The Navies of the Napoleonic Wars you are not likely to see in SOG.

[Berthier]

The Kingdom of Italy
When Venice was added to the Kingdom of Italy in 1806 their small navy came too and in 1808 the Kingdom of Italy's navy consisted of 3 frigates and 6000 personnel. Somewhat bloated with personnel and short on ships the road to promotion must have been interesting indeed.

Naples 1806-14
After the occupation of the region by France, Joseph Bonaparte was made King, later replaced by Murat when Joseph was "promoted" to King of Spain, a posting he did not want. The Navy of Naples at this time consisted of a handful of sloops and gunboats although a battalion of Marines of the Guard was also raised. Murat ensured all the crews and marines were smartly dressed as was his want, being a fashionista from way back in the Revolutionary days.

Prussia
With a large merchant fleet (the Hanseatic League) but no history of naval power, the various Frederick's having been pre-occupied with creating the greatest army in Europe, Prussia had no navy worth mentioning. There was a small coastguard to enforce the Continental system imposed by Napoleon, but the effieciency of that can be easily guessed.

Source: Navies of the Napoleonic Era by Digby Smith 2004. ISBN 9780764319884

[Naharaht]

I do not suppose that we shall see much of the Imperial Russian Navy either. Here is an extract from Wikipedia.

In the second half of the 18th century and early 19th century, the Russian Navy had the third largest fleet in the world after Great Britain and France. The Black Sea Fleet possessed five line-of-battle ships and 19 frigates (1787), the Baltic Fleet had 23 ships of the line and 130 frigates (1788).

[Gunner]

[/SIZE]

I do not suppose that we shall see much of the Imperial Russian Navy either. Here is an extract from Wikipedia.

In the second half of the 18th century and early 19th century, the Russian Navy had the third largest fleet in the world after Great Britain and France. The Black Sea Fleet possessed five line-of-battle ships and 19 frigates (1787), the Baltic Fleet had 23 ships of the line and 130 frigates (1788).

I hope ARES see's this post.

[Coog]

I think Russian ships would have a limited following. Ares is going to go after what will sell in the largest markets. We will see the British and French added to, with perhaps a Spanish ship or two that supplements those fleets. American ships will follow next as that is the market where the money is. Just look at WGF. The American SPAD VII and SE5a models are for aircraft that were of little use during the war but appeal to the American market.

[Comte de Brueys]

Can't comment on this thread without being whiped at the main mast.

[David Manley]

Can't comment on this thread without being whiped at the main mast.

Oh, go on, I know one of our US chums would appreciate it :)

[David Manley]

[/SIZE]

I hope ARES see's this post.

I would be astounded if we see Russian ships, or indeed anything other than British, French, Spanish and US ships in the first few years, if ever. Merchies and the odd pirate type as well, but none of the nations mentioned here (and I would put the Danes, Dutch/Batavians and Swedes in the list of "nice to haves" here in the queue ahead of Naples and Prussia - the Swedes in particular since they had some quite revolutionary concepts and designs thanks to af Chapman).

Of course you could always do what AoS gamers have been doing for the last 30+ years of so and repaint existing ships that are a close enough match. Not something that you can manage for the Swedish archipelago fleet, the Russian inshore fleet or the smaller Dutch/Batavians unless Ares do a decent 64 and even then it would be touch and go, but for more generic types its easily possible. I'm tempted to do something like that for a Portuguese fleet myself.

There's a good reason why the 1/1200 companies shied away from the "minor" navies, and why Rod Langton only got into the fascinating Swedish and Dutch fleets once he'd cracked the major players. whilst I would dearly love Ares to take a bold step and decide to model (for instance) the Swedish and Russian inshore fleets I'm almost certain that commercial pressures will not let that happen

[Gunner]

Don't forget the Turks. While poorly led, they had a descent sized fleet in the Black sea & Eastern Med. Many Russian/Turk battles.

[Gunner]

Oh, go on, I know one of our US chums would appreciate it :)

I was waiting for someone to come up with a similar comment.

[Diamondback]

Actually, while they'd still be short of the "signature" ships, using only the existing Waves 1 and 2 sculpts Ares could do some very respectable Dutch and Spanish SOL and frigate squadrons, and even some surprising frigate squadrons for Austria and various pre-modern Italian states.

I keep meaning to post a summary, but the problem is I keep forgetting to plug the right hard-drive into my laptop. :(

[csadn]

I do not suppose that we shall see much of the Imperial Russian Navy either. Here is an extract from Wikipedia.

In the second half of the 18th century and early 19th century, the Russian Navy had the third largest fleet in the world after Great Britain and France. The Black Sea Fleet possessed five line-of-battle ships and 19 frigates (1787), the Baltic Fleet had 23 ships of the line and 130 frigates (1788).

Yes, the Russians had the 3rd-largest fleet -- but they rarely did anything on the world stage with it. They spent most of their time slapping around (and occasionally getting slapped around by) the Swedes and Turks; there wouldn't be a fleet action featuring non-Swedish or non-Turkish units until 1827 (the Egyptians, British and French at Navarino).

Also: Most of that fleets was ships which at the moment are outside the purview of _SoG_ -- small units like sloops, brigs, xebecs (shebecks), galleys, and such. For example: At Vyborg, the Russians had 27 SoLs (64+ guns), 10 frigates (2 of which were "rowing frigates"), and 10 "smaller vessels"; the Swedes brought 21 SoLs, 8 "battle frigates" (40+ guns), 4 lighter frigates/sloops-of-war, 11 "smaller ships", and *200 or so* rowing galleys. (I suppose one could take the _WS&IM_ approach and group the small ships into one card....)

Finally: Look at how most battles in the area were conducted -- usually one side or the other is at anchor, and does not move at all. Great for solitaire; for 2+ players, less so.

While having eastern fleets might be "cool", in practical terms there's no money in it.

[Gunner]

Yes, the Russians had the 3rd-largest fleet -- but they rarely did anything on the world stage with it. They spent most of their time slapping around (and occasionally getting slapped around by) the Swedes and Turks; there wouldn't be a fleet action featuring non-Swedish or non-Turkish units until 1827 (the Egyptians, British and French at Navarino).

Also: Most of that fleets was ships which at the moment are outside the purview of _SoG_ -- small units like sloops, brigs, xebecs (shebecks), galleys, and such. For example: At Vyborg, the Russians had 27 SoLs (64+ guns), 10 frigates (2 of which were "rowing frigates"), and 10 "smaller vessels"; the Swedes brought 21 SoLs, 8 "battle frigates" (40+ guns), 4 lighter frigates/sloops-of-war, 11 "smaller ships", and *200 or so* rowing galleys. (I suppose one could take the _WS&IM_ approach and group the small ships into one card....)

Finally: Look at how most battles in the area were conducted -- usually one side or the other is at anchor, and does not move at all. Great for solitaire; for 2+ players, less so.

While having eastern fleets might be "cool", in practical terms there's no money in it.

????????

Russian Black sea & Med fleet in 1801,
1, 120 gun
1, 110
8, 100
3, 80
1, 78
26, 74
31, 66
1, 60
3, 44
6, 40
5, 38
2, 36
many smaller.

I have more Russian battles than I can ever play even with the most simple rules. (It was the Swedes that had the most oared ships)

Not to mention, SGN is not a Trafalgar friendly game.

[Berthier]

Russian fleet potted around the Med for some years and Russia occupied Corfu for a short time.

For an interesting insight into the quality of the Black Sea/Med Russian naval performance a quick read of Admiral Ushakov's bio below will enlighten

In 1798 Ushakov was promoted to full admiral and sent to the Mediterranean to support Suvorov's Italian campaign in command of a joint Russian-Turkish fleet. This expedition started with the conquest of the French departments in the Ionian islands, only acquired the year before from the demised Republic of Venice in the Treaty of Campo Formio, culminating in the siege of Corfu (1798-1799) and leading to the subsequent creation of the Republic of Seven Islands. Ushakov's squadron then blocked the French bases in Italy, notably Genoa and Ancona, and successfully assaulted Naples and Rome.
Emperor Paul of Russia, in his capacity as the Grand Master of the Order of St John, ordered Ushakov to proceed to Malta, which the British had besieged to no effect. Admiral Nelson could not bear the idea that he would have to follow Ushakov's orders (the Russian commander being his senior in naval rank) and suggested dispatching the Russian squadron to Egypt instead.





Brewing conflict between the commanders was prevented by Ushakov's being recalled to Russia in 1800, where the new Emperor, Alexander I, failed to appreciate his victories. Ushakov resigned command in 1807.... In the course of 43 naval battles under his command he did not lose a single ship and never lost a battle.

wiki

[Diamondback]

Also, IIRC Spain owned quite a few ex-Russian 74's, so those sculpts would have an immediate "Two-Fer" factor.

[Gunner]

Also, IIRC Spain owned quite a few ex-Russian 74's, so those sculpts would have an immediate "Two-Fer" factor.

Do you know if anyone knows, their names or what names the Spanish gave them?

[Diamondback]

Check the list of Spanish SOL's at Wikipedia--I think it had that info. I mean, they picked up like entire CLASSES secondhand...

[Coog]

Do you know if anyone knows, their names or what names the Spanish gave them?

Here's a list (Russians at the bottom):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._line_of_Spain

[Gunner]

Check the list of Spanish SOL's at Wikipedia--I think it had that info. I mean, they picked up like entire CLASSES secondhand...

Found them.
Fernando VII 74 (1813, ex-Russian Neptunus, sold 1818) - Stricken 1823------Trekh Sviatitelei class
Alejandro I 74 (1813, ex-Russian Drezden, sold 1818) - Stricken 1823-----------Selafail-class
Numancia I 74 (1813, ex-Russian Liubek, sold 1818) - BU 1823-------------------Selafail-class
España 74 (1811, ex-Russian Nord-Adler, sold 1818) - Stricken 1821-------------Selafail-class
Velasco 74 (1810, ex-Russian Trekh Sviatitelei, sold 1818) - Stricken 1821 -----Trekh Sviatitelei class

Thanks Diamondback. Really appreciate your help.

You too Coog.

[Berthier]

A whole swag more of Russian 74's got sold to Spain in 1818, not many lasted more than 3-5years. Russian ship building I believe was plagued by rushed building, unseasoned wood, poor maintenance. Incredibly wasteful use of expensive resources but they tended to build to need, not for longevity.

[Gunner]

A whole swag more of Russian 74's got sold to Spain in 1818, not many lasted more than 3-5years. Russian ship building I believe was plagued by rushed building, unseasoned wood, poor maintenance. Incredibly wasteful use of expensive resources but they tended to build to need, not for longevity.

I do remember reading something to that effect years ago that the Spanish weren't happy with the deal, but can't remember where.

[David Manley]

Caveat emptor. Buying second hand warships has always been a risky business. Seen it from the other side, selling to nations who have been burned purchasing "lemons" from less scrupulous countries

[csadn]

A whole swag more of Russian 74's got sold to Spain in 1818, not many lasted more than 3-5years. Russian ship building I believe was plagued by rushed building, unseasoned wood, poor maintenance. Incredibly wasteful use of expensive resources but they tended to build to need, not for longevity.

Bingo. _Russian Warships in the Age of Sail_ goes into more detail, but the short version of Russian naval building was "We need ships? Right -- churn out a bunch; doesn't matter if they last".

"In the course of 43 naval battles under his command he did not lose a single ship and never lost a battle." [wiki]

"43 naval battles"? There weren't 43 naval battles in the east in all the wars ever fought there combined, unless the writer there is including his land campaigns (siege of Corfu, for ex.). In fact, during the Napoleonic War era (1789-1815), there were a grand total of eight battles: Oland; Revel; Krasnaya Gorka; Vyborg; Kerch Straits*; Tendra*; Kaliakra*; Mt. Athos. He was present for three of them (marked *).

For data on the extensive number of oared ships in Russian service, see "The Inshore Squadron" section of _Russian Warships in the Age of Sail_. (Realize the Russians lost most of theirs to, of all things, dock fires in 1771, and 1796....)

[Berthier]

"43 naval battles"? There weren't 43 naval battles in the east in all the wars ever fought there combined, unless the writer there is including his land campaigns (siege of Corfu, for ex.). In fact, during the Napoleonic War era (1789-1815), there were a grand total of eight battles: Oland; Revel; Krasnaya Gorka; Vyborg; Kerch Straits*; Tendra*; Kaliakra*; Mt. Athos. He was present for three of them (marked *).

After training, he served on a galley in the Baltic Fleet. In 1768 he was transferred to the Don Flotilla (Azov Sea Navy) in Taganrog and served in the Russo-Turkish War, 1768-1774. He commanded Catherine II's own yacht, and later defended Russian trade ships in the Mediterranean from British pirate attacks. After the Russian Empire annexed Crimea (1783), Ushakov personally supervised the construction of a naval base in Sevastopol and the building of docks in Kherson. During the Second Russo-Turkish War (1787-1792) he brilliantly defeated the Turks at Fidonisi (1788), Kerch Strait (1790), Tendra (1790), and Cape Kaliakra (1791). In these battles, he demonstrated the excellence of his innovative doctrines in the art of naval fighting.


I'm assuming by "battles" they referred to were any conflict involving him even if only single ship actions. Thus many of those 43 may have been anti-piracy skirmishers, taking of single ships in the Black Sea during the various wars against the Turks etc. So perhaps a better term would have been actions not battles.

[Andy Blozinski]

We'll not likely see any oriental fleets.

[Gunner]

"43 naval battles"? There weren't 43 naval battles in the east in all the wars ever fought there combined, unless the writer there is including his land campaigns (siege of Corfu, for ex.). In fact, during the Napoleonic War era (1789-1815), there were a grand total of eight battles: Oland; Revel; Krasnaya Gorka; Vyborg; Kerch Straits*; Tendra*; Kaliakra*; Mt. Athos. He was present for three of them (marked *).

For data on the extensive number of oared ships in Russian service, see "The Inshore Squadron" section of _Russian Warships in the Age of Sail_. (Realize the Russians lost most of theirs to, of all things, dock fires in 1771, and 1796....)

you left out Gothland 7-17-1788, Svenskund 8-15-1789, Barosund 9-18-1789, Gulf of Finland 5-13-1790, Fredrikshann 5-15-1790, Hogland 5-26-1790, Svenskund Bay 7-9-1790. These are some from battles in the Baltic against the Swedes. I don't have the time to find or list the battles against the Turks in the Black sea.
The Russians didn't build such large fleets just to watch them "go bad in three to five years".
It's a shame the way Russians get bad press in the West.

And why I'm defending the Russians, I'll never know, being Polish myself.
My Grandmother couldn't say Russians or Germans without making a spitting sound.

[Gunner]

We'll not likely see any oriental fleets.

For that, you might have to settle for WizKids, Andy.