When is an aircraft carrier not an aircraft carrier? Answer...

**Berthier** · 08-07-2013, 07:02

When it's Japanese

Just launched in Japan

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...destroyer.html

the latest in naval warfare double speak...a flat-top destroyer.

**Nightmoss** · 08-07-2013, 09:25

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. Yes, it certainly does look like an aircraft carrier.

**Gaz67** · 08-07-2013, 09:48

Indeed, my first thought was she looks a bit similar to HMS Invincible.

She's 250 m long, 38 m beam, 27000 long tones displacement and 14 Helos, HMS Invincible is 210 m long, 36 m beam, 22000 long tones displacement and 22 Aircraft.

Wiki calls her the Izumo-class helicopter destroyer and is a replacement for Hyūga-class helicopter destroyer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Inv..._(R05)#History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-c...pter_destroyer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hy%C5%A...pter_destroyer

**David Manley** · 08-07-2013, 10:17

yup, tasked with ASW and carrying helos only so "definitely" only a destroyer

Of course F-35B would fit just fine too, and it would be a simple job to add a ski jump, oh yes......

**Cpt Kangaroo** · 08-07-2013, 11:03

I wonder how stable the deck would be in an open sea. Could get real interesting retrieving rotor wings if the barometer dropped.

**David Manley** · 08-07-2013, 11:06

Looks OK. We had no problems operating rotary wing from the Vinnies in Sea State Awful. Heck, even Lynx off T23s in SS8 when the need arose.

**Naharaht** · 08-07-2013, 20:37

Deceptive terminology is not new. H.M.S. Invincible was originally designated as a 'through deck cruiser'.

**David Manley** · 08-07-2013, 23:37

True, they were. But it wasn't a "deception" thing, its because the design fulfilled the role of a cruiser in the 1960s. The Vinnies were originally intended to be ASW and command ships following the principle tested in the converted Tiger class cruisers. There were competing designs, one along the lines of the Italian "Vittorio Veneto" or the Russian "Moskva" with an aft flight deck, the other following a carrier approach with a longitudinal, or "through" deck. IIRC the latter proved to be far superior from a helicopter handling and airflow perspective. The fixed wing aspect was added in the mid 1970s when the requirement for the Sea Harrier was approved, but the ships were still referred to as cruisers (I have a stack of old drawings in the office of the design from those days which all refer to "The Cruiser", and some of these persisted until quite late on in the ships lives). But at some point the myth that they had been called "through deck cruisers" to confuse and deceive politicians was borne. As Nick Child's book on he design and operational history of Invincible showed that was not the case; everyone involved knew what she was and how and why the design was developing as it did,

It does make a nice story though.

**Diamondback** · 08-08-2013, 01:02

As I said about Izumo and Japan's current military politics over on another board...

Reminds me of the old Russian helicopter-carriers like the Kiev and Moskva... and I'd say NOT embarking a four-ship of Harriers or F-35B's for self-defense would be just plain stupid.

With how Red China's tooling up for war, ESPECIALLY in the Tac Air and Gator Navy departments, can ya really say ya BLAME Japan or ANYBODY in East Asia for wanting to beef up a bit in response, though? Amphibious warfare forces are NOT things you build in self-defense, their SOLE reason for being is to go kick somebody's door in then kick his teeth in. And the ChiComs have long been building a capable submarine force, so our allies need every tool to extend the reach of their ASW platforms (now mainly heliborne since some monkey with less brains than an average RAT TURD scrapped the S-3 Vikings) they can get so the Chinese fast-attack force can't break out into the Pacific if the shooting starts...

Don't get me wrong, a large part of the problem is cultural--if the order came from the top even a lot of today's Japanese would STILL "Climb Mt. Niitaka", but it seems to be a common "deference to authority" problem across most East Asian cultures--and my main point is if I had a belligerent neighbor like the PRC on my block, you're bloody right I'd be buying the biggest and best stuff my Friendly Local Gun Shop could get me too...

**Andy Blozinski** · 08-08-2013, 05:19

Helicopters, F-35s and drones.

**csadn** · 08-08-2013, 15:17

Originally Posted by Diamondback

With how Red China's tooling up for war, ESPECIALLY in the Tac Air and Gator Navy departments, can ya really say ya BLAME Japan or ANYBODY in East Asia for wanting to beef up a bit in response, though?

The question is: Do they complete their buildup before the "4-2-1 family" effect kicks *them* in the teeth?

**Diamondback** · 08-08-2013, 15:32

I've always said that one of the major things to watch for is a lifting of that... if it comes off, as grotesque and repulsive as some of us find the idea of forced abortion or sterilization, it's probably a safe bet that they expect other "population control" measures to take effect--like they're getting ready to literally breed an army, or expect horrendous population losses in something coming soon.

**Comte de Brueys** · 08-08-2013, 17:06

Funny they raised the Imperial War Flag with the rising sun on this new ship.

Fits perfect to the JSDF.

**Devsdoc** · 08-08-2013, 17:20

Diamondback,
Don't say to much! This is an open site. Someone may read this in China and think "I no likey SOG backers" and stop or slow down the shipping of your ships to the U.S.A. Maybe we should not support Ares as they ask a company from China to make the model ships.

Be safe
Rory

**Diamondback** · 08-08-2013, 21:32

Rory, I would GLADLY pay more if Ares had the miniatures manufactured in a European, American or even Korean shop with equal or better quality. You'd be surprised at the leaps that Academy Plastic Model Co. for one has made over the past decade... granted, a lot of their kits STILL have fatal flaws but they're a quantum leap over just earlier in my brief lifetime.

**David Manley** · 08-09-2013, 01:41

Originally Posted by Diamondback

With how Red China's tooling up for war, ESPECIALLY in the Tac Air and Gator Navy departments,

...says someone from a country with by far the biggest, most powerful (and most active from a combat perspective) military on the face of the planet. Whilst I'm no fan of the Chinese I do find some of the hyperbole regarding Chinese actions and motives quite amusing, since in many cases they simply follow the precedents set by the West (the UK included).

**Berthier** · 08-09-2013, 02:22

Somehow we got off aircraft carriers onto China...now we cant be political so I'm posting these for interest not discussion

**Devsdoc** · 08-09-2013, 13:55

David & Daniel,
Hear! hear! Lets keep smiling in this small world.

Be safe
Rory

**csadn** · 08-09-2013, 14:18

Originally Posted by David Manley

...says someone from a country with by far the biggest, most powerful (and most active from a combat perspective) military on the face of the planet. Whilst I'm no fan of the Chinese I do find some of the hyperbole regarding Chinese actions and motives quite amusing, since in many cases they simply follow the precedents set by the West (the UK included).

Well, they do have quite a few Object Lessons in their past history on what happens when they decide to cross swords with Westerners or Western-trained powers (Boxer Rebellion; various Sino-Japanese wars).

(Pity I never got to write the "China v. Japan" sourcebook for _Crimson Skies_ -- all that research....)

**Comte de Brueys** · 08-09-2013, 14:39

Sometimes it's only the manpower...

Eastern front 1941-1945 is a good example.

**Naharaht** · 08-14-2013, 19:18

I saw on the news that H.M.S. Illustrious left Britain to go to Spain for a N.A.T.O. exercise but it was only carrying helicopters. It was nothing to do with the dispute over Gibraltar. All our Harriers were scrapped but Spain has some, which we sold to them.

**Comte de Brueys** · 08-15-2013, 17:23

I read the HMS Illustrious will quit service as soon as HMS Ocean (a pure helicopter carrier) is back on duty in 2014.

Originally Posted by Naharaht

I saw on the news that H.M.S. Illustrious left Britain to go to Spain for a N.A.T.O. exercise but it was only carrying helicopters. It was nothing to do with the dispute over Gibraltar. All our Harriers were scrapped but Spain has some, which we sold to them.

Maybe they ask for some submarines soon, too.

**David Manley** · 08-16-2013, 00:10

Ocean is a "proper" LPH with davits for landing craft, a gangar optimised for vehicle as well as aircraft stowage, purpose designed troop spaces etc. Using the CVS's as assault ships was more of a stopgap than anything.

Pity we didn't build CVF as an enormous LHD (CVHD?).

And don't get me started on scrapping the Harriers. Stupid decision; almost as stupid as the Nimrod replacement saga!