Pondering the limits of the game

[fredmiracle]

Hi all,

these are questions I've been wondering about, and can't really answer until I get my hands on the game. But, since some of you have it now, or have played at conventions, maybe some impressions are forming...

1) A 74 is a 74 is a 74?

How different are the various ships from each other? In WoG, I'm sure each airplane has quite different characteristics. But in SoG, will each SoL or frigate be much alike to the next one? Especially given the granularity of the statistics? Presumably the major differentiating factor was crew, but that might be covered in the inexperienced crew rules, scenarios and the crew/captain deck.

What I'm getting at is, if each 74 looks mostly like the next (i.e. "this one has cream colored sails instead of white so you can tell it from her sister"), and each one has mostly the same stats and sailing characteristics, how compelling will it be as they offer more of them in the future--other than just as a matter of feeding unhealthy compulsions?


2) Maneuver decks

On a related note, leaving aside oddballs like Xebecs and galleys, are the 4 maneuver decks about all we are going to see? How different are they from each other? Is there room for gradations inbetween? Will Constitution, Victory, a sloop, or a merchantman need a different deck?


3) How well is this game going to scale down? We know a sloop is coming, presumably at burden 1. Will this basically allow high-end sloops to play a supporting role in the frigate game? Or will the system actually be able to differentiate small ships and allow small-ship scenarios to be played out effectively?


Just filling time, but I'd be interested to hear what people think now that more real data is becoming available...

[Naharaht]

The plastic models may look alike apart from colouring but in real life they would have been different because there was little in the way of mass production techniques when they were built, so even sister ships had differences. Also as you say, the quality of the crew would affect the performance and individual modifications made by the ship's captain.

[fredmiracle]

they would have been different because there was little in the way of mass production techniques when they were built, so even sister ships had differences.

I'm very curious whether and how such changes are reflected in the game. Does the use of only 4 maneuver decks hamstring such differentiation, for example? Does each ship (in the same class) have small differences in their attitude-zones relative to the wind, and does this affect play meaningfully? Do small differences in armament get lost in the granularity of the cannon ratings?

[Coog]

The three American 44's are good examples of how ships of the same design can be so different. President was considered a very fine sailing ship while Constitution was not quite as good as President but still had good sailing qualities. United States however was a real dog earning her the nickname of "Old Wagon" because she handled so badly.

[Andy Blozinski]

If they want to introduce Carronades, they could do it with cards similar to the Captain/Crew decks as the quick reference and to keep away from rulebook digging.

[Diamondback]

Well, I know that Ares considers most of the 1777 French 32's "close enough" to share the Concorde sculpt, but I've been tearing into this a little deeper...

The Slade Common 74's and Temeraires are two distinct sculpts, representing the two most common designs built. I may quibble about some of the choices they made for stretching the Victory sculpt, but again between British first-rates and the French Oceans, two distinct sculpts with loads of extension possibilities that don't need a lot of stretching to do. The Hebe sculpt is different than the two Wave 1 frigates, maybe a skosh bigger despite that I seem to recall seeing at least one of the three Concordes upgunned into the 38/40-gun class and most of those 32's eventually up-armed into 36's, but again, since that class and its descendants and copies were the backbones of BOTH the French AND British medium-frigate forces, can get a ludicrous amount of mileage out of it with little to no stretching.

[Cmmdre]

The three American 44's are good examples of how ships of the same design can be so different. President was considered a very fine sailing ship while Constitution was not quite as good as President but still had good sailing qualities. United States however was a real dog earning her the nickname of "Old Wagon" because she handled so badly.

Quite true. That didn't seem to effect Decatur's victory over the Macedonian though. Decatur out maneuvered Carden in the "Old Wagon."

[fredmiracle]

The three American 44's are good examples of how ships of the same design can be so different. President was considered a very fine sailing ship while Constitution was not quite as good as President but still had good sailing qualities. United States however was a real dog earning her the nickname of "Old Wagon" because she handled so badly.

So do we have any idea yet what these kinds of differences will mean in game terms?

In other words: if my math is right, then for each of the models constructed in the first wave, there are 8 variants provided (counting the double-sided printing). Surely, as we've discussed, all 8 ships of a given class didn't have identical sailing characteristics. So is this something that shows up in the models and stat cards? Or does it fall within the "margin of error" given the game mechanisms, granularity of the game stats, production limitations, etc.?

[Nightmoss]

So do we have any idea yet what these kinds of differences will mean in game terms?

In other words: if my math is right, then for each of the models constructed in the first wave, there are 8 variants provided (counting the double-sided printing). Surely, as we've discussed, all 8 ships of a given class didn't have identical sailing characteristics. So is this something that shows up in the models and stat cards? Or does it fall within the "margin of error" given the game mechanisms, granularity of the game stats, production limitations, etc.?

As I understand it SoG's overall game design is somewhere between a 'naval simulation' and a 'beer and pretzels' game. It's intended to be intuitive, with easy access for average gamers not necessarily into 'counting rivets' (like Wings of Glory). That's not to say there isn't room for expanding on the rules and game detail because many are already discussing it. There are a number of threads that touch on your question and several folks here will no doubt be able to answer your inquiries better than I. As I'm more of a modeler than a gamer I'm likely to play basic games that allow me to 'blow stuff up' rather than try to recreate historical reenactments using the SoG ships.

Here's one thread I found that touches on the SoG design:

http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...ght=simulation

Cheers!

[fredmiracle]

As I understand it SoG's overall game design is somewhere between a 'naval simulation' and a 'beer and pretzels' game. It's intended to be intuitive, with easy access for average gamers not necessarily into 'counting rivets' (like Wings of Glory). That's not to say there isn't room for expanding on the rules and game detail because many are already discussing it. ...

Thanks for the link!

Honestly I'm happy for it not to be over-complicated. I have no problem if classes of ships are fairly generic (that is if a 74 is a 74 is a 74). Individual ships were different, in ways their captains cared about a lot--but perhaps such differences only played out at the margins, and not in more typical situations (?) And although I haven't seen the captain/crew deck, I'm imagining that it could supply a fair bit of the flavor of specific skippers and crews (in a way that could be easily extended).

However, if this is the case, then it seems to me that the "legs" for reprints will be a lot less (at least for me). From the KS I will have 12 SOL and 12 frigate models. In terms of numbers, that should just about get me through the biggest engagements I'm likely to fight. If a new 74 is issued, and it has, in effect, nearly identical stats/capabilities and a very similar appearance to the ships I already have, it will be harder for me to make a compelling case to buy it.

Not having played WoG, I'm not sure how planes are distinguished from one-another (in terms of gameplay), but am I correct in thinking each has their own maneuver deck? I was a little surprised they didn't do something similar with SoG--i.e. that seemed like the natural way to capture the subtle variations of sailing characteristics between different ships...

[Gunner]

I'm not a fan of each ship of the same class being different from each other, unless a point system is used for a campaign. If the ships are more or less generic, it's the player that wins the battle, not the ship.

[Nightmoss]

Thanks for the link!

Honestly I'm happy for it not to be over-complicated. I have no problem if classes of ships are fairly generic (that is if a 74 is a 74 is a 74). Individual ships were different, in ways their captains cared about a lot--but perhaps such differences only played out at the margins, and not in more typical situations (?) And although I haven't seen the captain/crew deck, I'm imagining that it could supply a fair bit of the flavor of specific skippers and crews (in a way that could be easily extended).

However, if this is the case, then it seems to me that the "legs" for reprints will be a lot less (at least for me). From the KS I will have 12 SOL and 12 frigate models. In terms of numbers, that should just about get me through the biggest engagements I'm likely to fight. If a new 74 is issued, and it has, in effect, nearly identical stats/capabilities and a very similar appearance to the ships I already have, it will be harder for me to make a compelling case to buy it.

Not having played WoG, I'm not sure how planes are distinguished from one-another (in terms of gameplay), but am I correct in thinking each has their own maneuver deck? I was a little surprised they didn't do something similar with SoG--i.e. that seemed like the natural way to capture the subtle variations of sailing characteristics between different ships...

You'll get better answers from folks like David, DB, and others here than you will from me when it involves the more technical aspects of the game, or naval gaming in general. I've only played one or two demos and just briefly scanned the rules, but I do think your questions/observations will be addressed via the ship cards, future maneuver decks, crew cards and/or captain cards?

"Legs" for reprints might not be a big focus right now as they've planned for completely new ships in the upcoming waves, which should add to the overall appeal of the game; 1st rates SoLs, merchants, smaller frigates and eventually some pirates?

The special editions of the Victory and Constitution should be interesting not only for the sculpts but for the ship statistics cards that will come with them. Seeing how Ares handles these ships might be a clue to how they handle reprint issues with ships of a similar rating (Britannia, Royal Sovereign, etc.)?

[7eat51]

Not having played WoG, I'm not sure how planes are distinguished from one-another (in terms of gameplay), but am I correct in thinking each has their own maneuver deck?

With WoG, each type of plane has a specific maneuver deck; so all Camels, for example, use the same deck. There are some plane types that share a given deck. For SoG, the closest comparison would be class of ship, for example, the Arrogant-class ships of the line. Whether the maneuver deck would be sufficiently different for Bellona- or other-class ships of the line, I do not know.

[csadn]

Quite true. That didn't seem to effect Decatur's victory over the Macedonian though. Decatur out maneuvered Carden in the "Old Wagon."

Indeed -- while there's many quotes about _US_'s "bad sailing qualities", I can't find any data which indicates it was any better or worse than average.

[swarbs]

There were certainly differences between sister-ships, but I don't think that those differences are necessary to add into the game. For example, a ship with a 0.1 knot advantage in speed will make a big difference if it's engaged in a 2 day stern-chase, as would a ship that can point 2 degrees closer to the wind. In the scale of an engagement where both sides start close to each other and have resolved to fight (and in a confined space of water) those things matter so little as to be insignificant (especially since most lines of battle limited their speed to the slowest member of the line).

If the game was going to model the whole age of sail, most of the engagements would be one side running from the other, or one side searching for the other in the entire expanse of the North Atlantic. But when two sides are resolved to fight, then Sails of Glory is perfectly adequate (more than that really great) when it comes to simulating that.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's not just the maneuver decks, but also the ship bases (see how the red area of the frigates is smaller than the ships of the line) that make differences. A ship could use the same deck as another, but have a different veer rating that would make a difference. There ARE differences between the decks for the two types of 74, and those seem big enough to leave room for more maneuver decks. And playing with the more advanced rules will also yield a bigger difference between each type of ship. The liners definitely feel clumsier than the frigates when you have to pre-plan a movement card.

Also, it should be noted that the picture of the 'sloop' on kickstarter was of a three-masted sloop of war - so their burden could be 2, but with fewer boxes to fill than the frigates. Just conjecture, but it would leave room for even smaller ships as well.

All in all, it seems too early in the game's life to be looking for limitations.

[David Manley]

I don't think there are "limits" at the lower end of the scale, but there are definitely limited opportunities to represent differences in ship types with the snall span in burden and gunnery factors to play with. Should be fairly straightforward to house rule though by opening up the span when playing solely with 5th rates and smaller. I did something similar with Warhammer Trafalgar and Form Line of Battle, both of which worked pretty well

[fredmiracle]

I was surprised to see that each ship model comes with its own deck included in the package. I guess that makes sense, but it wasn't clear to me that this would be the case until I got the package. So there's definitely room for each new class of ship to have a slightly different maneuver deck, if Ares decides to go that way with it...

[Devsdoc]

I don't think there are "limits" at the lower end of the scale, but there are definitely limited opportunities to represent differences in ship types with the snall span in burden and gunnery factors to play with. Should be fairly straightforward to house rule though by opening up the span when playing solely with 5th rates and smaller. I did something similar with Warhammer Trafalgar and Form Line of Battle, both of which worked pretty well

I saw your stuff on G.W. Trafalgar for house rule in M. Wargames mag. You said you would keep your powder dry on the 5th rate and smaller. If you have done work on this part of the rules could you share? I liked what you did in Form Line of Battle.
Be safe
Rory

[Gunner]

All I ask for (for now) is a French 80 and a British 64.

[Nightmoss]

All I ask for (for now) is a French 80 and a British 64.

Why those ships, Ed? Do you have a particular engagement you're working towards?

[Coog]

All I ask for (for now) is a French 80 and a British 64.

That's a negative Ghost Rider. We need US 38's and sloops.

[Gunner]

Why those ships, Ed? Do you have a particular engagement you're working towards?

One that probably will never be played using SGN rules. Trafalgar. But I'd like to try it using Flying Colors.
Why take forever building and painting a white metal fleet when Ares can do the work.
And the 80 can be used for other battles including the Glorious First of June as the Juste.
The 64 can be used as the HMS Lion that was part of a squadron that unsuccessfully tried to stop the French ships carrying Rochambeau's troops to America.
Just to name a couple.

And yes Bobby, AFTER the 38's and sloops.

[Pseudotheist]

1) A 74 is a 74 is a 74?

How different are the various ships from each other? In WoG, I'm sure each airplane has quite different characteristics. But in SoG, will each SoL or frigate be much alike to the next one? Especially given the granularity of the statistics? Presumably the major differentiating factor was crew, but that might be covered in the inexperienced crew rules, scenarios and the crew/captain deck.

What I'm getting at is, if each 74 looks mostly like the next (i.e. "this one has cream colored sails instead of white so you can tell it from her sister"), and each one has mostly the same stats and sailing characteristics, how compelling will it be as they offer more of them in the future--other than just as a matter of feeding unhealthy compulsions?

After a brief survey, it appears all ships of the same "class" share not only the same maneuver deck, but also the same burden, veer, and total damage capacity (both hull & crew). The other stats on most tend to be remarkably similar, with the biggest standout I've found being the Redoubtable having an extra point on the aft broadside for the first 7 slots over her sister ship Genereux, with all other stats being equal. That seems to be an outlier though.

The most interesting variation I've found is La Concorde, who trades away a point of fore & aft broadside on her 4th slot, and beam broadside on her 6th to her sister ship Corageuse in exchange for an extra point of musket firepower up front. It probably doesn't work out to a balanced trade-off in the end, but at least it's a trade.

Honestly, I would've liked to have seen a little more variety in the stats over all, but I would like to have seen it done such that one ship in each pack had the fleet standard stats.

[Coog]

I would like to see a British 64 for HMS Africa. I always wanted to see how close a battle it would have been between her and an American 44.

[Gunner]

I would like to see a British 64 for HMS Africa. I always wanted to see how close a battle it would have been between her and an American 44.

I know that there was a 64 in American waters. Was it the Africa?

[Coog]

I know that there was a 64 in American waters. Was it the Africa?

At the outbreak of the war, she was the only SOL in the Halifax squadron under the command of Captain John Bastard. I don't think she ever sailed alone. She was part of the chase of Constitution but lagged behind the British frigates. Although she was a larger ship, Captain Philip Broke of HMS Shannon commanded the squadron instead of Bastard.

[Coog]

This is how Africa and United States would have matched up:

Africa - Captain John Bastard

Weight: 1379 tons
Length: 159'
Beam: 44' 4"
Armament:
26 x 24 longs
26 x 18 longs
10 x 4 longs
2 x 9 longs

United States - Captain Stephen Decatur

Weight:1576 tons
Length: 175'
Beam: 43' 6"
Armament:
32 x 24 longs
24 x 42 carronades

[Gunner]

Looks like if the Constitution could have closed on Africa my money would be on the Constitution's carronades.
That would be a good scenario.

[Coog]

Looks like if the Constitution could have closed on Africa my money would be on the Constitution's carronades.
That would be a good scenario.

That was USS United States. United States, like President, had 42-pounder carronades. Constitution only carried 32-pounder carronades.

[Diamondback]

Actually, we need both... Tonnant/Bucentaure 80's figure big under both British and French flags in many battles, but we also need lots of sloops and brigs for small-ship actions.

Don't forget, we ARE getting a Swan-class sloop in Wave 2... I would've preferred a Cruizer myself as it fills out more OrBats, but it is what it is.

[Gunner]

Then I might have to reconsider my wager. But it would still be a great scenario.

[Gunner]

The bottom line is we need to help make SGN grow so Ares can make us all happy.

[Coog]

Don't forget, we ARE getting a Swan-class sloop in Wave 2... I would've preferred a Cruizer myself as it fills out more OrBats, but it is what it is.

I agree with you. The Swan class sloops, like most of the ships being produced, are more pre-Napoleonic and fit in better during the time period of the American Revolution than the early 1800's.

[Coog]

I am wondering if Ares will produce any models of the French Hebe class frigates as British Leda class frigates since they were copies of the Hebe. If not at least we will a good repaint option. You could have HMS Tenedos 38 and HMS Shannon 38 vs. USS Constitution 44 for a "it could have happened battle" and a test of the order for British 38's not to engage American 44's with only one 38 after the three losses in 1812.

[David Manley]

I am wondering if Ares will produce any models of the French Hebe class frigates as British Leda class frigates since they were copies of the Hebe. If not at least we will a good repaint option. You could have HMS Tenedos 38 and HMS Shannon 38 vs. USS Constitution 44 for a "it could have happened battle" and a test of the order for British 38's not to engage American 44's with only one 38 after the three losses in 1812.

Almost certainly. And it would be interesting to see whether a tie in with the Trincomalee in the UK would be worth considering. It would be nice to think that at some point copies of SGN would be on sale in the museum gift shop, same with the Constitution

[Diamondback]

Bobby, I've specifically pointed that out to Andrea both in direct email, and in my "potential reprints" spreadsheet I've built and sent him.

Hebe also doubles as the Hortense, Virginie and Pallas family of 40/44's... all of which are successive improvements on the same basic design just like the Bellona/Arrogant/Edgar/Elizabeth/etc. Slade Common 74's.

@David: Right, and also HMS Unicorn even though she was never brought into full commission or hoisted a sail.

[Coog]

Honestly, I have not been overly excited with the series 1 ships. However, the Hebe class model and all the possibilities for British 38's really peaks my interest.

[David Manley]

Honestly, I have not been overly excited with the series 1 ships. However, the Hebe class model and all the possibilities for British 38's really peaks my interest.

+1 The selection of the frigates in series 1 has caused more than a little head scratching in some quarters.

[tmon]

In my opinion the inclusion of frigates as part of the series 1 ships was logical. Ares wasn't creating a major fleet action game, they were trying to create a well rounded game that was centered on history. There were quite a few more frigate and sol battles in history then major fleet actions.

+1 The selection of the frigates in series 1 has caused more than a little head scratching in some quarters.

[Coog]

In my opinion the inclusion of frigates as part of the series 1 ships was logical. Ares wasn't creating a major fleet action game, they were trying to create a well rounded game that was centered on history. There were quite a few more frigate and sol battles in history then major fleet actions.

I believe what David is saying, as was my inference, is not that there were frigates in Series 1, but which frigates were selected.

[Nightmoss]

The bottom line is we need to help make SGN grow so Ares can make us all happy.

I can't imagine most folks who initially pick up this game as having the historical background knowledge that I see in this and other Anchorage threads. This could be a barrier to expanding the game if Ares and others can't educate the public to the wealth of differences that exist in this product and how that's going to translate into interesting gaming? Like Ed said, if this game doesn't sell to a broad base we're not going to get the additional ships for expansions.

[David Manley]

I believe what David is saying, as was my inference, is not that there were frigates in Series 1, but which frigates were selected.

Quite correct :)

[David Manley]

I can't imagine most folks who initially pick up this game as having the historical background knowledge that I see in this and other Anchorage threads. This could be a barrier to expanding the game if Ares and others can't educate the public to the wealth of differences that exist in this product and how that's going to translate into interesting gaming? Like Ed said, if this game doesn't sell to a broad base we're not going to get the additional ships for expansions.

I guess that could be an issue. What might be handy would be a page of links and book references on the Ares website and here (both factual and fictional, since I imagine a good number will have as much, if not more of an interest in the likes of Bolitho, Drinkwater and Ramage as in Cochrane, Decatur and Villeneuve) that those wishing to bone up on historical aspects could consult). There are some excellent introductory books on age of sail navies - as well as some thunderous and quite exceptional tomes.

Also a goodly supply of scenarios. Much as I dislike the idea of "spoonfeeding" players (dammit, I made my own by reading up on stuff rather than relying on a scenario book, why shouldn't everyone: ) I can see the value in getting ab initio players involved and interested quickly.

[csadn]

+1 The selection of the frigates in series 1 has caused more than a little head scratching in some quarters.

Get the one-offs out of the way first; then move on to "mass-production" designs. :)

[Diamondback]

Actually, when you look at it's "stretch" mileage the Concorde is a fair choice... its designer's brother ALSO had a class of 32's built at the same time in the same yard, and it's a safe bet that the Chevillards probably compared notes over the dinner table. Plus it's fairly close to the 1777 Magicienne class, which is a HUGE pool under both French and British flags.

The 1773 Amazon... while it doesn't have the "stretch" of the Concorde or Hebe, it's still a pretty respectable-size class in itself. My best guess... they were probably looking for a couple ships with overall similar stats that would balance each other yet still have some distinguishing stat differences.

My personal hope is that Wave 3 will see a Hebe re-run as the Leda class and a French sloop, along with either two Second Rates or a British 90-98 and a Tonnant/Bucentaure 80. (Technically, 80's are Third Rate, but the French didn't have much in the 90-98 range, preferring instead to jump straight from 80's to 100-pluses like the Oceans.)

[Andy Blozinski]

I wouldn't mind some 64s. Heavier frigates are going to be nice.

[The Mad Hatter]

While I know the number is very small, I'd still love to see some of the British super frigates make an appearance. The razee'd 64's would be great, given my choice I'd love to see the Indefatigable make an appearance - along with the great Sir Edward Pellew!

As a side note, for anyone heavily interested in the various classes of frigates, their development, and performance I HIGHLY recommend Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars by Robert Gardiner. The book is a little pricey, but by far one of the best books in my library!

[Bellerophon]

Yeah, it'd be interesting to see some Xebecs eventually as well.

[David Manley]

As a side note, for anyone heavily interested in the various classes of frigates, their development, and performance I HIGHLY recommend Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars by Robert Gardiner. The book is a little pricey, but by far one of the best books in my library!

I recall it was reprinted as a paperback a few years back, and was available for fairly reasonable prices. and I agree, well worth tracking down and getting a copy if you can find one sensibly priced.

[The Royal Hajj]

Thanks for the heads up on the book guys, but at about $80 used, I'll have to pass for a while.