Help with decals.

[Keel-hauled]

Hello Mates! It's been a while since I visited this port. I come now requesting assistance. My father (now 85) was a "Tin Can Sailor", having served in 1946-1948 aboard the USS George K. Mackenzie, DD836; a US destroyer, for those not familiar with the hull number and designation.

He expressed interest in his old ship recently, so I found her history at the 'Tin Can Sailors Association' site; a great place to look for information on any US destroyer. But this research peaked my interest in doing something more for him. I ordered a 'Dragon' kit of a 1/350 Gearing class destroyer (USS Chevalier, DD808), that I intend to build as the Mackenzie and present to him for his next birthday. Since she is very close in hull number (and pics verify a same hull and superstructure), it would appear that she'll (the Chevalier) be a nice build-up as the Mackenzie.

What I lack, of course, are proper decals. Can anyone help me? I'll need white 1/350 numbers (a set of larger [bow] and a set of smaller) as appeared on the hull, fore and aft. I think I'll also need the ship name in the same scale. Does anyone know?....didn't the name appear on the stern of these tin cans? I have no skill or way of making them myself, but would be pleased to handsomely pay anyone who could supply said decals. :)

Can anyone help?

Thanks!
Walt

[7eat51]

Hi Walt,

My wife, Sue (ling) is willing to design the decals in whatever format you need. You can then take the file to a print shop, like Kinkos, and have them printed off. Depending upon how soon you need these, we might be able to print them as well - we'll be purchasing a color printer that can do decals.

Welcome back,
Eric

[Capt P]

Walt I have an ONI (Office of Naval Intel) ship ID book issued 11/43 that lists the Mackenzie as DD614, a Benson class DD. I will scan the page for you to see and then post it.

[Capt P]

This is the cover of the book I got the information from. As you can see it is old.

[Capt P]

This is the page with the ship list.


And the page with 4 pictures of a Benson class DD.

[Capt P]

The Gearing class must have been after this list was published as I don't see any listing for that class. I thought Fletches were the last class of DD's but Gearings must be later.

[Capt P]

Just checked and you are correct. There were two ships with the named Mackenzie. The one I mentioned was named after Alexander Mackenzie and was a pre war DD. The one you dad was on was a late war DD. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

[Coog]

The Gearing class must have been after this list was published as I don't see any listing for that class. I thought Fletches were the last class of DD's but Gearings must be later.

The Sumner and very similar Gearing class destroyers followed the Fletcher class. They stand out because they have twin 5" guns in their turrets instead of the single 5". Modified Gearings were used into the Vietnam War.

[Keel-hauled]

Yes, Coog is correct. Dad's ship, DD836 George K. Mackenzie, was christened 05/13/45 and commissioned 07/13/45. She served until decommissioned on 10/01/76. Like many Gearing class destroyers she saw significant changes to her gunnery and superstructure in her lifetime, but not while my Dad was on her. So I'll be building her in her new post-WW II form.

Ironically, the Mackenzie, one of whose main functions was to hunt submarines, was named after a submariner; an honor unique to her I beleive.

The Sumner and very similar Gearing class destroyers followed the Fletcher class. They stand out because they have twin 5" guns in their turrets instead of the single 5". Modified Gearings were used into the Vietnam War.

[Keel-hauled]

Interestingly enough, your screen name (Capt P) could easily describe me; as I retired after a career-ending line-of-duty injury as a regular Army Captain (and my last name is Powell). Many of my soldiers and NCOs called me "Captain P". My First Sergeant, however, (a Vietnam Vet) simply called me "Die-we"...I've spelled it phonetically... (vietnamese for Captain); and I was honored that he did so.

[Keel-hauled]

Eric and Sue,

I'm touched by your most generous offer! I would be extremely pleased if the two of you were willing to get on board with my project. There is no rush; I just ordered the model kit. And, being an amateur modeller, it will take me a while before I'm anywhere near being ready to affix decals.

I don't know how to upload pictures, but if you search on-line under her name and hull ID, you will find several pictures of the Mackenzie. If you don't, any 1946-48 picture of a Gearing-class destroyer will give you an idea as to size, shape and locations of her numbers (and name?). As I mentioned in my first post, Eric, I know I'll need decals for the two 836's on the port and starboard sides of the bow, as well as those on both sides of the stern. I'm not sure if the ship's name appears on the stern; no one has confirmed or denied that. They would need to be in the kit scale of 1/350.

I'm so thrilled that you are willing to design these, Sue! I'm hoping to surprise Dad on his 86th birthday (April 2nd, 2014) with the finished model. Please let me know what the cost in development, research, time and labor will be (and perhaps your favorite wine) and I'll be most pleased to compensate you and Eric. :) Respectfully yours, Walt.

Hi Walt,

My wife, Sue (ling) is willing to design the decals in whatever format you need. You can then take the file to a print shop, like Kinkos, and have them printed off. Depending upon how soon you need these, we might be able to print them as well - we'll be purchasing a color printer that can do decals.

Welcome back,
Eric

[7eat51]

Hi Walt,

We'll be in touch this week.

Glad to be of assistance,
E&S

[Keel-hauled]

Hi Susan!

I got your PM, but was unable to open the sample which you attached. I can tell you for sure that the picture that 'Coog' posted IS a Gearing-class destroyer and (in the configuration shown in his picture) is identical to Dad's ship when he was aboard her. The numbers on the bow are that same large size and font on both sides of the bow (front). The same numbers and font appeared on both sides of the right (starboard) and left Port) sides of the stern (or rear) of the ship, BUT IN A MUCH SMALLER FONT. I have yet to find out if the ship's name appeared in a smaller font still on the stern.

[Keel-hauled]

Coog,

The picture you provide (of the USS Gurke) is indeed a Gearing-class destroyer; like Dad's "Mac" (or DD836 Goerge K. Mackenzie). In fact, the larger numbers on the port and starboard sides of the bow (smaller numbers on the same locations of the stern) are precisely how they appeared on the "Mac" when dad served on her. As you probably already know, when the Geraings underwent FRAM, they removed the rearmost twin 5" gun mount on the fore of the ship and the superstructure saw significant modifications. The missing front turrent is an easy way to tell if the Gearing-class destroyer pictured is post-FRAM or before. In the case of the "Mac", she was FRAMed in 12/63.

Do you know: would the ship's name have appeared on the stern at this time?

Walt

[Coog]

Do you know: would the ship's name have appeared on the stern at this time?

Walt

I believe they did in all black letters. Here is a photo of Gearing class. You can see the name in small letters:

[Coog]

Here is another photo of a model of the Gearing:

[Keel-hauled]

Hello again, Susan!

Sorry, but I seem to be having difficulty with PMs. Take a look at the two pics that 'Coog' just posted of the stern (back or rear) of a Gearing-class destroyer. You'll see the smaller numbers on both sides of the of her. Also, it DOES appear as though the ship's name appeared on the stern; in black and a smaller font still.

[Keel-hauled]

Thanks 'Coog'...very helpful in the extreme! It appears that only the last name of the ship's christened moniker was placed on the stern; in the case of Dad's ship MACKENKIE only...........not "Goerge K. Mackenzie" as I had thought.

[Diamondback]

For a font, check out "Amarillo USAF"--it might be a good start for creating appropriate numbering. Just need to figure out whether the name font is Navy-beloved Long Beach or something else, how big the letters and numbers are fullsize, and what point-size to make them for correct scale size.

[Coog]

It appears that only the last name of the ship's christened moniker was placed on the stern; in the case of Dad's ship MACKENKIE only...........not "Goerge K. Mackenzie" as I had thought.

I'm not sure about that. The Benson class MacKenzie and the Gearing class George K. MacKenzie were named after different MacKenzies. Also the Benson class MacKenzie was still in service when the George K. MacKenzie was commissioned.

Here is a photo of the Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., a Gearing class. Notice that the full name, including the "Jr." is on the stern.

[Coog]

Here is another Gearing, the Frank Knox, taken on 5 Sep 46. The full name is used but it is in white instead of black and the numbers don't have the black shadowing.

[Nightmoss]

Not sure if this website will be of help, but it's a spot I frequent when building ship models? Didn't see any photos specifically from World War 2, but many after the war.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/836.htm

[Diamondback]

Name lettering looks like a variant of Copperplate Gothic, also seen for the first several seasons as the title font for NCIS.

[Diamondback]

Also, check out these references from official Navy specs...

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/label/#pg28

[Keel-hauled]

I'm not sure about that. The Benson class MacKenzie and the Gearing class George K. MacKenzie were named after different MacKenzies. Also the Benson class MacKenzie was still in service when the George K. MacKenzie was commissioned.

Here is a photo of the Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., a Gearing class. Notice that the full name, including the "Jr." is on the stern.

Coog,
yes, from what I have researched so far, the George K. Mackenie had her full name across her "fantail"; probably for the reason that you stated (to differentiate between her and the Benson-class "Mackenzie". Thanks for the pics! ---Walt

[Keel-hauled]

Excellent picture, Nightmoss; and one of the "Mighty Mac" that I hadn't seen! The Mackenzie WAS a post WW II destroyer, though Gearing-class destroyers had been designed for the needs of (and from lessons learned in) WW II. This picture is very likely dated from the 1946-1948 timeframe that I'm modeling, so it's a great find. Thank you! ---Walt

Not sure if this website will be of help, but it's a spot I frequent when building ship models? Didn't see any photos specifically from World War 2, but many after the war.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/836.htm

[Keel-hauled]

Eric and Susan,

I'm still trying to figure out why I can't send (but CAN receive) PMs. 'Coog' and 'Nightmoss' have now supplied some very essential data with the pictures they just posted. I hope these help you. I have finally determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Mackenzie had her full name (GOERGE K MACKENZIE) painted in black block letters across her fantail; that the numbers on both sides of her bow were white with black edging and of the larger variety; while she displayed the same style of numbers on both side of her stern, but they were much smaller. As to the scale questions that you have: I wonder if it would be wiser for me to wait until the model kit arrives, then send you the decals that it comes with. That would provide you with a template for size and scale; all you'd be changing (hopefully) would be the ship's name and a couple of the numbers. What do you think? ---Walt

[ling]

The photos and info here are great and will help indeed!

...I wonder if it would be wiser for me to wait until the model kit arrives, then send you the decals that it comes with. That would provide you with a template for size and scale; all you'd be changing (hopefully) would be the ship's name and a couple of the numbers. What do you think? ---Walt

Walt: Sounds like a plan, let's do that. [I think the PM attachment is my fault as I placed it in a private album]

[Nightmoss]

Excellent picture, Nightmoss; and one of the "Mighty Mac" that I hadn't seen! The Mackenzie WAS a post WW II destroyer, though Gearing-class destroyers had been designed for the needs of (and from lessons learned in) WW II. This picture is very likely dated from the 1946-1948 timeframe that I'm modeling, so it's a great find. Thank you! ---Walt

Walt, according to the caption on the photo I linked that pic was taken in 1974. "February 19 1974 at San Diego, USS George K. MacKenzie (DD-836) with USS Higbee (DD-806) outboard. Photo by PH1 A. J. Dooley".

Follow the link to see more photos of the MacKenzie as well. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/836.htm

[7eat51]

Hi Walt,

Please try sending me a PM, and take note of what you are doing. If you can't send one, then you can share with me what steps you took, and we'll figure out a solution.

Cheers,
Eric

[Diamondback]

Um, oops...

Not Copperplate, try Bank Gothic.
http://www.myfonts.com/search/bank+gothic/fonts/

[Keel-hauled]

Walt, according to the caption on the photo I linked that pic was taken in 1974. "February 19 1974 at San Diego, USS George K. MacKenzie (DD-836) with USS Higbee (DD-806) outboard. Photo by PH1 A. J. Dooley".

Follow the link to see more photos of the MacKenzie as well. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/836.htm

Yes, of course you're correct. Later, I found the same photo myself and felt a bit sheepish when I read the caption. lol

[Keel-hauled]

The photos and info here are great and will help indeed!


Walt: Sounds like a plan, let's do that. [I think the PM attachment is my fault as I placed it in a private album]

Great, Susan! Thanks for bearing with me. I'll get with you once the model arrives. Hopefully, I'll have figured out PMing by then and we can exchange mailing addresses. :) ---Walt

[Nightmoss]

Yes, of course you're correct. Later, I found the same photo myself and felt a bit sheepish when I read the caption. lol

Not a problem at all. I'm just happy you're finding the information you need for the build.