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Thread: Stretching Sculpts: SGN102 1782 French Temeraire 74's

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    Default Stretching Sculpts: SGN102 1782 French Temeraire 74's

    Ares has enough Temeraire reprints alone to keep them in business for many years, but for the sake of completeness we should look at stretching that sculpt too.

    Can work for or released as Minor mod Maybe New Sculpt Unknown
    1782 Temeraire 74
    UK Pompee 74 (2; Temeraire clone)
    UK America 74 (2; Temeraire clone)
    Cassard Large 74
    Pluton small variant
    HMS Chatham (built w/ capt. Pluton frames)
    1778 Annibal (Sane; 2) 1778 Neptune (Lamothe; 1)
    1778 Scipion (F-G Clairin-Deslauriers; 3)
    1778 Heros (J-M-B Coulomb; 1)
    1779 Magnanime (J-D Chevillard; 2)
    1780 Sceptre (Lamothe; 1)
    1781 Argonaute (F-G Clairin-Deslauriers; 2; rel. to Scipion?)
    1781 Pegase (Groignard; 6)
    1782 Centaure (J-M-B Coulomb; 4; rel. to Heros?)

    So, here we go... I'll continue feeding French 74's into the table as I have a chance to decrypt their designers, classes and heritages, though this table already has the entire final generation of French 74 designs. For the sake of post length, I will be linking drawings in a separate post in this thread.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 06-26-2014 at 13:25.

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    Getting this image up while I know where to find it...

    The parent sculpt, 1782 Temeraire--specifically, Pompee as taken in 1793 before refitting for RN service:


    1778 Annibal, also by Sane:


    Groignard's 1781 Pegase (Pegase, comb. as-taken and proposed refit)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 06-25-2014 at 23:18.

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    As I look at the two drawings, the two things I notice most are Annibal's mizzenmast being farther forward than Pompee's and her stern galleries being less sharply raked and it seems a little shorter. I'm not totally SURE I'd re-use the sculpt, but I'm ready to call it a "Maybe"...

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    Comparative data for the 1778-1782 generation of French 74's--the last ship preceding this was 1777 Destin, built to a 1763 design. This was really the last generation of French 74 designs, as they kept cranking out modified Temeraires to the end of fighting sail.

    Class Poss. Relatives Cl. Members Designer L. on Gundeck Breadth
    1778 Neptune 1780 Sceptre one-off Lamothe, P-A 54.73 14.29
    1778 Scipion 1781 Argonaute 1778 Scipion
    1778 Hercule
    1778 Pluton
    Clairin-Deslauriers, F-G 55.22 14.29
    1778 Annibal 1782 Temeraire 1778 Annibal->1786 Achille->1794 HMS Achille
    1779 Northumberland->1794 HMS Northumberland
    Sane, J-N 54.15 14.69
    1778 Heros 1782 Centaure one-off Coulomb, J-M-B 54.57 14.13
    1779 Magnanime unknown 1779 Magnanime
    1781 Illustre
    Chevillard, J-D 52.13 12.99
    1780 Sceptre 1778 Neptune one-off Lamothe, P-A 55.54 14.4
    1781 Argonaute 1778 Scipion 1781 Argonaute
    1781 Brave
    Clairin-Deslauriers, F-G 55.22 14.29
    1781 Pegase unknown 1781 Pegase->1782 HMS Pegase
    1782 Dictateur->1792 Liberte
    1782 Suffisant
    1782 Puissant->1793 HMS Puissant
    1782 Alcide
    1782 Censeur->1795 HMS Censeur->1795 Censeur->1799 SP Censeur
    Groignard 54.3 14.62
    1782 Centaure 1778 Heros 1782 Centaure
    1782 Heureux
    1783 Seduisant->1793 Pelletier->1795 Seduisant
    1783 Mercure
    Coulomb, J-M-B 54.6 14.3
    1782 Temeraire 1778 Annibal too many to list Sane, J-N 55.87 14.45
    Last edited by Diamondback; 06-25-2014 at 23:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Comparative data for the 1778-1782 generation of French 74's--the last ship preceding this was 1777 Destin, built to a 1763 design. This was really the last generation of French 74 designs, as they kept cranking out modified Temeraires to the end of fighting sail.
    So one might say...

    [sunglasses]

    ..." o/~ It's A Long Way For A _Temeraire_-y o/~ ".

    B)

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    Random suspicions from the generation before the table...

    First off, the gun-deck layout used on Temeraire (28x32# Lower, 30x18# Upper, 16x8# QD/FC) originated in 1739 with three one-off's: Francois Coulomb II's 1739 Terrible, Pierre Morineau's 1744 Invincible which when captured became the root-stock for almost all Thomas Slade's SOL designs and Geslain's 1744 Magnanime. From there, between designers and dimensions I'd be comfortable preliminarily grouping the "T Minus One"-generation 74's thusly: (blank lines are separations)

    1739 Terrible (F Coulomb II) 50.06x14.4

    1744 Invincible (Morineau) 52.2x15.01 - I suspect Invincible would be better represented by a Slade 74 with new beakhead and sternboard

    1744 Magnanime (Geslain) 53.59x14.45

    1746 Conquerant (F Coulomb II) 50.99x13.97

    1747 Monarque-cl. (B Ollivier) 53.59x13.97 1747 Monarque->1747 HMS Monarch, 1747 Intrepide, 1747 Sceptre
    1749 Magnifique (unknown) 53.59x13.97 1749 Magnifique , 1751 Entreprenant, 1753 Guerrier

    ?1749 Temeraire-cl (F Coulomb II) 52.94x13.97 1749 Temeraire->1759 HMS Temeraire, ?1752 Redoutable

    1749 Couronne (unknown) 54.24x14.29

    ?1750 Florissant (Morineau?) 53.92x14.62 1750 Florissant, ?1753 Prudent

    ?1752 Palmier (J Chappelle?) 53.16x13.97 1752 Palmier, ?1752 Heros

    1753 Courageux->1761 HMS Courageux (J Geoffroy) 52.50x14.64

    ?1754 Defenseur (Salinoc?) 53.27x14.29 1754 Defenseur, ?1759 Thesee

    ?1755 Hector (J-M-B Coulomb) 51.88-53.54x14.45-14.69 1755 Hector->1782 HMS Hector, 1757 Centaure->1759 HMS Centaur?

    /?1756 Diademe (J-L Coulomb?) 54.57x14.13 1756 Diademe->1792 Brutus, ?1756 Zodiaque, ?1757 Minotaure
    |1763 Cesar (J-M-B Coulomb?) 54.57x14.13 1763 Zele, 1768 Cesar, 1777 Destin
    |?1766 Marseillais (unknown) 54.57x14.13 1766 Bourgogne, 1766 Marseillais-?>1794 Vengeur du Peuple
    \?1778 Heros one-off (J-M-B Coulomb) dims in table above)

    1756 Glorieux->1782 HMS Glorieux (Clairin-Deslauriers) 53.34x14.44

    1757 Souverain (unknown) 53.27x14.13 1757 Souverain->1794 Peuple-Souverain->1798 HMS Guerrier, 1760 Protecteur

    1758 Robuste (Groignard?) 56.84x14.40

    ?1762 Diligent (Groignard?) 57.16x13.97 1762 Diligent, 1762 Six Corps

    1766 Palmier (rb from 1752 Palmier)->1782 UK ??? (no design or dim data found)

    1764 Citoyen (J-L Ollivier?) 55.05x14.13 1764 Citoyen, 1746 Conqurant 1765rb, 1766 Actif

    1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 55.22x14.13 1769 Bien-Aime, 1770 Victoire?, 1776 Fendant
    Last edited by Diamondback; 06-27-2014 at 22:47.

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    Design Family Design & Designer Dimensions Principal Armament Ships in Class Drawing
    1739 Terrible (Coulomb, F Jr) 1739 Terrible (Coulomb, F, Jr)
    first "modern" 74
    50.67x14.40 28x36# / 30x18# FNS Terrible->HMS Terrible NMM J3118
    1744 Invincible (Morineau)
    SGN104
    1744 Invincible (Morineau)
    "mother of the RN 74's"
    52.62x14.35 28x36# / 30x18# FNS Invincible->HMS Invincible
    1744 Magnanime (Geslain) 1744 Magnanime (Geslain) 53.60x14.46 28x36# / 30x18# Magnanime->HMS Magnanime NMM J3619
    1746 Conquerant (Coulomb, F Jr) 1746 Conquerant (Coulomb, F Jr) 51.00x13.97 28x36# / 30x18# One-off
    rb to Citoyen class 1765
    1747 Monarque (Ollivier) 1747 Monarque (Ollivier) 53.92x14.13 28x36# / 30x18# FNS Monarque->HMS Monarch
    FNS Intrepide
    FNS Sceptre
    NMM J3202
    1749 Magnifique (Coulomb, JL) 1749 Magnifique (Coulomb, JL) 53.60x13.97 28x36# / 30x18# FNS Magnifique
    FNS Entreprenant
    FNS Guerrier
    1749 Couronne (Geslain) 1749 Couronne (Geslain) 54.25x14.29 28x36# / 30x18# One-off
    1749 Temeraire (Coulomb, F Jr) 1749 Temeraire (Coulomb, F Jr) 52.54x14.13 FNS Temeraire->HMS Temeraire NMM J2385
    1749 Temeraire (Coulomb, F Jr) 1752 Redoutable (Coulomb, F Jr) 53.11x13.97 One-off
    1750 Florissant (Morineau) 1750 Florissant (Morineau) 53.92x14.62 FNS Florissant
    FNS Prudent
    1752 Palmier (Chapelle) 1752 Palmier (Chapelle) 53.17x13.97 FNS Palmier (rb to Citoyen design)
    FNS Heros
    1753 Algonkin (Levasseur) 1753 Algonkin (Levasseur) 51.97x14.29 28x24# / 30x12# One-off
    1753 Courageux (Geoffroy) 1753 Courageux (Geoffroy)
    many UK clones/derivatives
    52.97x14.29 Courageux->HMS Courageous NMM J3199
    1754 Defenseur (Salinoc) 1754 Defenseur (Salinoc) 53.27x14.29 One-off
    1755 Hector (Coulomb, PB) 1755 Hector (Coulomb, PB) 53.27x13.97 FNS Hector->HMS Hector?
    1755 Hector (Coulomb, PB) 1757 Centaure (Coulomb, JMB) 53.27x13.97 FNS Centaure->HMS Centaur NMM J2607
    1756 Glorieux (Clairin-Deslauriers) 1756 Glorieux (Clairin-Deslauriers) 53.27x13.97 FNS Glorieux->HMS Glorieux
    1756 Diademe (Coulomb, JL) 1756 Diademe (Coulomb, JL) 54.57x14.13 FNS Diademe->Brutus
    FNS Zodiaque
    FNS Minotaure
    1757 Souverain (Pomet) 1757 Souverain (Pomet) 53.27x14.13 FNS Souverain->Peuple-Souverain->HMS Guerrier
    FNS Protecteur
    1759 Thesee (Salinoc or Geoffroy?) 1759 Thesee (Salinoc or Geoffroy?) 53.27x14.29 FNS Thesee
    1758 Robuste (Groignard) 1758 Robuste (Groignard) 56.85x14.40 one-off
    1758 Robuste (Groignard) 1762 Diligente (Groignard) 57.17x13.97 FNS Diligent
    FNS Six Corps
    1764 Citoyen (Ollivier) 1764 Citoyen (Ollivier) 55.06x13.97 FNS Citoyen
    FNS Conquerant (rb from older Conquerant)->HMS Conquerant
    FNS Palmier (rb from older Palmier)
    FNS Actif (rb from old 64-gunner)
    1763 Zele (Coulomb, JMB) 1763 Zele (Coulomb, JMB) 55.39x14.13 FNS Zele->Reserve
    1763 Zele (Coulomb, JMB) Cesar (Coulomb, JMB) 54.74x14.13 FNS Cesar
    FNS Destin
    1766 Bourgogne (Pomet) 1766 Bourgogne (Pomet) 54.57x14.13 One-off
    1766 Marseillais (Coulomb, JMB) 1766 Marseillais (Coulomb, JMB) 54.57x14.13 FNS Marseillais->Vengeur du Peuple
    1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 55.22x14.13 FNS Bien-Aime
    FNS Victoire
    FWAS-I p.244
    1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 1776 Fendant (Groignard) 53.27x14.29 One-off
    1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 1782 Centaure 1st pair (Coulomb, JMB) 54.57x14.29 FNS Centaure
    FNS Heureux
    1769 Bien-Aime (Groignard) 1782 Centaure 2nd pair (Coulomb, JMB) 56.28x14.16 FNS Seduisant
    FNS Mercure
    1778 Neptune (Lamothe) 1778 Neptune (Lamothe) 54.74x14.29 One-off
    1778 Neptune (Lamothe) 1780 Sceptre (Lamothe) 54.09x14.37 FNS Sceptre->Convention->Marengo
    1778 Annibal (Sane) 1778 Annibal (Sane) 54.57x14.29 FNS Annibal->Achille->HMS Achille
    FNS Northumberland->HMS Northumberland
    NMM J2641
    1778 Scipion (Clairin-Deslauriers) 1778 Scipion (Clairin-Deslauriers) 53.76x14.13 FNS Scipion
    FNS Hercule
    FNS Pluton->Dugommier
    1778 Scipion (Clairin-Deslauriers) 1781 Argonaute (Clairin-Deslauriers) 55.22x14.29 FNS Argonaute->Filibustier
    FNS Brave
    1778 Heros (Coulomb, JMB) 1778 Heros (Coulomb, JMB) 54.90x14.13 One-off
    1779 Magnanime (Chevillard, JD) 1779 Magnanime (Chevillard, JD) 55.63x14.29 FNS Magnanime
    FNS Illustre->Mucius Scevola
    1781 Pegase (Groignard) 1781 Pegase (Groignard) 55.22x14.29 FNS Pegase->HMS Pegase
    FNS Dictateur->Liberte
    FNS Suffisant
    FNS Puissant->HMS Puissant
    FNS Alcide
    FNS Censeur->ARS ???
    NMM J7692
    1782 Temeraire (Sane)
    SGN104
    1782 Temeraire (Sane) 55.87x14.46 too many to list numerous
    NMM are National Maritime Museum collection catalog numbers, other numbers are volumes of the various french/British Warships in the Age of Sail with page numbers.





    1778 Heros (JMB Coulomb) - clean-sheet

    1779 Magnanime (JD Chevillard) - clean-sheet

    1781 Pegase (Groignard) - clean-sheet


    This table is under construction, will finish as soon as I get a question about Centaure's ancestry resolved--one page of the new FWAS volume says it's evolved from Victoire, another from Hector, and I wanted to get this up and safe before either the Wifi or my laptop can crash again.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-18-2019 at 23:52.
    --Diamondback
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    Hi DB.
    I have not actually got the earlier French FWAS, but now you have drawn my attention to it I will obtain a copy to match my early British one.
    I have found one or two anomalies whilst doing my posts on the British SOL, but cross referencing with other sources only seems to compound the variety of answers I am getting, so in the main I have settled for the most likely. In this case though it looks as if there is no straightforward answer. If you find anything in your other sources maybe you could pass on the source so that I may be able to use it to cross check my own information more effectively.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Hi DB.
    I have not actually got the earlier French FWAS, but now you have drawn my attention to it I will obtain a copy to match my early British one.
    I have found one or two anomalies whilst doing my posts on the British SOL, but cross referencing with other sources only seems to compound the variety of answers I am getting, so in the main I have settled for the most likely. In this case though it looks as if there is no straightforward answer. If you find anything in your other sources maybe you could pass on the source so that I may be able to use it to cross check my own information more effectively.
    Rob.
    As a general rule, newer volumes have more accurate data than old ones. Shoot me your questions by DM and I'll try to piggyback them on with my own and see what answers we can get. :)
    --Diamondback
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    That is very good of you DB.
    I will let you know as they come up.
    Bye the bye. You mentioned your cabinet construction in the last PM. Drop me a picture of your plan of construction as I can't find the one you told me about. I will then be able to help you in return if I can.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    That is very good of you DB.
    I will let you know as they come up.
    Bye the bye. You mentioned your cabinet construction in the last PM. Drop me a picture of your plan of construction as I can't find the one you told me about. I will then be able to help you in return if I can.
    Rob.
    That was back in February, amigo - https://sailsofglory.org/showthread....ll=1#post83735 Note that these cells are meant to be simple lift-out trays so that you can quickly swap ships for an event, not load-bearing structures.

    Re Centaure, it turns out JMB Coulomb built TWO 74's by that name! First evolved from Hector, second apparently the Groignard derivative. Back to building the table I go...
    --Diamondback
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  12. #12
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    Thanks DB that gives me something to start with. Must have been a short term memory lapse.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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