CIRCVS MAXIMVS

[csadn]

Why is it only the white man's burden?

I was referencing this: http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_s...te_mans_burden .

There's a lot of conspiracy in that theory. I'm not going to get into the speculation game - I can't get into Steve and Phil's heads. But it seems to discount the fact that Phil point blank said that minis will NOT be part of the core game. IF the game is successful in its own right, then they will consider adding miniatures. But they want a price point on the core game that allows sales in mass merchandisers like Target and Wal-Mart.

I've heard that, as well (I have the "I Made Steve Jackson Work On _Car Wars_" shirt >:) ), but if you'll forgive a small pun: I ain't buyin' it.

For one: Have you seen what the game aisles at Target and Wal-Mart look like these days? Most of it is the same stuff I was seeing when I was 5-10 years old -- _LIFE_, _Scrabble_, etc. Newest game from an actual gaming company I've seen in there was _Apples to Apples_ (the LEGO board games aren't by Gamers). _CW_ isn't for 5-10-year-olds (despite CW5's best efforts...); I doubt the stores will take much interest.

This means we're back to "traditional gaming", which is the market _CW_ was originally intended for. And the traditionals are the ones who want either 1" or 3".

It's a plan set up to Fail, which means they can "Legitimately" say "There's no interest in _CW_ any more; so we aren't going to do anything with it henceforth".

The fact also remains that sales of Car Wars dropped off precipitously in the 90's. Yes, SJG made a lot of mistakes that hastened its downfall (Scott Haring's departure was devastating for CW),

Haring leaving was bad, this is true -- but the real problem was the Gang of Four who followed him: Blankenship's off-hours activities got SJG raided (read _The Hacker Crackdown_); Oines wouldn't accept submissions from anyone who wasn't his buddy (rumor is: When they opened his desk after he left, they found a year's worth of unopened CW mail...); Searle knew absolutely nothing about the product, and it showed; and Sheeley... oh dear god, Sheeley... whose policy was "If New Omaha Vehicular Assn, does it this way, then the Official Rule is to do it exactly the opposite". (Care to guess which CW group I was with at the time? Hint: "Wibble!" >:) )

but with all due respect, consumer tastes changed too. To be blunt, I'm very aware of how fast a turn in CW *can* go, but I'm also very familiar with how long an overall session usually takes - especially with four or more cars - and how little actually happened in the game during that span of time. And I played with a group of VERY experienced players. But it's not just my anecdotal experience - this has been the universal complaint about CW from day one. Yes, it's fun, but it's also S-L-O-W. If your games are sprint fests, that's awesome, but that is the very rare exception, not the rule.

The problem here is lack of editing -- the ever-increasing amount of "clag" in the rulebook, made worse by never having someone go through the manual and clear out the deadwood, leading to instances where two contradictory rules exist, or having to guess at how later-added Item A interacts with Rule Z. One decent editor performing a proper sweep-and-clear on the rulebook, and it would be down to maybe two pages for maneuvering and one for shooting. (I know -- I did a sweep-and-clear a while back; for obvious reasons, I can't publish it.)

Contrary to your theory about "kids" being sucked away by computer games, the fact is that board games and miniatures games are selling at record levels, and not just to old farts like us.

I keep hearing that -- but I wonder how much of it is actual new blood, and how much of it is "all the successful games work on the 'razor-blade' model" (which means the same game can be resold to a person multiple times). Heck, the population of the US increased 50% since 1983; if the percentage of Gamers dropped in that time, there'd still be more of them in terms of actual numbers. Not sure what the actual state of affairs is.

The difference is that tastes have changed in the last 30 years. Successful games today tend to last 90 minutes or less, and have very little "downtime" between player turns. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the trend. If SJG can revise the CW rules to speed up gameplay so that a duel will *regularly* take 90 minutes (preferably 60) or less to complete, then I am all in favor of that.

Length of a game session is an issue -- but as I pointed out: There's nothing wrong with original CW which can't be fixed with a editor who knows what he's doing and doesn't have an agenda. I actually did that -- knocked maneuvering down to 2 pages (and one of those is mostly the Crash Table -- note singular), and combat to 1. The only way to make it any shorter would be to copy-paste the Jump-Start Rules (and I admit to borrowing extensively from JS to find ways to speed events up).

As to whether I support it or not: It will depend on how far from Actual CW it gets, and how much additional stuff one gets in the stretch goals.

[GreenLaborMike]

I've heard that, as well (I have the "I Made Steve Jackson Work On _Car Wars_" shirt >:) ), but if you'll forgive a small pun: I ain't buyin' it.

For one: Have you seen what the game aisles at Target and Wal-Mart look like these days? Most of it is the same stuff I was seeing when I was 5-10 years old -- _LIFE_, _Scrabble_, etc. Newest game from an actual gaming company I've seen in there was _Apples to Apples_ (the LEGO board games aren't by Gamers). _CW_ isn't for 5-10-year-olds (despite CW5's best efforts...); I doubt the stores will take much interest.

This means we're back to "traditional gaming", which is the market _CW_ was originally intended for. And the traditionals are the ones who want either 1" or 3".

Have you looked at Target on-line lately?

http://www.target.com/sb/games-puzzl...tc=762109|null

And take a look at Wal-Mart on-line:

http://www.walmart.com/browse/games-...alse&ic=32_32&

Just on the first page of these sites, I see Munchkin, Settlers of Catan, Pandemic, Dominion, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, etc. Some of the others are no longer for sale, but that's because they are typically carried during the holiday selling season (and only during the holiday selling season). And this doesn't consider Amazon, which sells just about every game currently published. Face it - strategy boardgaming has gone mainstream.

SJG's attempts at minis have ranged from poor to middling success. But Munchkin has made MILLIONS. And that didn't happen through FLGS's (sadly). SJG already has a relationship with mass merchandisers, and *my* suspicion is that they like it - a LOT. If they can sell millions of copies through Target, Wal-Mart, Amazon and others, then they will do whatever they can to make that happen.

This doesn't make SJG any more or less noble than your theory, but I think it's more likely. Whether it leads to a revised Car Wars that is as much (or more) fun to play than the original remains to be seen.

[Andy Blozinski]

1:1000 vs 1:1200 anybody?



Look at how many times the various Flames of War scenario and background books get reprinted. And I got a slagging on another wargame forum when I dared to mention that in the 70s and 80s it was possible to get all the background, uniform and rules you needed for the Napoleonic Wars in a single volume whereas now apparently you need a new background book with theatre specific additional rules for what seems like every year and campaign of the wars

The few times I've mentioned how FoW would be much better with one point system, instead of three differently pointed eras (and thus three sets of books to buy), I've got replies of how horribly nothing would function correctly and the whole game would be nastily broken. I then point out that the midwar books they have include tanks from before the war and tanks like the Panther and the Elephant (which is effectively not far from a King Tiger) all in one point system and most think the midwar books are the best pointed and balanced of them all. I also point out ASL had one point system that worked just fine. It's amazing how easily some people are trained to accept a substandard fate.

[DeRuyter]

Have you looked at Target on-line lately?

http://www.target.com/sb/games-puzzl...tc=762109|null

And take a look at Wal-Mart on-line:

http://www.walmart.com/browse/games-...alse&ic=32_32&

Just on the first page of these sites, I see Munchkin, Settlers of Catan, Pandemic, Dominion, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, etc. Some of the others are no longer for sale, but that's because they are typically carried during the holiday selling season (and only during the holiday selling season). And this doesn't consider Amazon, which sells just about every game currently published. Face it - strategy boardgaming has gone mainstream.

SJG's attempts at minis have ranged from poor to middling success. But Munchkin has made MILLIONS. And that didn't happen through FLGS's (sadly). SJG already has a relationship with mass merchandisers, and *my* suspicion is that they like it - a LOT. If they can sell millions of copies through Target, Wal-Mart, Amazon and others, then they will do whatever they can to make that happen.

This doesn't make SJG any more or less noble than your theory, but I think it's more likely. Whether it leads to a revised Car Wars that is as much (or more) fun to play than the original remains to be seen.

Target just had X-Wing core sets at 50% off (I had to get a third!). Barnes and Noble also carries the titles you mention above.

I have also seen a rise in the trend of cooperation games like Pandemic. There certainly seems to be a number of successful FLGS's despite the mass market, including Amazon. Does this mean that the teenagers, and college age gamers are coming out from behind their phones and computers for FtF play? Maybe so, but unfortunately not it seems in historical gaming.

[DeRuyter]

The few times I've mentioned how FoW would be much better with one point system, instead of three differently pointed eras (and thus three sets of books to buy), I've got replies of how horribly nothing would function correctly and the whole game would be nastily broken. I then point out that the midwar books they have include tanks from before the war and tanks like the Panther and the Elephant (which is effectively not far from a King Tiger) all in one point system and most think the midwar books are the best pointed and balanced of them all. I also point out ASL had one point system that worked just fine. It's amazing how easily some people are trained to accept a substandard fate.

Like FOW

[GreenLaborMike]

Target just had X-Wing core sets at 50% off (I had to get a third!). Barnes and Noble also carries the titles you mention above.

I have also seen a rise in the trend of cooperation games like Pandemic. There certainly seems to be a number of successful FLGS's despite the mass market, including Amazon. Does this mean that the teenagers, and college age gamers are coming out from behind their phones and computers for FtF play? Maybe so, but unfortunately not it seems in historical gaming.

My understanding is that FLGS's are slowly dwindling. It's a bit ironic that as gaming goes mainstream, FLGS do not always share in the good fortune. The rise of the internet and mass merchandisers makes it impossible for brick and mortar stores to compete on price. My very favorite FLGS, The Little Soldier in Alexandria, VA, closed many years ago, and I will never fully recover from that.

On the bright side, those that succeed are becoming real hubs of the gaming community, by offering playing space, snacks/food, and organized game play. It's wonderful to see. I'm a big fan of supporting FLGS', and I am very fortunate to live in an area with four of five within a 10 mile radius (It's one of the benefits of living in a dense metropolis like Oakland/Berkeley). They are almost all populated by young people - middle and high school and college students. This is especially true of the game store next to UC Berkeley.

On the issue of historical wargaming, I think it's necessary to accept that, while the market will wax and wane somewhat, it will always remain something of a niche in the gaming community. Sails of Glory will never sell 5+ million copies like Ticket to Ride. But at least it can enlarge the navel wargame market somewhat by having cool miniatures and easy-ish game play.

And thus completes my efforts to wander completely off-topic from the purpose of this thread!

[SeaRoyal20]

I love the idea of chariots but don't they just go around in a big oval? Are we talking demonlition derby chariots?

[Gunner]

Are we talking demonlition derby chariots?

Yes. By hook or by crook.

How dare you to get back to the reason this thread was started.

[csadn]

On the bright side, those that succeed are becoming real hubs of the gaming community, by offering playing space, snacks/food, and organized game play.

Indeed -- almost like the social clubs of the 19th and earlier centuries.

As to stores' gaming sections: Yeah, I've seen games available online -- but on shelves, not really. And it varies greatly depending on the store -- for ex., if I want _X-Wing_ stuff, I have to go to B&N; no one else carries it. Shelf space is by nature limited, so it goes to the "guaranteed" sellers.

What scares me is how old some of the stuff they're bringing out actually is -- someone actually brought back the old _JAWS_-themed game (one of these where one has to remove objects from a trap and not be the one who sets it off) with different packaging. The molds on that have to be near 40 years old.... ("And that's all I have to say about that." :P )

Chariots *could* be races on a "road course"; they weren't because a racetrack that big would have been impossible to keep the spectators contained. (The board game _Ave Caesar_ uses a road-course with split lanes and such; it would take some doing to convert. Also: _Renegade Legion: Circus Imperium_ has rules for Figure-8 chariot races....)

[GreenLaborMike]

With the success of Spartacus the TV series, I wonder what interest there would be for a Roman Chariot race/combat game. Could be worth exploring...

[Coog]

With the success of Spartacus the TV series, I wonder what interest there would be for a Roman Chariot race/combat game. Could be worth exploring...

I don't know about Spartacus, but could there be anything more inspiring than Ben Hur?

[Coog]

From Down Under:



Hey! Isn't that Daniel in one of those Chariots!

[Gunner]

All I know is, whenever Circvs Maximvs is played with miniatures, they always draw the biggest crowds.

[Coog]

Here's a game from Millenniumcon:

[Gunner]

Who's that guy on the right? Looks like he's wearing my vest and one of my hats.

[DeRuyter]

There's an example where you need a wider table to keep the paperwork off the board and the giant soda!

[Andy Blozinski]

Like FOW

I can't say I disagree with that. The reason I play the game is because I thought ASL was dead and this was the game everyone was playing. You can imagine my horror when, after having sold off all my ASL stuff only a month before, I went to a nearby convention and there were (30) people playing ASL. Oh the horror. Even several of the big FoW supporters in Texas have openly said they are looking for an alternative. It's just nuts that no one is even trying to present us with a competing product.

[Andy Blozinski]

There's an example where you need a wider table to keep the paperwork off the board and the giant soda!

Ah hell no! That's the Friday night game. Drinkin' 'n cussin' is welcomed and encouraged. It's a bummer when someone insists on bringing their kids to the Friday game, instead of the Saturday game.

[DeRuyter]

I can't say I disagree with that. The reason I play the game is because I thought ASL was dead and this was the game everyone was playing. You can imagine my horror when, after having sold off all my ASL stuff only a month before, I went to a nearby convention and there were (30) people playing ASL. Oh the horror. Even several of the big FoW supporters in Texas have openly said they are looking for an alternative. It's just nuts that no one is even trying to present us with a competing product.

Well I've always thought "Battlefront WWII" was a great game. Fireball Forward seems to be getting a lot of traction these days as is "Chain of Command" (I have not tried either yet). Bolt Action is fun (see Aaron's AARs) but certainly not the at the level of ASL. Simple d6 system with not a lot of special rules and exceptions to learn or purchase.

[Andy Blozinski]

Well I've always thought "Battlefront WWII" was a great game. Fireball Forward seems to be getting a lot of traction these days as is "Chain of Command" (I have not tried either yet). Bolt Action is fun (see Aaron's AARs) but certainly not the at the level of ASL. Simple d6 system with not a lot of special rules and exceptions to learn or purchase.

None of those are at the needed level of unit representation or level of force. Something like a streamlined ASL set up for miniatures would be great.

[DeRuyter]

None of those are at the needed level of unit representation or level of force. Something like a streamlined ASL set up for miniatures would be great.

I hear you. I just was perusing the ASL page on BGG and thought about selling my collection! The prices for original materials are crazy!

[csadn]

There's an example where you need a wider table to keep the paperwork off the board and the giant soda!

Nah -- that's why you laminate the mapsheets. Then it doesn't matter if Jabba-the-Gamer spills his P-47-drop-tank-with-a-straw; a splash of water, and a couple of paper towels, job-well-done.

[Jack Aubrey]

Found a new unpunched exemplar of circus maximus at ebay; the counters are black and "white". Are there minis to play with the original board? Maybe from a 3D-Printer?
Colored counters with better drawings? Has somebody an idea? Please let me know it.

[DeRuyter]

Found a new unpunched exemplar of circus maximus at ebay; the counters are black and "white". Are there minis to play with the original board? Maybe from a 3D-Printer?
Colored counters with better drawings? Has somebody an idea? Please let me know it.

I am pretty sure my copy of the game came with colored counters because that was how you kept track of the teams. Having said that I painted up 15mm chariots and made a scaled up track out of felt cloth for my games. I don't think you'll find minis sized to play with the original board, although 5mm or 1/300 scale may work. You could try Heroics & Ros or Irregular miniatures for that, or Baccus which are better figures but a bit larger at 6mm. Personally I like the look of the larger chariots.

www.baccus6mm.com

Eric

[Jack Aubrey]

Yes, of course the counters are black and red, black and blue and black and "white" (like I wrote it in """")...but I mean counters with a better drawing, colored horses and so on.
But I will have a look at baccus..
Thanks.

[DeRuyter]

Ahh I see the B&W drawings. I have not seen colored counters for CM although I'll have to pull out my "Circus Minimus" game to see what the counters look like that came with it. Wait here is an image:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/2...circus-minimus

I believe you can use 6mm figures with the "Circus Minimus" game, although that has a different board especially in the corners. You can pick up the game cheaply, although it is sold out at Noble Knight at the moment.

[Jack Aubrey]

Yes, see this counters; they are better. Will have a look at the minis.
Thanks

[Nightmoss]

Just read this interview on the Wargamer website. While it's not a board game I think it sounds interesting and could be quite fun to play?

Interview: http://wargamer.com/article/3494/int...oper-interview

Pre-production specs: http://www.slitherine.com/games/Qvadriga_pc

Some 3D recreations of Roman Circus and other historical environments: http://www.youtube.com/user/gabaedu

The last link is fascinating. Enjoy!

[Gunner]

While I've kind of given up on PC games (makes the day disappear too fast). I might give this one a try when it comes out.

Thanks for the heads up, Jim.

[Jack Aubrey]

Just read this interview on the Wargamer website. While it's not a board game I think it sounds interesting and could be quite fun to play?

Interview: http://wargamer.com/article/3494/int...oper-interview

Pre-production specs: http://www.slitherine.com/games/Qvadriga_pc

Some 3D recreations of Roman Circus and other historical environments: http://www.youtube.com/user/gabaedu

The last link is fascinating. Enjoy!

Thanks, good informations.
Found a Circus Minimus game with colored counters; looks good.

[DeRuyter]

Just read this interview on the Wargamer website. While it's not a board game I think it sounds interesting and could be quite fun to play?

Interview: http://wargamer.com/article/3494/int...oper-interview

Pre-production specs: http://www.slitherine.com/games/Qvadriga_pc

Some 3D recreations of Roman Circus and other historical environments: http://www.youtube.com/user/gabaedu

The last link is fascinating. Enjoy!

The screen shots on the Slitherine web site look interesting. I like how the graphic shows the tracks of the chariot sliding in the corner. Looks like the focus of the game is on the campaign system (as opposed to multiplayer).

Sadly as Gunner noted PC games can be a big time suck!