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Thread: Multiple Repair/Extinguish Fire/Pump Actions?

  1. #1
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    Default Multiple Repair/Extinguish Fire/Pump Actions?

    Based on the face that each ship mat only comes with one of each action, I assume you can't plan multiple actions of the same type. But is there a logical reason for this? If there are multiple fires on your ship, why couldn't you assign several portions of your crew to extinguishing those fires?

    I played a game recently where my ship was literally sinking, but I was only using half my crew actions, since my guns were loaded and there were no other ships in range. It was a little frustrating imagining half my crew standing idle, watching as the other half feverishly attempted to pump the rising flood waters and repair one of two gaping holes in the hull.

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    Game mechanics and balance I would think. If it helps about the rest of the crew standing around... some types its physically impossible to put more people to work on a job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    some types its physically impossible to put more people to work on a job.
    [nod] I can attest to this -- for ex.: If the pump capstan has eight bars, and each bar can accommodate a maximum four men, then the 33rd and subsequent men assigned to the capstan aren't going to be able to do anything except get in the way.

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    so i take it everyone agrees that the actions tokens available also limit the number of these actions that can be taken...

    what about doing repair actions when you have no damage, expecting that you'll get damage this turn and knowing that repair actions take a turn to come in effect... is this valid... I don't see anything against it in the rules, it would be like dedicating crew attention span to the damage that is about to occur...

    thanks
    Francisco

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    Quote Originally Posted by seldon View Post
    so i take it everyone agrees that the actions tokens available also limit the number of these actions that can be taken...

    what about doing repair actions when you have no damage, expecting that you'll get damage this turn and knowing that repair actions take a turn to come in effect... is this valid... I don't see anything against it in the rules, it would be like dedicating crew attention span to the damage that is about to occur...

    thanks
    Francisco
    I would say no to this. I think there would be far too much work to do going into battle to have a captain put part of is crew on standby to repair damage that has not occurred yet. Besides, how would he know where to have them at the ready before the damage happened. I think any time saved by standing by would be mostly lost with having to direct them to where and what the damage turned out to be.

    And then that would just feel like I was gaming the mechanics as well :angry:

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    Quote Originally Posted by seldon View Post
    what about doing repair actions when you have no damage, expecting that you'll get damage this turn and knowing that repair actions take a turn to come in effect... is this valid... I don't see anything against it in the rules
    I noticed and wondered about that very same thing. I think the reason this is possible is because you don't need to declare the repair when it starts but when it ends.

    For example: action phase 1 you have some hull damage so start a repair, then during the turn you lose a mast, next action phase you declare the mast fix even though the original intent was hull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmartin621 View Post
    I noticed and wondered about that very same thing. I think the reason this is possible is because you don't need to declare the repair when it starts but when it ends.

    For example: action phase 1 you have some hull damage so start a repair, then during the turn you lose a mast, next action phase you declare the mast fix even though the original intent was hull.
    Being able to switch repair types is a good point...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmartin621 View Post
    I noticed and wondered about that very same thing. I think the reason this is possible is because you don't need to declare the repair when it starts but when it ends.

    For example: action phase 1 you have some hull damage so start a repair, then during the turn you lose a mast, next action phase you declare the mast fix even though the original intent was hull.
    I'm not sure this is accurate. The rules regarding the repair action (page 31) read:

    "The player leaves the action counter, faceup, in the planned action box, until the Action phase of the next turn. During the Action phase of the next turn, the action is resolved. At this point the player can decide to:
    — repair normal damage
    — repair a leak
    — repair a damaged rudder
    — repair a broken mast."

    It seems to me the implication is you decide what you're repairing in the action phase, then that repair is finished at the end of the turn. Of course, the game doesn't specify any way to track or note that decision (for all repairs except normal damage, you just move the token to the special damage box). But I don't think the rules are intended to allow you to switch your decision at the end of the turn.

    Whenever I repair a special damage, I place the action counter in the special damage box and then place the special damage (leak, rudder, mast) on top of the token as a reminder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    [nod] I can attest to this -- for ex.: If the pump capstan has eight bars, and each bar can accommodate a maximum four men, then the 33rd and subsequent men assigned to the capstan aren't going to be able to do anything except get in the way.
    I think this makes sense, and thanks for the input. Would this also apply to extinguishing fires? Were there mechanical limits on a ship to how many men could participate in extinguishing fires? (a lack of buckets?)

    Honestly, I think you should be able to take the extinguish fire action even when there isn't a fire, and you should be able to "renew" that action from turn to turn, symbolizing keeping a portion of the crew ready to extinguish any fires. Not only does this make sense thematically, but fires in this game are BRUTAL. Assuming you can't play extinguish fire counter before there's an actual fire, every fire damage you take is guaranteed to eliminate two full damages boxes, even if you respond to it immediately. Taking two fires is a minimum of six damage boxes. And this damage can't be repaired. It's brutal.

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    Yes, you decide at the beginning of the second turn, not the first.

    So, I start a turn with hull damage and so plan the repair...presumably sending crew off to fix
    During the turn i get a leak.
    At the start of the next turn i take my leak damage
    During the planning phase of the next turn the counter stays
    During the action phase I now declare I'm fixing the leak even though the action, when originally laid, was for hull
    At the end of the turn, the leak is fixed.

    Maybe the first turn is forming the repair party and not 1/2 the work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmartin621 View Post
    Yes, you decide at the beginning of the second turn, not the first.

    So, I start a turn with hull damage and so plan the repair...presumably sending crew off to fix
    During the turn i get a leak.
    At the start of the next turn i take my leak damage
    During the planning phase of the next turn the counter stays
    During the action phase I now declare I'm fixing the leak even though the action, when originally laid, was for hull
    At the end of the turn, the leak is fixed.

    Maybe the first turn is forming the repair party and not 1/2 the work?
    Ah, I misunderstood--I thought you were saying you could decide what to fix at the end of the turn.

    But yeah, I agree with you: based on what's mechanically occurring, the first turn can't be doing any of the actual repair. So I think the easiest thematic explanation is, like you said, forming the repair party.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Crew management for example is at the higher end of the complexity scale for an Aos set of rules...
    I see what you mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldil View Post
    ...
    but fires in this game are BRUTAL
    ...
    They are, and they probably should be. I believe smaller, easy extinguishable fires aren't considered as Fires Aboard, and this rule applies only to bigger, not easy to controll, fires - ones which make serious damage to the ship.

  14. #14

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    The chance of pulling a fire counter isn't that small.

  15. #15

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    On a 7 chit broadside from a SOL, it would be roughly a 20% chance of starting a fire

    I must say, after some of the discussions, I'm seriously thinking about experimenting with a custom, "watered-down" chit set with more 0s, 1s and 2s mixed in

    I don't see any reason in the rules that you can't "pre-plan" extinguish actions, as some people have suggested, even when there isn't a fire going, just in case. Might be a good idea if you have the actions available...

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    I don't mind pre-planning, and I find it useful. It would simulate few small teams standing by.

    Also, "watering dawn" fire damage could be made using randomiser. For example, take one blank and 1 / 2 / 3 (or as much as you find propper) wind chits (or some other chit combo), facedown, and mix them together. If you draw Fire, ship is burning. If not, nothing happens. Or roll the dice. It's easy to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    Also, "watering dawn" fire damage could be made using randomiser. For example, take one blank and 1 / 2 / 3 (or as much as you find propper) wind chits (or some other chit combo), facedown, and mix them together. If you draw Fire, ship is burning. If not, nothing happens. Or roll the dice. It's easy to do.
    I like this idea. I think we will try making the fire chits a 50% probability tonight and see how that plays.

  18. #18

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    In about 5 games with advanced rules, fire has not been a huge factor. But it does seem to accentuate the existing high degree of randomness in the damage-allocation system. The one major fire victim I've had came when an undamaged Amazon frigate gained three A token from a long range potshot, and they were: 3/fire, 3/fire, 2. Three boxes gone, and even with an extinguish already planned, four more would inevitably be lost to fire. Plus an action consumed for three more turns. That was pretty much it for the frigate.

    But then I've seen similar results with, say, an unlucky 6 A-chit draw without any critical hits. I think right now I'm mostly trying to become zen with the wide swings of fortune, and maybe see them as historically accurate...

    As noted, I have been allowing extinguish actions to be "pre-planned" on spec, when there isn't a fire, and have been fairly pleased with that.

    As to whether this is allowed by the rules-as-written, there's some ambiguity. On page 30, it talks about how to handle an extinguish action, and says to leave the action face-up *if* there is a fire on board during the reloading phase. All well and good, however on page 29 this is called an "illegal action", and indicates that you need to discard the action during the planning phase, before the potential fire has started. So I think it has to be called a house rule. Still it seems a reasonable one representing active fire-prevention practices
    Last edited by fredmiracle; 05-23-2014 at 08:43.

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    We have been disallowing pre-planned because of page 29 but I think I we will try it out too. I like the idea of preparing for the worst heading into the fight while you still have the manpower to be able to prepare. I also thought making the fire 50% opens up a new opportunity for heated shot which could be 100%.

  20. #20

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    Here's what I did for fires at conventions and it worked out very well:
    The first turn, your fire extinguishing crew is trying to get it in control. It does damage as normal and you automatically lose a hull box. It's now under control after the first turn action. During the second turn, they've got it under control and now they're trying to put it out for good. They put it out for the second turn action and it's over.
    End result is that you now automatically only lose one hull, instead of two...as long as you keep the crew on it for the second turn. If you skip the second turn, well it just gets out of control again and does its usual fire damage thing again. Don't skimp.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski View Post
    Here's what I did for fires at conventions and it worked out very well:
    The first turn, your fire extinguishing crew is trying to get it in control. It does damage as normal and you automatically lose a hull box. It's now under control after the first turn action. During the second turn, they've got it under control and now they're trying to put it out for good. They put it out for the second turn action and it's over.
    End result is that you now automatically only lose one hull, instead of two...as long as you keep the crew on it for the second turn. If you skip the second turn, well it just gets out of control again and does its usual fire damage thing again. Don't skimp.
    I like this solution. It limits the fire damage, but you still have to use up an action for 2 turns. Of course if you take more than one fire damage or are damaged the situation could be very grave indeed. In certain circumstances you will need to pull away to effect repairs/put out the fire, which did happened historically.

    I will use this in our group game tonight.

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