No, neither am I, I'm just having a particularly **** time at the moment
No, neither am I, I'm just having a particularly **** time at the moment
OUCH! Think we all know that feeling, amigo... hope it passes soon.
Sorry. Should have given you credit for starting the thread and your formula. My mind was on DB's formula to be used to create your own stats from scratch instead of modifying stats on existing Ares ships. I'm not sure where Ares is going with its ships.Originally Posted by David Manley
Bobby, sometimes I think that with all due respect to Ares neither are they... Hull damage makes sense at least, it's a straight mathematical conversion from British tonnage BM IIRC.
What doesn't help is that while WGF and WGS are relatively "Open Source" in how they've converted their stats... while they both use cards for movement and chit or card draws for damage, comparing SGN to WGF/WGS is like comparing Windows to Linux in terms of "source code" accessibility.
Would like to see a "famous duel" series. For example the constitution vs. Guerriere or something similar.
Charles, I've actually suggested that Ares should look into a marketing partnership with Osprey--say combine the Duel volume on BHR vs. Serapis with a Duel Pack containing the two, similar with Constitution vs. Guerriere and Victory vs. Redoutable. Yes, IIRC Redoutable is Side B of the Kickstarter Exclusive, but I'd propose that this Redoutable be upgraded to Special Pack standards and wear Trafalgar colors and thus technically be a "different product". For British Frigate vs. French Frigate, I think Cleopatre and HMS Nymphe might both be tolerably represented as reprint Concordes--Nymphe was the lead ship of her class, a 1777 design by Lamothe, while Cleopatre was one of Sane's 1780 Venus class.
I also think this could be a winner with WGF and WGS, too...
Would love this. Would also help those of us who got into the SOG party late. Would snatch all of these duel packs up
The duel packs would make great gifts and prizes as well.
I have learned quite a bit from the Osprey duel books I have read. Their production and information value are high for such slim books.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I have put each of my shiplogs along with the identity card for each ship on my scanner and printed them off on nice glossy paper.
I was going to put each one on a piece of sheetmetal and produce a magnetized copy of each damage chit.
Now I think I'll just put each log into a document protector and use a dry erase marker for recording damage, of course there are still the crew actions to consider.
DB's idea hit the nail on the head.
Duel packs combined with an Osprey book would make the battles much more interesting. And for history teachers, a very hands on learning tool for their students.
Potential "duel" packs (if Ares is listening...)
Nymphe vs Cleopatre
Mars vs Hercule
Ambuscade vs Baionnaise
Constellation vs Insurgents
Constellation vs Vengeance
Constitution vs Guerriere
United States vs Macedonian
Constitution vs Java
Chesapeake vs Shannon
Wasp vs Reindeer
Ranger vs Drake
Bonhomme Richard vs Serapis
Constitution vs Cyane & Levant
I'm sure there's more, that's just off the top of my head. Please make these and take my money....
Charles, you'd be surprised how deaf gaming companies can be--back in Axis & Allies War at Sea days, we pleaded with them for YEARS to complete the Pearl Harbor Six, and in the end they did five and tossed us a big fat F--- You without even having the courtesy to officially announce the line's discontinuance.
Anyway, my thinking is that the best way to go for Duel Packs, other than specific pairs to go with existing Osprey volumes, would be to look for evenly-matched engagements or at least roughly so. Not sure how BHR vs. Serapis stacks up as a "fair fight" with that psychopathic piece of garbage Landais taking potshots at both... if I'da been his XO he'd have been fed to the sharks. Generally it's also best to start with existing sculpts to save tooling so all they have to do is redecorate and figure out how to re-detail for a "Premium Edition".
I don't recommend ANYTHING Osprey does as an exhaustive detail resource, but they are generally a pretty good "primer course" on their subjects with a few leads to follow for further steps.
Duel Packs with Osprey volumes would be great for those of us that like the game but are lacking in knowledge of the subject mater. Makes for a great place to start for learning more.
The other thing I'd suggest for Osprey/DP combos would be to make the Book Pack edition a unique repaint, and maybe include a pre-written scenario along with a write-up of how the battle would have played out in game terms.
"In game terms, what this means is that Nelson scored a Raking Stern Broadside with combined Double-Shot and First Shot bonuses against Bucentaure, and since he was shooting a mixed load he chose to draw half his chits from regular cannon and half from grapeshot. Obviously, Nelson had a very lucky draw that turn..."
DB, though I doubt Osprey and Ares would come together for such a venture, the idea is fantastic. I think to read a historical account in which the story makes touch points to game mechanics would be awesome.
I am currently reading a Pathfinder RPG novel, and I can see the game mechanics in-between the lines. The story is helping me understand the rule system better.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
<- currently watching the clusterf*** SJG's attempt to create _Car Wars 6th Edition_ is turning into...
DO. NOT. GET. ME. STARTED.
Oh, I could tell stories from my Wizkids days... they even brushed off the inputs of us Envoys with alarming regularity--I once had to demonstrate on a gaming table precisely why allowing crew with "move then shoot" and "shoot then move" abilities to stack into a "Move->Shoot->Move" cycle was so broken, and why just having the two on the same ship if you had any "give this ship an extra action" abilities was so powerful. Put a Smokepot on the former that you could fire without a target, you were basically steaming at double speed; the latter you could pop in, lay two broadsides or a broadside and a smokescreen and just run away without any reprisal.
They had to WATCH me curbstomp somebody with it at Envoy "Appreciation" Night to see the problem.
Oh damn, I'm an old Car Wars nut. Where can I check up on what they're doing?
6th edition, huh? Played a ton of car wars back in high school, and still have first edition in the garage, but I guess I missed 2-5
Played alot of car wars myself years ago, but when I looked at what they had done to it a few years ago I decided I'll just keep my old set.
Unless you Kickstarted the _OGRE Designer's Edition_: You can't. There's a special section of the _CW_ conference on the SJG forum for discussing _CW_. Officially, we're not supposed to discuss what goes on in there; but I can definitely say SJG's being run by Suits, not Gamers, these days.
And this is why, as I type this, I am also looking into 3d printing costs for minis in 1/200 or so scale, as well as game-design law (specifically: What constitutes "plagiarism").... :P
I'm the relative newbie to SOG (and by relative, I mean I AM the newbie), but I had a few thoughts on the game:
1) Someone mentioned removable masts, and I would agree that this would be good for multiple reasons. First, it would alleviate some of the broken mast issues that have come up with the ships (I have thus far been lucky and had only one broken mast).
2) I like the idea of the duel packs. This would work well if they decide to introduce a pirate faction.
3) I know Ares is still getting started, but I think they should look into seeing if they can work out some sort of licensing deal with Patrick O'Brien, the author of the Master and Commander series, which is set in the game's predominant era.
4) I guess it's obvious... more ships, more nations, and (obviously) pirate ships.
5) I think this would be a good idea for a Halloween promotion, but Ares should think about releasing the Flying Dutchman, either as a standard ship model, or (for a twist to the game) a "ghost" version of the ship.
Dave, some thoughts...
1. Discussed before, Ares is heels-dug-in resistant.
2. Agreed--if we bear in mind that the Golden Age of Piracy would require a whole new expansion of SOG, as it was separated from the Napoleonic era by the better part of a century and almost all ships of the time were one-offs.
3. Problem is, while many of the ships in the Aubrey-Maturin canon were inspired by the designs of actual ships, the supermajority of the named ships Jack Aubrey served on existed only in O'Brien's pages. Thus, you would need an Aubrey-Maturin wave completely separated from the historical line, because a lot of pure-historical sorts, myself included, would decline to buy fictional ships. That said, for those who DO have the interest I would not complain about such a line and think it might be a good source of revenue, I just wouldn't spend my money on it. A lot of the research has already been done on the ScaryFanGirl site... Similar problem with the ships of Horatio Hornblower's career.
4. Agreed, agreed, and agreed with the reservation in 2.
5. See 3.
Not trying to argue, amigo, just to elaborate on some of your thoughts, both potentials and pitfalls. One thing I've been hearing quite a bit, and agree with myself, is that we need better differentiation between ships of the same sculpt, because if the only differences are name/paint/flag the market for new reprints will be limited to only those who missed out on the prior wave and completists like me. One of those folks raising the issue and I have already started thinking about how Ares could slipstream in an Optional Rules addition giving each ship some unique ability... and thus a reason to choose one ship over another for a given set of scenario objectives, since single combat and straight beat-em-ups will only hold one's attention so long.
I do agree with the better differentiation between ships. I am relatively new to the hobby and thus, do not have the knowledge base to tell one ship from another (which is probably why I will probably just pick up one of each of the ships). I have to admit I even had trouble telling the ships apart in the packaging beyond looking for which ship had what flag.
I will concede that the golden age of piracy is a little bit beyond the scope of Sails of Glory at the moment. But I would not be surprised to see it as a possible spin off similar to Wings of Glory WW1. As it still stands, there were still quite enough pirates out there in the 1790s to 1820s that a few ships could be added for historical significance (like Jean Lafitte and his brother Pierre).
I do see your point on the purely historical aspect of the game. But, Ares does need to look at this game from a business standpoint. Picking up a license for the Aubrey-Maturin or Horatio Hornblower (which, if I vaguely remember copyright law, quite possibly could be in public domain) could bring in new players which will buy new ships and new accessories, which brings in money which will allow them to produce ships for the historical line as well. Granted, I also believe that these ships should be either their own wave (and delineated that they are fictional ships), or their own expansion which will allow players to play them on their own, or with the historical ships of the main line.
As for the Flying Dutchman... historical or not, I still think it would be a cool Halloween promotion for the series, but that's just me.
I think you need to see Jim's customized Flying Dutchman ship. Do a thread search using "black pearl" and then scroll way through the thread for his Flying Dutchman.
Several issues have been brought up that that I think can have a complimentary solution:
1) Lack of differentiation between ships within class.
2) The damage system range is very narrow in scale from top to bottom and limits variation.
3) They've completely ignored carronades and bow/stern chasers.
If they introduced ships and rules for carronades and bow/stern chasers, they open up so many possibilities for variation and differentiation between ships that would increase potential interest in further sales.
Chasers: If a ruler aligned with the line at front/rear of the card intersects an enemy ship between foremast and mizzenmast, you may fire Bow or Stern Chasers. The target draws one damage chit.
So simple, a Munchkin could do it.
I don't think Ares will change anything. I am real interested in seeing the how they are going to handle ships with significant numbers of carronades. I would take all the ships and calculate the firepower factors to the system DB created (the one we have discussed at least a couple of times) and use that system to make new ship cards if my graphic and printing skills weren't so bad.
You want SGN Pirates? Use British frigates attacking peace (pieces of 8 that is) loving Spanish treasure ships.
Point with my chaser comment is, there are any number of ways many popularly-requested features can be incorporated as new Optional Rules, with no need to change existing ship cards, logs or minis. Bonus: by making them Optional Rules, the people that want them CAN have them, and the people who'd rather not don't have to.
Great idea DB. This Munchkin never thought of that.
One thing I would like to see, though not necessarily from Ares, is a set of ship logs for other ships, both classes and navies, that we could use now in substitution of the current ship logs to enable us to play other campaigns. Of course, I would like actual different sculpts, but it is anyone's guess when we'll see enough ships from other nations to play such campaigns.
Do we have an official stats committee like on the 'Drome?
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
No, but we DO have a Designated Stat Collector. :)
Maybe we should assemble such a committee. I know we don't have Shapeways, but we do have Langton's and other possible outlets.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Agreed--I'll build the databases and take point on their management, but we'll need some others to debate game stats from historicals. (Does that make me "Captain of Data Pirates"? LOL)
Also, if we launch a Unique Abilities Project, I think such a committee would be helpful there.
You're missing the point. You have one ship sculpt. You make 5 different versions of it. All 5 versions are identical except the name on the card, a few not terribly important shifts on the damage track and maybe one part of the hull has a different color. Kind of a waste of my time and money. Right now there's not a particularly good reason for me to spend more money on this game. If they released the same sculpt but with different carronade or bow/stern chaser stats to reflect different ships or same ships shifting armament, then I've got a reason to buy some more stuff. Carronade armament was toyed with and tuned a lot. It makes for differentiation.
So..in answer to your point...just don't buy the ships with the carronades if you don't want them. Buy the exact same hull without the carronades. If Ares offers them both ways, they make more sales and everyone is happy.
Andy, I'm not arguing about variant armaments (remember, I'm the guy who crunched data on broadside weights including like SEVEN known variant fit-outs through the Napoleonic-and-prior career of Victory alone? :) ), just saying that specifically chasers were easier to handle since they were frequently fore- or aft-end battery weapons wheeled around and turned when needed rather than dedicated left-in-position by the Napoleonic era.
HMS Castor was for a time loaded as an all-carronade ship, and I wish she'd been statted as such; ditto not-yet-done 74-gun HMS Egmont. Also, there were times when several 74's were loaded top-to-bottom with 24# guns,and I think it'd be interesting to explore the benefits and drawbacks of such "homogenized batteries." Upside, simplified logistics and heavier guns upstairs; downside, less heavy punch downstairs. Were I loading a 74 myself, I'd be inclined to consider an even mix of guns and carronades of the same caliber on each deck except the QD/FC...
I love this idea....Officially added to the rules when I play.
You're probably right on the bow/stern chaser stuff. That might be best handled with a rule added into the book. But, the example you gave for the carronades is what I'm talking about. They could use the same sculpt and make some very different ships with it that people would want to buy. I'm trying to push ideas that would improve the game and increase sales.
Just to add to that...If they back designed new ship's logs for the wave 1 and wave 2 ships to include carronades and offered them as a pack for sale, I'd get them.
I completely agree
Take a leaf out of the "X Wing" book and publish additional rules in the form of a card that is included with relevant models. That way you can get the rules out there without the nause (for players) of having to buy a new edition of the rulebook.
And its already there in the "House Rules" section of the forum too
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...91-Bow-Chasers
For the record, my "1 chit" figure was something I pulled out of my butt just to complete the thought and illustrate the concept--a balance between the lower number of guns firing but the higher chance of those guns getting either a raking shot or tearing some nice holes in the sails.
So we need to re-word to reflect that that line needs to be within the arc for the target to receive a rake, but we've established a sound basic concept. :)
Or skip the hard print cost, and just make it a download on the website with a note about which ships are eligible to use it.
I know I am re-hashing a topic that has been talked about here and in other posts but the masts are a big issue for me. I think some of the ideas voiced here are VERY valid especially from Devsdoc. When I got my starter set it seemed like the foremast literally just popped off the Terpsichore when I took it out (It could have been user error since I did have a few beers the evening I opened it up....regardless it did seem like it just sort of keeled over)....so I decided to go crazy on it (http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...rpsichor-Refit). I personally, and I don't know how shared this thinking is...but I would LOVE if they would sell the masts and sails as separate parts...much easier to work with. I have only repainted the Terpsichore so far but I think I will go the route of clipping all the mast and pinning them with brass rods since it just makes them easier to work with (I fully understand not everyone will be comfortable with this option...)I think to let the sails and masts sold as 2 parts would help. I think most of us can glue a set of sails to the masts
Now if Ares wants to step up the quality of the mini's (and don't misunderstand me...they are pretty great as is..but they could be a little better for the price...not to mention coming through the mail without broken masts [personal opinion]) I would be happy to pay a few $ more. My brother plays the x-wing mini game from Fantasy Flight and the cost of the mini's are comparable with the cost of SOG, but the out of the box visual quality seems to be better. One thing that would be nice is if the sails were already weathered when they are taken out of the box...just less work I have to do. At this point I feel I am just ranting so I'll put a stop to it.
Last edited by Jack Tar; 07-13-2014 at 02:07.
Marc, I wouldn't characterize it as ranting, more adding a voice to the choir on a long-known issue.
Especially since this is brainstorming things that could use fixing, and games that don't take player wishes into account seldom last long... and some folks around here are already worrying about in several years winding up with several thousand dollars of gorgeous minis for a dead or dying game in a scale that nobody else uses.
I'm with Marc. Separate masts can not be commented on often enough. Easier to paint, work on, and solve shipping problems. Three dabs of glue and it's ready to sail.
Maybe less than "several" years.
Well I guess I am not done quite yet. My brother and I used to play warhammer 40k WAY back in the day and one thing I was always frustrated with was the lack of ability to customize your troops (It was pretty limited at the time). But when I walk around my local hobby shops I always see additional sets of extra arms, shoulder armor, weapons you can kit out on your guys now ....and honestly it is pretty cool. It makes me want to get back into it for a few seconds.....then I snap out of it. I am not saying that Ares needs to go to that extent, since that starts going down an slippery slope of custom ships and that goes counter to the theme of historical ships. But maybe, just maybe they would be willing to sell some "bare bones" (as in raw unpainted piece) kits of parts for the different lines of ships. My thinking is that you could purchase an unassembled set/kit/bag of parts for the specific lines of ships for a slightly reduced cost. I don't expect a drastic reduction in cost since I fully understand they need to meet the production costs + a little margin. But I think it could be an additional revenue stream for them in addition to the pre-painted sculpt. In all honesty who really cares if you are fighting a neon green French frigate against a historically accurate British frigate; honestly I don't. In my opinion we are all in the same place to play a game that we all get enjoyment out of and the rules are what really dictates the play an atmosphere of the game. I guess what I am really trying to get at is I would LOVE to be able to get any class of ships un-assembled and paint and put it together myself. Seeing how there is a pretty decent mod culture within the SOG community already this could be a viable option. Shoot, still pre-paint the parts the way the currently do and allow people to purchase single replacement parts...pre-painted masts....bow, stern...etc, etc, if something breaks. I'll end this the way I ended my last post. I am stating to feel like this post turned into a rant so I'll leave it where it is. As far as this idea....Ares, your welcome and I'll wait for my check in the mail.
Last edited by Jack Tar; 07-13-2014 at 01:40.
This being my first foray into mini's since my 40k days (an easy 15+ years....I still have a full Dark Angels Army, Eldar Warhost and Tyranid battle force if anyone wants it [all 1st edition mini's]) outlined in my previous reply I am worried about this as well. It really is a great game and I would really dislike seeing it miss out on it's opportunity due to shortsightedness.
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