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Thread: Stretching Sculpts: SGN104 1760 Slade Common 74's

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    Default Stretching Sculpts: SGN104 1760 Slade Common 74's

    As promised, here we get into some of the ugly stuff...

    Can work for or released as Minor mod
    or maybe as-is
    Maybe New Sculpt Unknown

    *1757 Dublin (Slade, after FR Invincible)
    *1759 Hero one-off (Slade)
    *1759 Hercules/Mod Hero (Slade)
    1760 Bellona (Slade)
    *1761 Arrogant
    *1763 Ramillies
    *1768 Egmont
    **1769 Elizabeth
    *1776 Culloden
    *1779 Edgar
    downscaled *1763 St. Albans 64
    *1744 FR Invincible/1747 HMS Invincible Lg/Mid 74 (root design)
    *1757 Valiant Lg 74
    *1798 Ajax Lg 74
    *1810 RU Triokh Sviatitelei
    Derived from 1761-capt FR Courageux:
    1783 Carnatic
    1807 Mod Carnatic
    1808 Blake (stretched version)
    1810 Armada ("Forty Thieves")
    Bately's Fame family:
    1759 Fame one-off
    1765 Suffolk & Mod Suffolk

    Williams's Royal Oak family:
    1769 Royal Oak class (Williams)
    1778 Alfred class (Williams)


    Provenance unknown, grouped by designer:
    1763 Albion class (Slade; downscaled 1757 Neptune 90)
    1765 Canada (Bately)
    1782 Ganges class (Hunt)
    1790 Brunswick one-off ('Admiralty')
    1794 Mars (Henslow)
    1801 Conqueror (Henslow; Mars variant)
    1800 Courageux one-off (Henslow)
    1804 Swiftsure (Henslow)
    1805 Fame/Hero class (Henslow)
    1806 Colossus (Henslow; Large 74)
    1798 Dragon one-off (Rule)
    1801 Plantagenet one-off (Rule)
    1802 Repulse (Rule)
    1806 Revenge one-off (Rule; Large 74)
    1807 Bulwark one-off (Rule)
    1800 Spencer one-off (Barralier)
    1806 Milford one-off (Barralier; Large 74 version of Spencer)
    *Known members of the Slade Common 74 "family tree"
    NOTE: The Achille and Northumberland classes have been omitted from this table; as they are straight copies of 1782 Temeraires, they are more properly grouped with SGN102. Ditto 1812 HMS Chatham, designed specifically around the captures frames of the building Royal Hollandais.

    For the sake of post length, I will be linking drawings in a separate post in this thread.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-31-2014 at 14:36. Reason: add Ajax derivative

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    Starting with the sculpt, 1760 Bellona:


    The "baby sister", 1763 St. Albans 64:


    The very FIRST British-built 74, Slade's 1757 Dublin:


    Slade improving on Dublin, 1759 Hero (above) and Hercules-class (below)



    Bately's Fame family:
    1759 Fame and 1765 Suffolk no profile/lines found; only available is 1767 Ajax


    Bately's next stab at competition, 1765 Canada:


    Williams's Royal Oak family: top 1769 Royal Oak, bottom 1778 Alfred



    Hunt's 1782 Ganges, also sometimes called Culloden class but NOT to be confused with the Slade 1776 Cullodens:


    I'm cutting this post off at 1782 Ganges, the last group of Common 74's that were under construction alongside Slade Commons. I'm also kicking Slade's 1763 Albion class into the next post, as it relates closer to the Neptune 90 it evolved from than to Bellona et al, along with the long line from the 1761-captured Courageux up to the Forty Thieves.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-27-2020 at 19:26.

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    1763 Albion class (Slade; downscaled 1757 Neptune 90, which is shown below Albion)



    1790 Brunswick one-off ('Admiralty')


    1798 Dragon one-off (Rule)


    1801 Plantagenet one-off (Rule)


    1802 Repulse (Rule)


    1806 Revenge one-off (Rule; Large 74)


    1807 Bulwark one-off (Rule)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-11-2020 at 12:57.

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    1794 Mars (Henslow)


    1801 Conqueror (Henslow; Mars variant)


    1800 Courageux one-off (Henslow)


    1804 Swiftsure (Henslow)


    1805 Fame/Hero class (Henslow)


    1806 Colossus (Henslow; Large 74)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 02-02-2014 at 00:28.

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    Derived from 1761-capt FR Courageux... first, Courageux herself.


    1783 Carnatic


    1807 Mod Carnatic


    1808 Blake (stretched version)


    1810 Armada ("Forty Thieves")

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Middling 74's based on 1747-capt L'Invincible:
    [original draught not found]

    1757 Valiant


    1798 Ajax

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Barralier's designs: top 1800 Spencer Common, bottom 1806 Milford Large

    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-11-2020 at 13:08.

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    OK, that's virtually a complete catalog from start to end of the pure-sail 74 in British yards. Anybody have any contributions about assigning things to other categories than that long last column?

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    Some interesting variations on the number and positions of the stays on all these 74's. Would have been wonderful to talk to the naval architects and discuss with them why they made some of their decisions

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    Indeed. It's also interesting to note that all of the Courageux derivatives except the Forty Thieves have almost perfectly vertical stems that seem to curve inward for the keel much lower than the others...

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    For a note on lengths, all in feet, On Gundeck and Original Design unless noted with an asterisk:

    Family Class/one-off Designer GD
    Length
    Δ from Bellona
    fullsize
    Δ from Bellona
    mini
    1757 Dublin 1757 Dublin Slade 165' 6.5" -2' 5.5" -0.75mm
    1757 Dublin 1759 Hero one-off Slade *166' 6" -1' 6" -0.46mm
    1757 Dublin 1759 Hercules/
    Mod Hero
    Slade 166' -2' -0.61mm
    1759 Fame 1759 Fame Bately
    1759 Fame 1765 Suffolk Bately
    1760 Bellona 1760 Bellona Slade 168' 0 0
    1760 Bellona 1763 St. Albans 64
    downscaled version
    Slade 159' -9' -2.75mm
    1744 FR Invincible 1747 HMS Invincible
    capture
    Morineau 171' 3" +3' 3" +0.99mm
    1744 FR Invincible 1757 Valiant after Morineau 171' 3" +3' 3" +0.99mm
    1744 FR Invincible 1798 Ajax after Morineau 182' 3" +14' 3" +4.34mm
    1753 FR Courageux 1761 HMS Courageux
    capture
    Geoffroy 172' 3" +4' 3" +1.3mm
    1753 FR Courageux 1783 Carnatic after Geoffroy 172' 3" +4' 3" +1.3mm
    1753 FR Courageux 1807 Mod Carnatic 172' 3" +4' 3" +1.3mm
    1753 FR Courageux 1808 Blake 180' +12' +3.66mm
    1753 FR Courageux 1810 Armada 176' +8' +2.44mm
    1757 Neptune 90 1757 Neptune 90 Slade 171' +3' +0.91mm
    1757 Neptune 90 1763 Albion 74 Slade 168' 0 0
    1765 Canada 1765 Canada Bately 170' +2' +0.61mm
    1769 Royal Oak 1769 Royal Oak Williams 168' 6" +6" +0.15mm
    1769 Royal Oak 1778 Alfred Williams 169' +1' +0.3mm
    1782 Ganges 1782 Ganges Hunt 169' 6" +1' 6" +0.46mm
    1790 Brunswick one-off Admiralty
    1794 Mars 1794 Mars Henslow 176' +8' +2.44mm
    1794 Mars 1801 Conqueror Henslow
    1800 Courageux one-off Henslow
    1804 Swiftsure Henslow 173' +5' +1.52mm
    1805 Fame Henslow 175' +7' +2.13mm
    1806 Colossus Henslow 180' +12' +3.66mm
    1798 Dragon one-off Rule
    1801 Plantagenet Rule
    1802 Repulse Rule 174' +6' +1.83mm
    1806 Revenge Rule
    1807 Bulwark Rule
    1800 Spencer 1800 Spencer Barralier
    1800 Spencer 1806 Milford Barralier
    Based on this, anyone see anything that should be firmly ruled Out of Bounds? My gut says to move both of the family-trees that started with French captures and to move things as complete class families when known (for example, moving 1753/1761 Courageux and all her descendants as a block).

    NOTE: Table is incomplete--it's 5AM here and I've been working on this all night, and I need some sleep--I'll finish filling in the blanks later, after I've caught some shut-eye and had some breakfast.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 02-17-2014 at 04:51.

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    Seems to me anything less than 1mm off isn't worth changing; the ones which are 3-4mm off, tho'....

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    Well, we already know that Ares think unrelated designs and up to 3mm (11') are within their tolerances, going by using the Victory sculpt as Ville de Paris and her stretched sister Hibernia... though the tolerances may get tighter as you move toward smaller ships, given that the difference between a Humphreys 38 and a Humphreys 44 is noticeable enough to have seen two different sculpts from some lines in 1/1200.

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    And per BWAS 1714-1792, Dublin was also a descendant of prize Invincible--which thus makes Invincible part of the family tree and a candidate for stretching. It is also interesting to note that rather than being an evolved Allin 1745 Est 100 as previously believed, this volume has Victory as an evolved Invincible too, as basically an up-scaled Triumph 74 with an added gundeck.

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    Update, Invincible also appears to have had two possible near-sisters, Florissant and Prudent. That's maybe two more Froggie Reflags... too bad they go the wrong way in timeframe, we want forward to the Napoleonic Wars, not backward to the Seven Years' War.
    http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2092
    http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2068
    http://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...w_ship&id=2129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    we want forward to the Napoleonic Wars, not backward to the Seven Years' War.
    What's wrong with the Seven Years' War (apart from: It didn't accomplish much)?

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    You mean other than the fact that it's way outside where the present limits of available ships are?

    Prudent was destroyed in 1758 during the siege of Louisbourg; Florissant even earlier, and the RN didn't even start to get serious about large-scale ripoff of Morineau's design until the early 1760s. So Ares COULD do them, but right now there's nothing you could plausibly put them or L'Invincible up against...

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    Bumped for update with new or refreshed drawings!
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

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    Very good DB. Only wished I'd had those when I started my history of ships of the line.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Very good DB. Only wished I'd had those when I started my history of ships of the line.

    Rob.
    Never too late to edit... :)
    --Diamondback
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    Very true DB, but at the moment I'm up to my neck just trying to catch up on both sites.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Right now, my gut says to group future British 74 sculpts... well, lump everything Ganges and before into SGN104, lobby for a new sculpt for the Courageux Group and a second for the later Henslow and Rule ships--the "Late 74s" to be tooled with two different sternboards for open or enclosed galleries, both parts to be included in each pack.

    Anybody have any thoughts to refine this idea?
    --Diamondback
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