CIRCVS MAXIMVS

[GreenLaborMike]

As to the _CW_ Reboot: Reed's already established it's going to be 2" scale -- which means zero backward compatibility with any previous edition, and no connection except the name to the game which ended up winning all those awards back-when. Reed has made exactly one decision so far, and has botched it. At this point, all which remains to be seen is how many more idiotic decisions they will make (if I see one more reference to "dice pools", "exploding dice", or any of the rest of the pseudo-video-game abominations infesting gaming these days...).

It says something that one can take an _OGRE_ player from 1977, time-warp him forward to 2014, put him in front of a gaming table with _OGRE Designer's Edition_ on it, and he will be playing within two minutes. Same applies to a _BattleTech_ player (the SL Tech may befuddle him a bit, but the basic rules remain the same). A _Car Wars_ player, tho'....

(I may not be able to call him on his idiocy on the SJG forum, but theirs is not the only forum.... >:) )

That's just it - it's a re-boot, not a re-print. This is neither a good thing or a bad thing, it just reflects the market reality. The tiny number of players who want old school Car Wars to be reprinted as-is is the main reason they are re-vamping the entire game.

SJG is hoping to expand the universe of Car Wars players way beyond those of us who remember the game fondly from the 80's. I don't mind that the scale has been increased (I wasn't aware that 2" had been settled on - just that it would be larger than 1" and less than 3", and 1.5" is the micro-machine scale that many old CW players had adapted the game to use) and to be fair, the decision was the result of fan voting in the CW Forum. It's also the case that all the new gamers they hope will play the game will have no loyalty to the old system.

And let's be clear, the tedium of actual gameplay in CW meant that a 30 second battle often took 3-4 hours to play. That's the part they want to streamline, and I whole-heartedly support that endeavor. If you like the current CW - great! There is so much classic (not to be confused with "Classic") CW material in the aftermarket to keep players happy for years and years. But I think the majority of CW fans agree that streamlining the game is an excellent idea - even if its impossible to get two CW fans to agree on exactly how the new CW should look.

The theme (car combat) is one that I am extremely surprised is not more popular in the game world. It's iconic and enduring (demolition derbies, Mad Max and Death Race movies, Car Wars and Interstate 76 computer games, etc.), and I don't understand why another company hasn't come along to fill the void that CW left when SJG stopped publishing it. SJG must be thinking the same thing if they plan to invest so heavily in re-launching CW. They wouldn't do it unless they felt it would be profitable to do so. They already had their "vanity" project (OGRE Designer's Edition), and now it's time for them to launch a new game line to complement Munchkin (SJG gets over half their revenue - maybe 75%? - from Munchkin alone) as a money-making game system.

As for the desirability of re-vamping the rules while capitalizing on the "name," the best comparison I can think of is the various iterations of D&D. Third Edition had little or nothing substantive in common with old school AD&D, but it was a wild critical and commercial success, even though there were countless screams and howls of protest that, whatever it was, it was NOT D&D.

In contrast, the equally draconian (pun intended) revision to Fourth Edition was a comparative disaster. It's the main reason that Pathfinder (aka "D&D 3.75") has now become (one of) the largest RPG's on the market today, and WOTC/Hasbro is scrambling to recapture market share with yet another edition of D&D.

Obviously, SJG is hoping for a "Third Edition" type of success. But it will be impossible for them to please everyone. I just hope that it becomes a commercial success so I can keep playing a game where I get to shoot machine guns at other cars.

[csadn]

That's just it - it's a re-boot, not a re-print. This is neither a good thing or a bad thing, it just reflects the market reality. The tiny number of players who want old school Car Wars to be reprinted as-is is the main reason they are re-vamping the entire game.

If they wanted to reflect "market reality" they'd have gone with either 1" or 3" -- in the discussions leading up to the vote on the topic, absolutely no one mentioned 2" as a option... yet somehow, it "won". Personally, I see Chicago-levels of Vote Fraud to ensure if the minis are produced, they will have to be bought through SJG.

SJG is hoping to expand the universe of Car Wars players way beyond those of us who remember the game fondly from the 80's.

You mean "the version which won all the awards, and helped put SJG on the map in the first place"? Can't imagine why they wouldn't want to reprint that, like they did with _OGRE_....

It's also the case that all the new gamers they hope will play the game will have no loyalty to the old system.

See above re the decision to use 2" scale -- clearly the vote was rigged to support lock-in over "hey -- I can buy a used edition off eBay, and have it work".

And let's be clear, the tedium of actual gameplay in CW meant that a 30 second battle often took 3-4 hours to play.

The longest turn of _CW_ I ever saw was ten minutes, and most of that was trying to find the actual wording of the rule in a copy of _CW Compendium_ where the index was badly off (the black-and-green edition -- *PTOOI*!). Even with people shooting, a turn typically took no more than 3-4 minutes. If no one was shooting, a turn could be whipped off in about 30 seconds.

The theme (car combat) is one that I am extremely surprised is not more popular in the game world. It's iconic and enduring (demolition derbies, Mad Max and Death Race movies, Car Wars and Interstate 76 computer games, etc.), and I don't understand why another company hasn't come along to fill the void that CW left when SJG stopped publishing it.

Two reasons:

1) Something like 50% of modern teenagers don't have driver's licenses -- and that number is increasing, between car costs, gas costs, and "Insurance: The White Man's Burden".

2) Computer gaming means kids who want to race cars can race them at 1:1 time-scale.

SJG must be thinking the same thing if they plan to invest so heavily in re-launching CW. They wouldn't do it unless they felt it would be profitable to do so. They already had their "vanity" project (OGRE Designer's Edition), and now it's time for them to launch a new game line to complement Munchkin (SJG gets over half their revenue - maybe 75%? - from Munchkin alone) as a money-making game system.

Bah -- _CW6_ is just another vanity project; the company can survive on _Munchkin_ alone (it's configured so that it can be sold to a player multiple times, like a CCG or CMG; whereas _CW_ was designed such that it could only be sold to a player once). As stated above: A scale was selected whose only obvious selling-point is, well, selling -- it allows minis to be cranked out in a scale which means "you can only buy from us".

The smart gaming companies -- GW most obviously -- have learned the "razor-blade" sales model is the only way for a gaming company to remain viable long-term. SJG is just following suit.

[GreenLaborMike]

If they wanted to reflect "market reality" they'd have gone with either 1" or 3" -- in the discussions leading up to the vote on the topic, absolutely no one mentioned 2" as a option... yet somehow, it "won". Personally, I see Chicago-levels of Vote Fraud to ensure if the minis are produced, they will have to be bought through SJG.



You mean "the version which won all the awards, and helped put SJG on the map in the first place"? Can't imagine why they wouldn't want to reprint that, like they did with _OGRE_....



See above re the decision to use 2" scale -- clearly the vote was rigged to support lock-in over "hey -- I can buy a used edition off eBay, and have it work".



The longest turn of _CW_ I ever saw was ten minutes, and most of that was trying to find the actual wording of the rule in a copy of _CW Compendium_ where the index was badly off (the black-and-green edition -- *PTOOI*!). Even with people shooting, a turn typically took no more than 3-4 minutes. If no one was shooting, a turn could be whipped off in about 30 seconds.



Two reasons:

1) Something like 50% of modern teenagers don't have driver's licenses -- and that number is increasing, between car costs, gas costs, and "Insurance: The White Man's Burden".

2) Computer gaming means kids who want to race cars can race them at 1:1 time-scale.



Bah -- _CW6_ is just another vanity project; the company can survive on _Munchkin_ alone (it's configured so that it can be sold to a player multiple times, like a CCG or CMG; whereas _CW_ was designed such that it could only be sold to a player once). As stated above: A scale was selected whose only obvious selling-point is, well, selling -- it allows minis to be cranked out in a scale which means "you can only buy from us".

The smart gaming companies -- GW most obviously -- have learned the "razor-blade" sales model is the only way for a gaming company to remain viable long-term. SJG is just following suit.

There's a lot of conspiracy in that theory. I'm not going to get into the speculation game - I can't get into Steve and Phil's heads. But it seems to discount the fact that Phil point blank said that minis will NOT be part of the core game. IF the game is successful in its own right, then they will consider adding miniatures. But they want a price point on the core game that allows sales in mass merchandisers like Target and Wal-Mart. This is the exact opposite of how Games Workshop operates, IMHO.

The fact also remains that sales of Car Wars dropped off precipitously in the 90's. Yes, SJG made a lot of mistakes that hastened its downfall (Scott Haring's departure was devastating for CW), but with all due respect, consumer tastes changed too. To be blunt, I'm very aware of how fast a turn in CW *can* go, but I'm also very familiar with how long an overall session usually takes - especially with four or more cars - and how little actually happened in the game during that span of time. And I played with a group of VERY experienced players. But it's not just my anecdotal experience - this has been the universal complaint about CW from day one. Yes, it's fun, but it's also S-L-O-W. If your games are sprint fests, that's awesome, but that is the very rare exception, not the rule.

Contrary to your theory about "kids" being sucked away by computer games, the fact is that board games and miniatures games are selling at record levels, and not just to old farts like us. The difference is that tastes have changed in the last 30 years. Successful games today tend to last 90 minutes or less, and have very little "downtime" between player turns. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the trend. If SJG can revise the CW rules to speed up gameplay so that a duel will *regularly* take 90 minutes (preferably 60) or less to complete, then I am all in favor of that.

Of course, YMMV. If and when SJG launches the Car Wars Kickstarter, I expect you will not support it, and that's your prerogative. Cheers!

[csadn]

Why is it only the white man's burden?

I was referencing this: http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_s...te_mans_burden .

There's a lot of conspiracy in that theory. I'm not going to get into the speculation game - I can't get into Steve and Phil's heads. But it seems to discount the fact that Phil point blank said that minis will NOT be part of the core game. IF the game is successful in its own right, then they will consider adding miniatures. But they want a price point on the core game that allows sales in mass merchandisers like Target and Wal-Mart.

I've heard that, as well (I have the "I Made Steve Jackson Work On _Car Wars_" shirt >:) ), but if you'll forgive a small pun: I ain't buyin' it.

For one: Have you seen what the game aisles at Target and Wal-Mart look like these days? Most of it is the same stuff I was seeing when I was 5-10 years old -- _LIFE_, _Scrabble_, etc. Newest game from an actual gaming company I've seen in there was _Apples to Apples_ (the LEGO board games aren't by Gamers). _CW_ isn't for 5-10-year-olds (despite CW5's best efforts...); I doubt the stores will take much interest.

This means we're back to "traditional gaming", which is the market _CW_ was originally intended for. And the traditionals are the ones who want either 1" or 3".

It's a plan set up to Fail, which means they can "Legitimately" say "There's no interest in _CW_ any more; so we aren't going to do anything with it henceforth".

The fact also remains that sales of Car Wars dropped off precipitously in the 90's. Yes, SJG made a lot of mistakes that hastened its downfall (Scott Haring's departure was devastating for CW),

Haring leaving was bad, this is true -- but the real problem was the Gang of Four who followed him: Blankenship's off-hours activities got SJG raided (read _The Hacker Crackdown_); Oines wouldn't accept submissions from anyone who wasn't his buddy (rumor is: When they opened his desk after he left, they found a year's worth of unopened CW mail...); Searle knew absolutely nothing about the product, and it showed; and Sheeley... oh dear god, Sheeley... whose policy was "If New Omaha Vehicular Assn, does it this way, then the Official Rule is to do it exactly the opposite". (Care to guess which CW group I was with at the time? Hint: "Wibble!" >:) )

but with all due respect, consumer tastes changed too. To be blunt, I'm very aware of how fast a turn in CW *can* go, but I'm also very familiar with how long an overall session usually takes - especially with four or more cars - and how little actually happened in the game during that span of time. And I played with a group of VERY experienced players. But it's not just my anecdotal experience - this has been the universal complaint about CW from day one. Yes, it's fun, but it's also S-L-O-W. If your games are sprint fests, that's awesome, but that is the very rare exception, not the rule.

The problem here is lack of editing -- the ever-increasing amount of "clag" in the rulebook, made worse by never having someone go through the manual and clear out the deadwood, leading to instances where two contradictory rules exist, or having to guess at how later-added Item A interacts with Rule Z. One decent editor performing a proper sweep-and-clear on the rulebook, and it would be down to maybe two pages for maneuvering and one for shooting. (I know -- I did a sweep-and-clear a while back; for obvious reasons, I can't publish it.)

Contrary to your theory about "kids" being sucked away by computer games, the fact is that board games and miniatures games are selling at record levels, and not just to old farts like us.

I keep hearing that -- but I wonder how much of it is actual new blood, and how much of it is "all the successful games work on the 'razor-blade' model" (which means the same game can be resold to a person multiple times). Heck, the population of the US increased 50% since 1983; if the percentage of Gamers dropped in that time, there'd still be more of them in terms of actual numbers. Not sure what the actual state of affairs is.

The difference is that tastes have changed in the last 30 years. Successful games today tend to last 90 minutes or less, and have very little "downtime" between player turns. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the trend. If SJG can revise the CW rules to speed up gameplay so that a duel will *regularly* take 90 minutes (preferably 60) or less to complete, then I am all in favor of that.

Length of a game session is an issue -- but as I pointed out: There's nothing wrong with original CW which can't be fixed with a editor who knows what he's doing and doesn't have an agenda. I actually did that -- knocked maneuvering down to 2 pages (and one of those is mostly the Crash Table -- note singular), and combat to 1. The only way to make it any shorter would be to copy-paste the Jump-Start Rules (and I admit to borrowing extensively from JS to find ways to speed events up).

As to whether I support it or not: It will depend on how far from Actual CW it gets, and how much additional stuff one gets in the stretch goals.

[Andy Blozinski]

1) Something like 50% of modern teenagers don't have driver's licenses -- and that number is increasing, between car costs, gas costs, and "Insurance: The White Man's Burden".
.

Why is it only the white man's burden?

Actually nothing you've stated above has anything to do with the large scale decrease in teenage interest in cars. Technology is the reason. Ever see two kids in a room texting each other? They socialize so much via the internet and phones that cars aren't that important to them any more. My kid is one of the few that was enthusiastic to drive. She has lots of friends with money for which driving just isn't important to them. Some of them are white and some aren't. When her boyfriend isn't driving her around in his Porsche 911, she's taxi driving them around. Sometimes they jam a few in his back seat.

[David Manley]

Personally, I see Chicago-levels of Vote Fraud to ensure if the minis are produced, they will have to be bought through SJG.

1:1000 vs 1:1200 anybody?

The smart gaming companies -- GW most obviously -- have learned the "razor-blade" sales model is the only way for a gaming company to remain viable long-term.

Look at how many times the various Flames of War scenario and background books get reprinted. And I got a slagging on another wargame forum when I dared to mention that in the 70s and 80s it was possible to get all the background, uniform and rules you needed for the Napoleonic Wars in a single volume whereas now apparently you need a new background book with theatre specific additional rules for what seems like every year and campaign of the wars

[7eat51]

Personally, I see Chicago-levels of Vote Fraud

Voting fraud in Chicago? Never. In the early '80s, I worked for the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners, and I can tell you that there was no voting fraud. Everyone, and I mean everyone, knew that dead people still voted, that all of the voting machines were programed to give "Democrat" on any ballot, that ballots would be lost and found as needed. None of this was fraudulent. It was simply the Chicago way.

whereas now apparently you need a new background book with theatre specific additional rules for what seems like every year and campaign of the wars

Why does the game Pathfinder come to mind? Disclaimer, I thoroughly enjoy Pathfinder, a lot.

You folks are making me interest in Car Wars. Stop it.

[Andy Blozinski]

1:1000 vs 1:1200 anybody?



Look at how many times the various Flames of War scenario and background books get reprinted. And I got a slagging on another wargame forum when I dared to mention that in the 70s and 80s it was possible to get all the background, uniform and rules you needed for the Napoleonic Wars in a single volume whereas now apparently you need a new background book with theatre specific additional rules for what seems like every year and campaign of the wars

The few times I've mentioned how FoW would be much better with one point system, instead of three differently pointed eras (and thus three sets of books to buy), I've got replies of how horribly nothing would function correctly and the whole game would be nastily broken. I then point out that the midwar books they have include tanks from before the war and tanks like the Panther and the Elephant (which is effectively not far from a King Tiger) all in one point system and most think the midwar books are the best pointed and balanced of them all. I also point out ASL had one point system that worked just fine. It's amazing how easily some people are trained to accept a substandard fate.

[DeRuyter]

The few times I've mentioned how FoW would be much better with one point system, instead of three differently pointed eras (and thus three sets of books to buy), I've got replies of how horribly nothing would function correctly and the whole game would be nastily broken. I then point out that the midwar books they have include tanks from before the war and tanks like the Panther and the Elephant (which is effectively not far from a King Tiger) all in one point system and most think the midwar books are the best pointed and balanced of them all. I also point out ASL had one point system that worked just fine. It's amazing how easily some people are trained to accept a substandard fate.

Like FOW

[Andy Blozinski]

Like FOW

I can't say I disagree with that. The reason I play the game is because I thought ASL was dead and this was the game everyone was playing. You can imagine my horror when, after having sold off all my ASL stuff only a month before, I went to a nearby convention and there were (30) people playing ASL. Oh the horror. Even several of the big FoW supporters in Texas have openly said they are looking for an alternative. It's just nuts that no one is even trying to present us with a competing product.

[David Manley]

Ever see two kids in a room texting each other? They socialize so much via the internet and phones .......

Actually, as an aside, it is aspects such as this which are revolutionising the design of modern naval and land based command systems. Something I'm quite pleased to be pushing, with my professional hat on