Boarding and Grappling

[Capn Duff]

The thing that surprised me in boarding actions, as I found out to my cost last night was the following, also need a bit of clarification on grappling.

1. The number of crew is totally irrelevant for boardings as you use the burden number, in my case 5 crew on my ship defeated by 2 on the enemy, I drew 5 crew counters he drew one, luck of the draw but the number of crew available is irrelevant.

2. Once grappled the ships stay in situ, no drift or in our case the two ships hit bow on, grappled and stayed nose to nose, I would have thought the ships would have moved abeam to each other, they are grappled after all.

3. If grappled how do you un-grapple? It was not clear to me so I would appreciate clarification here if anyone has an idea or knows.
I think if no boarding takes place you are automatically un-grappled but not sure.

So can anyone enlighten me

[fredmiracle]

1) Yes, that's a bit of a gotcha isn't it--you might think the melee strength would go down as the crew gets whittled away, but it doesn't. Even at its last crew box, the SOL is still dealing 5 chits. Consequently, if you have a frigate, you better not grapple an SOL unless it's down to it's last empty crew box, or at most two. If it's got half its crew and you have all yours, you could still easily lose...

2) Yes, that struck me too when reading the rules. If you grapple/entagle in a position where they can rake you and you can't fire back, I imagine it's devastating.

3) I think you just replay the grappling scenario again the next turn. If you both want to stay grappled you will. If you both want to end the grapple, you will. If one wants to stay grappled and the other doesn't then it's a chit draw 50/50.

But keep in mind if you are playing the entanglement rule, then that's a separate thing too. You can be grappled and not entangled, or grappled and not entangled, or both. So in practice it might be hard to get away once you've gotten stuck.

[Zarathud]

The number of crew is totally irrelevant for boardings as you use the burden number, in my case 5 crew on my ship defeated by 2 on the enemy, I drew 5 crew counters he drew one, luck of the draw but the number of crew available is irrelevant.

The problem is that there is an abstraction here as there is not a one to one relationship of crew boxes between ships. HMS Defence is listed with 600 crew and has 10 crew boxes. Courageuse has 280 crew, but 9 crew damage boxes. If you went by crew boxes, Couragese would have an even chance in taking over a ship with twice her compliment, while if you use burden, Defence has a clear advantage.

3. If grappled how do you un-grapple? It was not clear to me so I would appreciate clarification here if anyone has an idea or knows.
I think if no boarding takes place you are automatically un-grappled but not sure.

So can anyone enlighten me

p. 38 Ending on Boarding - "...the ships remain grappled until the next turn. At the beginning of the Planning phase of the next turn, repeat the procedure to see if the boarding continues or not."

In the case of Advanced rules, you would replace "beginning of the Planning phase" to "end of the Action phase".

Essentially, you automatically un-grapple unless one ship or the other attempts to board again in the following turn. If one ships attempts boarding, there is a 50% chance of remaining grappled, and if they both board, you stay grappled.

[Capn Duff]

The problem is that there is an abstraction here as there is not a one to one relationship of crew boxes between ships. HMS Defence is listed with 600 crew and has 10 crew boxes. Courageuse has 280 crew, but 9 crew damage boxes. If you went by crew boxes, Couragese would have an even chance in taking over a ship with twice her compliment, while if you use burden, Defence has a clear advantage

Yes see that, but, two 74 with same burden, one has 5 crew and other has 2 crew what advantage does the 2:1 crew have, which they would!, I understand the use and reasoning for the rule as is, but I found it a little too abstract.
Maybe an extra counter for odds , ie 1 counter at 2:1 , 2 counters for 3:1 etc, or even an extra counter at the end of a round if outnumbers by more than two to one.
For me it definitely needs something extra

[Zarathud]

Yes see that, but, two 74 with same burden, one has 5 crew and other has 2 crew what advantage does the 2:1 crew have, which they would!, I understand the use and reasoning for the rule as is, but I found it a little too abstract.
Maybe an extra counter for odds , ie 1 counter at 2:1 , 2 counters for 3:1 etc, or even an extra counter at the end of a round if outnumbers by more than two to one.
For me it definitely needs something extra

The advantage is already built in given even probabilities as the ship with less crew is much more likely to surrender first. Remember that even though two ships with equal burden are both drawing 5 E damage counters, you draw them 1 at a time and apply damage immediately, you don't draw them all and apply all damage at once.

For ease, assume that you always have a 50% chance of drawing a Crew Damage symbol on a E damage chit draw. Take your example of two ships, each with 5 burden, one with 2 crew and one with 5. There is about a 3% chance you would draw 5 crew damage symbols in a row to cause the ship with 5 crew to surrender. For the ship with 2 crew, there is about a 20% chance that you will not draw at least 2 Crew Damage counters within that same 5 chits draw. Your result was an outlier as there is less than 0.6% chance of the 2 crew ship surviving the boarding action against a 5 crew ship, although obviously you saw it was possible.

[Capn Duff]

The advantage is already built in given even probabilities as the ship with less crew is much more likely to surrender first. Remember that even though two ships with equal burden are both drawing 5 E damage counters, you draw them 1 at a time and apply damage immediately, you don't draw them all and apply all damage at once.

For ease, assume that you always have a 50% chance of drawing a Crew Damage symbol on a E damage chit draw. Take your example of two ships, each with 5 burden, one with 2 crew and one with 5. There is about a 3% chance you would draw 5 crew damage symbols in a row to cause the ship with 5 crew to surrender. For the ship with 2 crew, there is about a 20% chance that you will not draw at least 2 Crew Damage counters within that same 5 chits draw. Your result was an outlier as there is less than 0.6% chance of the 2 crew ship surviving the boarding action against a 5 crew ship, although obviously you saw it was possible.

Sorry still don't buy the argument I'm afraid, too random for me.

[Zarathud]

Sorry still don't buy the argument I'm afraid, too random for me.

Uhhh...I guess I don't understand how that is too random. With equal burden, the ship with 5 crew vs. one with 2 crew statistically wins a boarding action 169 out of 170 times. Above, you were suggesting extra counters due to the odds differential, but I can't see why the 5 crew ship needs the odds more stacked in its favor.

[Пилот]

I must add, as counters are drawn one by one, lower-burden ship still has a chance to defeat opponent, specialy if opponent has few Crew Boxes uncovered.

[Zarathud]

I must add, as counters are drawn one by one, lower-burden ship still has a chance to defeat opponent, specialy if opponent has few Crew Boxes uncovered.

Agreed. The lower burden ship will always have a chance of winning, but having a higher burden represent one advantage (as you are potentially inflicting more damage on your opponent) and having more uncovered crew boxes is another advantage (as you can absorb more damage).

[Capn Duff]

Uhhh...I guess I don't understand how that is too random. With equal burden, the ship with 5 crew vs. one with 2 crew statistically wins a boarding action 169 out of 170 times. Above, you were suggesting extra counters due to the odds differential, but I can't see why the 5 crew ship needs the odds more stacked in its favor.

I suppose I have been a board gamer too long and am so used to greater odds having greater advantage.
I am not diss crying your argument/ explanation, just for me it's doesn't seem right is all. I'll play the rules and enjoy the game win or lose, in this case I didn't think it was correct is all.

Moving on to another point with grappling, are the ships supposed to stay in situ or should they not be brought alongside each other?
Lastly if grappled are you still allowed to fire cannons before boarding actions or only muskets ?

[Пилот]

Good question!

I would say ships are not allowed to use neither artillery nor musketry, as boarding is declared at the beginning of planning phase. I suppose musketry effect is included in hand-to-hand combat, and using artillery would be to risky, as you have own people boarded on enemy ship. But I'm not 100% sure about this.

[Zarathud]

I suppose I have been a board gamer too long and am so used to greater odds having greater advantage.
I am not diss crying your argument/ explanation, just for me it's doesn't seem right is all. I'll play the rules and enjoy the game win or lose, in this case I didn't think it was correct is all.

Moving on to another point with grappling, are the ships supposed to stay in situ or should they not be brought alongside each other?
Lastly if grappled are you still allowed to fire cannons before boarding actions or only muskets ?

Grappling must be re-determined every turn, i.e. you don't automatically stay grappled in following turns. This determination is done at the beginning of the planning phase in the Basic and Standard rules and at the end of the Action phase for Advanced rules. There are no rules to bring ships alongside. I suspect it would be difficult adjudicating how the ships are repositioned while remaining fair to both parties.

There is nothing that says you can't use artillery or musketry fire in the same turn as boarding. Keep in mind that in the Advanced rules you still have to have enough available actions to plan all three crew actions.

[fredmiracle]

There is nothing that says you can't use artillery or musketry fire in the same turn as boarding. Keep in mind that in the Advanced rules you still have to have enough available actions to plan all three crew actions.

Don't have the ships here to try out different configurations, but my sense is that the arcs are wide enough that it will be hard to touch bases and not have some firing arc come to bear. Still if you collide head on to an enemy's broadside that is a recipe to die really quickly. If they have the actions they can rake every turn and you can, at best, manage a partial shot in return.

[Zarathud]

Agreed, that would be a bad situation. You can still try to "break the grapple" each turn by playing a blank counter during grappling declarations. That will give you a 50/50 chance of not getting grappled and allow you to move away.

[nilliom]

Agreed, that would be a bad situation. You can still try to "break the grapple" each turn by playing a blank counter during grappling declarations. That will give you a 50/50 chance of not getting grappled and allow you to move away.

What happen if you don't have enough action left to put a blank action when the grappled ship has a boarding action. Is the boarding then a random action as when the actions are boarding against a blank?

[Zarathud]

What happen if you don't have enough action left to put a blank action when the grappled ship has a boarding action. Is the boarding then a random action as when the actions are boarding against a blank?

It is not very clear from the rules, but remember that boarding is split up into multiple phases.

1) In the Planning phase, you need to determine whether or not to plan a Boarding action.

2) In the Action phase, crew actions are revealed and at the end of the phase boarding/grappling declarations are made. Per the advanced rules: "Only a ship that planned a Boarding action may declare a boarding." Therefore, during boarding/grappling declaration a ship that planned a Boarding action chooses either a Boarding token (to declare intention to board/grapple) or a Blank token (to declare intention not to board/grapple). My assumption here, based on the quote from the rulebook, is that ships that did not plan a Boarding action in the Planning phase are automatically assigned a Blank token for boarding/grappling declarations.

3) After declarations, grappling results are resolved by the normal method for each pair of ships (2 Boarding tokens = grapple, 1 Boarding/1 Blank = Pull E token for 50% chance of grapple, and 2 Blanks = no grapple)

4) At the end of the Combat phase, ships that are grappled resolve Boarding attacks. Ships that did not plan a Boarding action suffer a penalty per the Advanced rules, although note that ships that planned a Boarding action and played a Blank counter for boarding/grappling declaration do not suffer that same penalty.

I tried to spell this out in my QRS:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../SoG%20QRS.pdf

[nilliom]

Yes I use your QRS it is great

[Пилот]

One of most useful SoG things so far.

[Beowulf03809]

I tried to spell this out in my QRS:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../SoG%20QRS.pdf

Glad I clicked...you're up to v0.8 already!!! I just downloaded it a couple days ago at 0.4, but maybe that was from an old link?
Thanks again for this awesome reference!

[Zarathud]

Glad I clicked...you're up to v0.8 already!!! I just downloaded it a couple days ago at 0.4, but maybe that was from an old link?
Thanks again for this awesome reference!

v1.0 is up on BGG and in the files section here on the site.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepag...nced-rules-qrs

[Naharaht]

If Boarding continues into a second or subsequent turn, does the rule about resolving cannon and musket fire before resolving the boarding action still apply? If it does still apply do the ships still fire the full number of cannons that will bear and do they have a full musket fire effect because logically the ships' top deck gun crews would have been fighting in the boarding action, not manning their guns and whilst the sharpshooters in the fighting tops would still be there the marines on deck would be involved in the boarding? There is no mechanism in the rules for reduced fire in these circumstances that I can see.

[fredmiracle]

If Boarding continues into a second or subsequent turn, does the rule about resolving cannon and musket fire before resolving the boarding action still apply? If it does still apply do the ships still fire the full number of cannons that will bear and do they have a full musket fire effect because logically the ships' top deck gun crews would have been fighting in the boarding action, not manning their guns and whilst the sharpshooters in the fighting tops would still be there the marines on deck would be involved in the boarding? There is no mechanism in the rules for reduced fire in these circumstances that I can see.

Yes, as far as I know all the normal cannon and musket happens while you are grappled.

However, if you are playing advanced rules, then the crew actions will likely begin to impose some limits. You may find yourself wanting to play a cannon fire/reload action (or even two), a musket action, and a melee action (without which you will be at a significant disadvantage if/when it does come around to boarding again)--not to mention possibly also needing to fight fires or pump. If your ship has taken much damage at all, then you will usually not be able to do everything, and have to make a tough decision which actions to choose

For whatever reason in 10-12 games I have yet to have a boarding action come to completion. By the time two ships start a turn in contact and manage to grapple, one of them has always been pretty well ripped up, and ends up surrendering before we get around to the boarding...

[Пилот]

Which is frustrating, but makes game more fun!

[Naharaht]

I think that, when we have merchant and pirate ships, grappling and boarding will become more popular.

[DeRuyter]

For whatever reason in 10-12 games I have yet to have a boarding action come to completion. By the time two ships start a turn in contact and manage to grapple, one of them has always been pretty well ripped up, and ends up surrendering before we get around to the boarding...

I have had a game with several boarding actions, including a multiple ship action. I think it depends on the scenario and forces involved. One boarding action did take several turns.

[nilliom]

In the games we played it occured very often.