74, was a 32#, because of my studying the entire Slade 74 family-tree--a lineage that starts in France in 1744 and ends in St. Petersburg in 1817, having started with a Large 74 and spread all the way down to 64's and up to the world's last surviving Ship of the Line.)

[David Manley]

Shane, do you have any idea what kind of effort it's taking to resist the urge to attempt a bad joke about sending your skiffs to The Locker and then bringing a Canadian woman home as War Booty? :P (My gal's from Toronto, by way of explanation. :) )

Sounds more like you've been colonised

[csadn]

Shane, do you have any idea what kind of effort it's taking to resist the urge to attempt a bad joke about sending your skiffs to The Locker and then bringing a Canadian woman home as War Booty? :P (My gal's from Toronto, by way of explanation. :) )

"Give in to the Dark Side...." >;)

[Diamondback]

No, David, colonization's going to be when (if) I score the Knock Up and she has to deal with another Crazy American Gun Nut growing in her gut. :D LOL