CHANGES YOU THINK ARES/SGN SHOULD MAKE.

[Demiurgo]

Good morning gentlemen!

Kindly invited here by Diamondback, here I am.

First - I noticed your observations regarding our lack of presence on wargaming press.
I know our PR agent, Andrea F. (personally I think she does a nice job btw with our PR - given the limited resources she gets!) is regularly in contact with most of the hobby press we know of, but it is quite possible that there're magazines and such we are not aware of, or we do not have any good contact with.

So if you've got any suggestions on people we should be in touch with to get more exposure let me know! I appreciate your feedback a lot.
(And also remember the golden rule of press -- the more ads you buy, the more editorial attention you get :-( )

Re- Ares not being in touch with the community - you all know well that Andrea A. is a very regular presence almost anywhere he heards the words "Wings" or "Sails" on the net :-)
And we are regularly in touch with the Oberst himself and a few of the gentlemen here.
But honestly - we have limited time to read everything that's posted about us (reading this thread took me several hours, pushing back the release of a few dozens ships and planes by half a day :-) )
So I think I will nominate a couple of the guys here as our "official ambassadors", so we've got a presence in the community, in exchange for a lifelong supply of ships and planes ;-)

Re- the other suggestions. There's a lot of ideas, here. There are some things I personally agree with, but SoG is as much an "author" game as much as a product line, so some things are probably not going to happen because they are not wise to do at a manufacturing/marketing level (e.g. creating too many SKUs and secondary products for the line), some things may probably not happen because they conflict with the philosophy behind the design. But of course, nothing is written in stone, and whenever there are good ideas we can implement, we will look into them. But note that what is releasing now was planned many months ago... A product like Sails has a long development process, and any change will take months to show up in the actual products.
Some of the things you suggested WILL happen for sure, OTOH... for example, Victory and Constitution will feature Commander's cards and abilities.

Re asking for feedback from the community --- we've already got enough feedback to keep us going for the next five years :-) Seriously, we need to start turning a lot of good ideas gathered from the community into reality. A small example, is the fact that Spanish ships were not a priority in our mind until it became clear from our community that they were something people was really looking for, and we are fitting them as soon as we could in our schedule.

In any case, thanks a lot for your feedback, even for the parts not very kind to us. I guess that you have the perception - because of our beatiful games :-) - that Ares is be quite bigger than it is ... The common comparison in this thread (for good or bad) was with companies like FFG, Wizkids, and WOTC... companies greater than us by several orders of magnitude!
Unfortunately, we have limited human resources (even if step by step, we're growing) so I am sure that several areas of our operations will improve over time.

[Berthier]

Welcome Roberto, great to have the voice of Ares here. Any complaints we might have made have been with a desire to make a great game better, but we live in the vacuum of not knowing the manufacturing, tooling time and design constraints you live by so our enthusiasm may be somewhat over done at times.

Suggestion for other sites you might like to consider accessing for a wider reach- http://www.consimworld.com/

[7eat51]

Welcome Roberto,

It is good having the opportunity to engage with you. As Daniel stated, we voice our opinions because we care; otherwise we would not be on this site. I think it is safe to state that most active members here could be categorized as fans.

If you have suggestions for areas of feedback you would like to specifically receive, please let us know.

[Nightmoss]

Greetings Roberto.

Thank you for stopping by and sharing some thoughts and observations with us. I wont repeat what's already been said, but there are a lot of 'fans' here and we don't necessarily go anywhere else to get our SGN information, so having ambassadors operating here sounds like an excellent idea. I only occasionally go to Board Game Geek and don't belong to Facebook. So, while Ares needs a presence there, the Anchorage is where I check in on a daily basis.

Looking forward to the GenCon SoG World Record attempt in about one month!

[Demiurgo]

I am sure all criticism we get here is in good will - else, as Eric said, you would not be here in the first place. No worries to that regard. Some of our harshest critics here are also some of the people who help us the most ;-) (You know who you are!).

I will try to be present on the Anchorage a little bit more, I promise. But really, in the last couple of months, my presence on internet forums dropped to nil (side effect of handling another KS project, for Galaxy Defenders this time).

Feel free to continue the discussion! I did not mean to interrupt ;-)

[Demiurgo]

BTW-- at the moment we've got 42 people in the Record Breaker at GenCon, so we will have for sure a record! We still have 8 seats available, don't miss it! We even made a nice certificate to give out to the participants :-)

[7eat51]

BTW-- at the moment we've got 42 people in the Record Breaker at GenCon, so we will have for sure a record! We still have 8 seats available, don't miss it! We even made a nice certificate to give out to the participants :-)

I need to double-check the date with work, but participating in this would be great.

[Devsdoc]

Hi All,
I think Ares market is "them that 'as MONEY". I do not think they are interested in us wargamers. Just players and gamers. They bought into a going system with WOG and just changed the name. I think they have no idea of the big market they missed with the scale change. I still do not understand this The idea of plastic ships was so a turn-on as D.B. said it opened doors left, right and centre for us SOL players. Ares knows best. We are just the dummies who pay-up and put-up. You may if you are lucky get the odd U.S. ship and stats. To keep the big hungry beast called the U.S.of A happy.I think they see SOG as a posh game of watery "Risk". I'm sorry to hear that some of you will give up SOL gaming if Ares do not pull there finger out. Sadly I think we will lose gamers. Ares missed the boat and now cannot back track. I do hope for the above gamers they keep going and add extra ships and bits!
Be safe
Rory

[The Royal Hajj]

In all honesty who really cares if you are fighting a neon green French frigate against a historically accurate British frigate; honestly I don't. In my opinion we are all in the same place to play a game that we all get enjoyment out of and the rules are what really dictates the play an atmosphere of the game.

Except then most consumers would buy the cheaper kit version, not paint them and push them around the table thinking everything was just fine. In the mean time, they've lessened my gaming experience and degraded the appeal to people that have not bought into the game yet ;)

Production value/visuals plays a very large part in how well a game is received. Relying on your customer base to provide that production value is not a sound tactic. GW gets away with it because the dump millions into their art/theme departments.

[Demiurgo]

Hi Rory. I am not sure I get the point exactly of WHAT is disappointing to you as a wargamer - is the scale change or anything else?

[Devsdoc]

Hi Roberto,
Yes! the scale change. I as many SOL wargamers was so excited about your ships and game. Over a number of years I have built up a large number of 1-1200 scale ships. It is a love, hate thing. To see the ships on a table is so cool. To see lots of ships is better. To get a pack of bits and it is a "Oh well! back to the hobby room and build and paint some more". If you had gone for a big scale change I would have understood your talk of molding, modelling and manufacturing. This 1-1000 scale makes no sense to me. Sorry to me it smacks of not looking at your wargaming market, or not caring about us. It would have been SOL gamers who would have been your back-bone into this market. You just did not wish to see this. You looked only at the WOG players as your main-stay market. I know some of the people you talk to at the start of the building SOG. I still do not get the scale. I was told on your web-site to shut-up and sell my 1-1200 ships. Or move on, as 1-1200 is old hat and the new thing is 1-1000 and I'm a stuck-in-the mud. I think I'm not. I have tried very hard to be supportive of your game on this site. I think more of my gamer friends here, than you have of long standing SOL players.
I know I would have bought into your game also, if I could have used my ships with your game. As you will not sale game, logs and chips unless I buy your ships as well. This to would mean I must leave my made ships (As David said) in the draw. I know I would have bought a number of your ship as well by now if you sold a ship-less package so I could have used your game with my own ships as well. I think some gamers will pirate your ship-logs etc. This is wrong and I will not do this
So this is me on my high-horse. I do wish you and your game well, for you, but also for my friends on this site.
Be safe
Rory

[fredmiracle]

you all know well that Andrea A. is a very regular presence almost anywhere he heards the words "Wings" or "Sails" on the net :-)
And we are regularly in touch with the Oberst himself and a few of the gentlemen here.
But honestly - we have limited time to read everything that's posted about us (reading this thread took me several hours, pushing back the release of a few dozens ships and planes by half a day :-) )

Thanks for chiming in!

I totally understand the limited bandwidth your staff has for communications with fans, especially given your size and how many games you produce. I've enjoyed seeing your representatives posting responses on the BGG forums occasionally, as well as the periodic KS updates, etc.

Still, if it's possible, I think you can gain a lot of goodwill with the hardcore fans by providing a peek behind the screen on a more regular basis. At least that's true for me--I have a lot of respect for successful game designers, and their game making decisions (both logically-reasoned and intuitive). And I think your production team has done some great work. In a vacuum it's easy for me to wonder why a decision was made, and simply view it as a mistake. With a bit of insight into the decision-making and context, then it will usually make a lot of sense, and sometimes actually add to my appreciation of the game.

If there are other places besides BGG and the Anchorage where this kind of interaction is already happening, then do let us know

(and personally, if there was one topic that I would love to see broached, it would be Ares' perspective on the "repaint question"--i.e. how Ares is handling repaints in order to make them as desirable for repeat-purchase as possible and truly additive to the game experience, both in terms of evaluating the choices that have been made up til now, and exploring how the design team foresees this issue unfolding in the future)

[David Manley]

So if you've got any suggestions on people we should be in touch with to get more exposure let me know!

My suggestions are as they were the last few times - Wargames Illustrated, Miniature Wargames, WSS and the Miniatures Page. Between them they reach out to the vast majority of the wargaming public. I don't recall seeing any official press releases for WoG or SGN in them.

[David Manley]

Welcome Roberto, great to have the voice of Ares here. Any complaints we might have made have been with a desire to make a great game better,

This is an important point, and one that is well made. To some it might sound like a bit of a whinge, but the intentions are honest and positive

[David Manley]

This 1-1000 scale makes no sense to me.

Perhaps if other manufacturers picked up the scale it would make more sense? There is a chance this will happen, it depends mainly on the perceptions regarding the long term viability of the game and the market in general. But if the signs are good the prospects are good

[David Manley]

In all honesty who really cares if you are fighting a neon green French frigate.....

Seriously??????

[Gunner]

The bottom line for me is, Thank you Ares. For your efforts, concerns and most of all your ships. Hope to see/purchase as many as you can produce.
(But please strengthen your 1st. rate masts).

[Gunner]

I thought he was kidding. Or would just as soon play with cardboard counters.

[Nightmoss]

Perhaps if other manufacturers picked up the scale it would make more sense? There is a chance this will happen, it depends mainly on the perceptions regarding the long term viability of the game and the market in general. But if the signs are good the prospects are good

Excellent point and that makes me wonder just how much has sold in 1/1200 vs. 1/1000 scale in the last six to nine months?

[David Manley]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think 1/1200 is going away, it is a massive hit with collectors in Europe as well as wargamers. And talking to a few manufacturers business is as good as it ever was. Its more a question as to whether 1/1000 achieves enough critical mass to make it as a scale in its own right.

[Diamondback]

In all honesty who really cares if you are fighting a neon green French frigate.....

Seriously??????

Yeah, that was a YGBFSM* moment too... what's the point of a HISTORICAL game if it doesn't try to at least tack close to history, even if it doesn't slavishly adhere to it? I mean, admittedly all they can do for colors and markings on some ships is Best Guess or a plausible scheme of the time, but the important thing is that things at least look BELIEVABLE. I can't speak to the French ships, but if you believe naval historian Brian McKay Bellona for a time did carry a similar color scheme to her miniature...
*Don't ask! If you need to, you're too young to know... :)

The thing on 1/1000 vs 1/1200 gives me memories of the launch of Axis & Allies Miniatures. The diehard 15mm snobs just looked down their nose at it: "prepainted, preassembled... why ever would we want something like that?" Then the rescale to more "true 15mm", which they moved into to try to compete more directly with Flames of War etc., and not only did they not gain the Old Grognards they lost a lot of their original customers too. I guess the lesson there was, don't try to change horses mid-race--I'd bet a lot of folks here wouldn't be happy if all of a sudden a new wave was announced in 1/1200 and obsoleted our massive Kickstarter buy-ins, new customers are nice but not at the cost of chasing off the old. Even if a change IS seemingly to a more logical model, the factor of "obsoleting existing product" is a HUGE Shoot Yourself In The Foot--for example, while I think I might have a better gun system worked out for handling some things, I'd never suggest that Ares chuck the existing chit-draws out the window and replace it with my clearer, more open-source and intuitive option; instead, such things are better cataloged as "Variant Rulesets" using the same game engine and mechanics. And that might be another spot of Community Involvement, maybe doing formal playtesting of some of the more popular houserules and adding them to the official Optional Rules as part of a "Community Created Resources" PDF package.

Unrelated: Roberto, check your PM's, amigo.

[Gunner]

I remember reading a statement from Ares saying they originally tried 1/1200 scale, but the ships did not come out very detailed, and that was the reason they went to 1/1000.

[Diamondback]

True, but there's a big difference between making such a change in pre-production before the customer buys in, vs. several releases on the market and the "oh, your hundreds of dollars invested are worthless now--thanks for your money, suckers, and KEEP BUYING!" that WOTC pulled.

[Nightmoss]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think 1/1200 is going away, it is a massive hit with collectors in Europe as well as wargamers. And talking to a few manufacturers business is as good as it ever was. Its more a question as to whether 1/1000 achieves enough critical mass to make it as a scale in its own right.

I wasn't trying to suggest 1/1200 is going away and I'm still buying stuff from Rob at Wateloo Minis before he completely shuts down, but it would be informative to know where the money is going. As for the collectors and wargamers massively into 1/1200 I really don't expect many of them ever to embrace this casual gamers game, whether it's because of scale or the game system. You've already touched on that aspect of SoG in an earlier post.

[Gunner]

True, but there's a big difference between making such a change in pre-production before the customer buys in, vs. several releases on the market and the "oh, your hundreds of dollars invested are worthless now--thanks for your money, suckers, and KEEP BUYING!" that WOTC pulled.

To be sure.

[Diamondback]

You can also see some scale-change effect from many WGF guys that didn't follow over to WGS--which was still a pre-production change, I think some folks had trouble with the idea of a "second line."

Besides, not being 1/144, speaking for myself, cuts my temptation way down to spam a table with those cheap and craptastic old Crown 1/144 WWII kits now made by Minicraft... (Though to be fair their own new-tool kits have gotten some pretty good reviews. Just that when a kit gets to 30, 40, 50 years old it's time to start checking its tooling... especially from the early days where the standards of accuracy were much lower.)

[David Manley]

I remember reading a statement from Ares saying they originally tried 1/1200 scale, but the ships did not come out very detailed, and that was the reason they went to 1/1000.

Yes, but few of us believed it

[csadn]

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby... same goes for you but at a Chili Cookoff.

"Texas Chili, Level 5, with Peelin' The Paint Off The Walls." [In _PHART!_, this card combo is a One-Shot Kill -- it will take a player from no damage to "Leaving The Room" in a single draw.]

>:)

[Diamondback]

CHRIS! We have GUESTS on deck... :p

[Devsdoc]

Hi all,
I think the 1-1000 scale is here to stay, as long as Ares make them. it maybe putting all of your eggs in one basket. but hay-ho! It seem the Spanish ships may have got though to them. At this late stage that is good. I am fixing this date today to see how long before we see ships. This will gave an in-sight into how long it takes from idea to ship. I still hope for a ship-less package, but I think not for a very long time. Maybe when sales drop! If Ares do look into your wishes I will be so pleased for you all. By what David is saying it seems wargamers did take a little of a back sit in the making of this game. For me it is too late. But I hope for you all on this site that Ares take note of your ideas.
Be safe
Rory

[Coog]

"Texas Chili, Level 5, with Peelin' The Paint Off The Walls." [In _PHART!_, this card combo is a One-Shot Kill -- it will take a player from no damage to "Leaving The Room" in a single draw.

Only if your not from Texas! And you left out the pile of chopped onions on top, the bowl of whole jalapenos on the side to munch on to give it a little kick, and lots of Lone Star beer in long neck bottles iced down freezing cold in a metal washtub.

[Andy Blozinski]

To get this thread back on topic, we're supposed to be making specific suggestions we feel would improve this product line. I would lump the possibilities into three main categories:
1) Game play
2) Models
3) Accessories
Some things are made up of more than one category.

[Diamondback]

Or into a matrix of Gameplay - Models - Accessories one axis and Low - Medium - High Cost/Labor on the other. I'll work up a revised table later...

[Nightmoss]

To get this thread back on topic, we're supposed to be making specific suggestions we feel would improve this product line. I would lump the possibilities into three main categories:
1) Game play
2) Models
3) Accessories
Some things are made up of more than one category.

Or into a matrix of Gameplay - Models - Accessories one axis and Low - Medium - High Cost/Labor on the other. I'll work up a revised table later...

It might not be a bad idea to break it down by what Ares can and will do as opposed to what the community can and might do in the months and years ahead? Roberto's reference to SoG as an "author" game implies that some requested enhancements just aren't going to happen, which puts some responsibility for potential change on the gaming community? Just a thought?

[Diamondback]

OK, so that's a third axis: Ares Alone - Community w/Ares Support - Community Alone.

First things first, let's take a look at that table I put together above...

In The Pipe or Acknowledged Possible	Maybe, No Comment	No Chance In Hell
Add-on Cards --Named Commanders (Ares/Community) Community Participation (ongoing)	Add-on Cards --alternate armaments (Community) --unique abilities (Community) 3-D sculpts and rules for: (Ares) ---shore batteries ---islands ---small boats ---fore-&-aft-/lateen-rig ships (schooners, xebecs etc) ---oared vessels (boats, xebecs, galleys etc) revise sternboard construction technique (Ares) tone down or black-wash bright colors (Ares) "Expanded Optional Rules" booklet (Ares/Community) Refine ship-base interface (Ares) Duel Packs (Ares) New and different Starters (Ares) Osprey Pub. cross-marketing O'Brien/Forester licensing Rules for: (Community/Ares) ---Bow and stern chasers ---Mortars ---Landing parties	removable masts unassembled ship kits replace flags with removable pennants (maybe, but strong NCIH lean) Brass mast upgrade kits (NCIH unless 3rd-party) Scale Change Rules/Chit/Deck-Only packages (not quite NCIH but close)

Here's another big question: What can WE do for the game ourselves? We're not the only Ares line, take a look at their portfolio sometime, so if we want something we should be prepared to invest some effort into it just like the WoG gang does with their WWI and WWII Stats Committees--I'll even go so far as to call for the formation of an SGN Stats Committee, and volunteer as Database Administrator.

The variables we need to consider, so far:
Effort - Easy / Medium / Hard
Cost - Free/Cheap / Medium / Expensive
Labor - Ares Only / Mixed Community/Ares / Community Only
Item Type - Gameplay/Rules / Accessories / Miniature Sculpts

[Nightmoss]

Nice table for plugging in additional item requests as we discuss stuff.

As for what we can do ourselves you can start with Keith and the accessories he offers through the store. Plus I've seen many other items that the community has created that could also go into your database (Eric's top down measuring stick, the 'reloading' cannon markers, the ship mat and log holders, Andy's Fog of War Device, Andy's (Mr.Roberts) and others card mods, etc.). Lots of activity for a game that isn't even officially a year old.

[David Manley]

Although we chatted about them earlier, expanded rules aeent on the list. Things like

Bow and stern chasers
Mortars
Boats
Oared ships
Landing parties
Fore and aft rigged ships


Modt of which we have suggestions for and some possible interest from Ares in oicking them up

[Diamondback]

Added in the list, David--boat sculpts were already there under 3d Accessories.

[David Manley]

Yes, i saw those there. Was thinking of rules for them.

[Demiurgo]

Yes, but few of us believed it

It's unfortunately true... 1/1200 would have been much easier to handle discussions here ;-)
Seriously, try to cut 20% away from an Hebe class frigate or our Swan sloop, and see what's left.
It's almost close to impossible get them assembled and painted as they are. With 20% less in size, they were little more than single-color blobs.
The maneuver deck/ship log system - plus assembled and painted - is more thna enough to make our range of models unique, even without a "forced" scale change, which initially we tried to avoid (I did not make an effort to do WW1 anything different from a "standard" scale - and 1/200 in WW2 was to keep the airplanes visually and mechanically compatible with our maneuver deck system, btw).

BTW This brings to another point that was discussed before - why the stern is decorated with a decal and not sculpted. The stern section of our ships IS sculpted. The problem is, the size of windows and other decorative elements is so small, it's impossible to get them properly painted except in the most simple way. Using decals instead was a brilliant improvement (I can say that because it's entirely due to the production team, not me) which made the visuals of the ships MUCH better than before.

I can see that if you are a master painter you'd be better off with an all brown sculpted stern--- but not the vast majority of us (I am really bad as a painter, maybe that's way I am publishing pre-painted minis :-) )

(I guess you can probably remove the stern decal if you really want to, but I did not really try to!)

Re viability of 1:1000 scale for other manufacturers -I say, I'd be proud if Ares contributed to launch a new scale standard, which is as playable as 1:1200 and more beautiful in the final results. Let's see.

[David Manley]

Of course the trick is to paint then assemble, which removes any issues, I'm surprised that isn't the way these are done. And bearing in mind one of the things you mentioned in one of your emails recently I don't see how it could realistically be achieved unless it was done that way (sorry for the crypticness to the rest of you, standfast DB)

Fully agree on the stern decals, I've seen the same used on much larger ships to great effect. In this scale they really are the way to go for pre-paints.

[Demiurgo]

OK, so that's a third axis: Ares Alone - Community w/Ares Support - Community Alone.

First things first, let's take a look at that table I put together above...

In The Pipe or Acknowledged Possible	Maybe, No Comment	No Chance In Hell
Add-on Cards --Named Commanders (Ares/Community) Community Participation (ongoing)	Add-on Cards --alternate armaments (Community) --unique abilities (Community) New 3-D accessories (Ares) ---shore batteries ---islands ---small boats revise sternboard construction technique (Ares) tone down or black-wash bright colors (Ares) "Expanded Optional Rules" booklet (Ares/Community) Refine ship-base interface (Ares) Duel Packs (Ares) New and different Starters (Ares) Osprey Pub. cross-marketing O'Brien/Forester licensing Rules for: (Community/Ares ---Bow and stern chasers ---Mortars ---Landing parties ---Oared ships Sculpts of: (Ares) ---Oared ships ---Fore and aft rigged ships (schooners, xebecs etc)	removable masts unassembled ship kits replace flags with removable pennants (maybe, but strong NCIH lean) Brass mast upgrade kits (NCIH unless 3rd-party) Scale Change Rules/Chit/Deck-Only packages

Here's another big question: What can WE do for the game ourselves? We're not the only Ares line, take a look at their portfolio sometime, so if we want something we should be prepared to invest some effort into it just like the WoG gang does with their WWI and WWII Stats Committees--I'll even go so far as to call for the formation of an SGN Stats Committee, and volunteer as Database Administrator.

The variables we need to consider, so far:
Effort - Easy / Medium / Hard
Cost - Free/Cheap / Medium / Expensive
Labor - Ares Only / Mixed Community/Ares / Community Only
Item Type - Gameplay/Rules / Accessories / Miniature Sculpts

Mostly correct, except I'd move the "Rules/Chit/Deck only" from "No chance in Hell" to "Highly unlikely". As we do not have that column, we can leave it there for the moment ;-)

[7eat51]

DB, I am not sure if this would fall under "Sculpts of" or "Community Participation", but an ongoing, official channel for players to communicate desired sculpts, i.e. some mechanism in which Ares can receive player input that efficiently and effectively summarizes said input. It would be difficult to know market desire if conversations take place on multiple sites. So if Ares developed some form of "survey" on the Ares site, continually advertising that survey across the board, Ares would be able to solicit information in a usable format. Players could create an account on the Ares site, and as such, have one vote. If there is sufficient market demand for a series of sculpts, but those sculpts are not on Ares' radar, Ares could easily miss a profitable opportunity, profitable in terms of sales and in terms of developing customer satisfaction and loyalty.

[Demiurgo]

Of course the trick is to paint then assemble, which removes any issues, I'm surprised that isn't the way these are done. And bearing in mind one of the things you mentioned in one of your emails recently I don't see how it could realistically be achieved unless it was done that way (sorry for the crypticness to the rest of you, standfast DB)
.

I am missing what you refer to here... It IS done this way. Parts are painted first, assembled later. Only very minimal touch-up work (and normally, none in these models) happens after assembly is completed.

[David Manley]

Really? In that case I'm struggling to see what the problem is, but c'est la vie.

[Demiurgo]

Really? In that case I'm struggling to see what the problem is, but c'est la vie.

What the problem is with WHAT????

[David Manley]

Differences in painting and assembling 1:1000 vs.1:1200

If the pieces are painted first then assembled the difference is minimal, at least in my experience. Even 1/2400 are pretty easy to do if you paint first then assemble. But like I said, c'est la vie. They are what they are, and they are very nice indeed

[The Royal Hajj]

Really? In that case I'm struggling to see what the problem is, but c'est la vie.

I think the problem (of making and painting 1/1200 ships) is that even unassembled, they are still very small. The details of the ship do not get any larger or easier to paint if you are given a pile of parts. I think a key point a lot of us forget to think about is that these minis are not being painted by a loving player. They are being painted by a person that does not play the game and has 200 more ships to paint before 4:00pm. That means the amount of care and detail that they will put on a single ship is very limited. If you make the ships smaller, that level of care and detail is also going to be smaller.

I agree that it would have been best if Ares could have gone with 1/1200 scale ships, but for me, I'd rather buy bigger nicer looking ships than smaller, not as nice looking ships to try and force fit them into an existing scale.

I have a similar issue with WGS and it's scale. 1/144 would have been to large for the style of game Wings is (I know many do play it in that scale, and I've tried it), but I feel 1/200 is just to small to capture those planes correctly. Something in the 1/170 - 1/175 range would have been better I think.

For me, it's more important to get the scale correct for your desired visuals and game mechanics than it is to try and fit a preformed standard.

[Demiurgo]

David, industrial painting has very little to do with a modeler's painting. And certain structural details, when made smaller by about 20%, were a problem (e.g. try to decrease the already fragile masts by 20% and make them even more fragile... or make them out of scale to keep the same thickness in a smaller ship and make them ugly...).

To make a long story short: We started with 1:1200. We prototyped 1:1200. Prototypes were ugly, especially for the smaller ships. We increased the size. Prototypes were better. We kept the increased size. :-)

[David Manley]

and as I said they are very nicely done :)