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Thread: What Are National Iconic Ships?

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    Default What Are National Iconic Ships?

    What little I've learned so far points to most AoS nations having at least one ship that has become an icon of identity over time. Victory for the British, Santissima Trinidad for the Spanish and Constitution for the US.

    What about France (L'Orient?), Russia, etc.? I know I could do some research online, but it's probably more fun and educational to tap the resources here. So, what do folks say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    What little I've learned so far points to most AoS nations having at least one ship that has become an icon of identity over time. Victory for the British, Santissima Trinidad for the Spanish and Constitution for the US.

    What about France (L'Orient?), Russia, etc.? I know I could do some research online, but it's probably more fun and educational to tap the resources here. So, what do folks say?
    Part of the problem in this period was: France's navy was almost-entirely Aristos -- when the Rev kicked off, anything with the "aristo taint" was denigrated; and the effect this had on the navy led to the parade of French naval failures of the period. So France didn't really have an "iconic" naval vessel at the time. (It didn't help that all those defeats resulted in any iconic ships being captured or destroyed -- witness, for one, the example you cite, _L'Orient_.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Part of the problem in this period was: France's navy was almost-entirely Aristos -- when the Rev kicked off, anything with the "aristo taint" was denigrated; and the effect this had on the navy led to the parade of French naval failures of the period. So France didn't really have an "iconic" naval vessel at the time. (It didn't help that all those defeats resulted in any iconic ships being captured or destroyed -- witness, for one, the example you cite, _L'Orient_.)
    Thanks Chris. It makes sense that the Revolution caused major issues with the French navy. My question is primarily based out of curiosity. Perhaps only nations with a strong historical naval tradition have identified with select iconic ships?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    For the French this thread sums it up:

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...itish-Navyurl]
    Very interesting reading for sure. It boggles the mind to see just how much information is out there readily accessible via the Internet.

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    Here in Spain are four considered National iconic ships, as you said, the Santisima Trinidad, but the three Sips from the Columbus' expedition are much more famous and beloved, The niña, the Pinta and the Santa María, every school kid here has to study these three, the Santisima Trinidad is only know by those who studied more or are very interested in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blas de Lezo View Post
    the three Sips from the Columbus' expedition are much more famous and beloved, The niña, the Pinta and the Santa María
    Unfortunately, in the States, these three have moved from being famous to being infamous; IMHO, a testimony to revisionist history. I am happy to read they are still appreciated in Spain.

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    Revisionist history is one of the poisons that sadly affects worldwide, here we have a lot of that with the autonomies (Catalonians, Vasques etc) and also in South America, where the Spaniards have become something demonic. In Argentina is especially painful for me, is where my parents came from, and many times I heard quite harmful words against the Spanish from people with Spanish heritage. Many times things that are false but the people repeats over and over until it became true, such as the slaughter of Indians in Argentina, something that was done almost a century after the independence from the Spanish crown (the conquest of the desert by Julio Argentino Roca)
    I know how the things were done during the Empire, I visited the Inquisition headquarters in Toledo, the religious fanatics, the imperialism and many other things. Although not all was bad, and also many time has passed and everything looks bad if we judge the past with modern standards and if we skipped the historical context.
    Sorry for the rant but I had to let the steam of, I’m just tired of the way that Spaniards are being judge all around the world for things that happened 5 centuries ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blas de Lezo View Post
    Sorry for the rant but I had to let the steam of, I’m just tired of the way that Spaniards are being judge all around the world for things that happened 5 centuries ago.
    Alberto, I think you will find you're in good company with many here.

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    Alberto, like Eric said you are not alone. Not just Spain but all of Western civilization is being torn down. In the United States the worst of it is how much the United States is portrayed as being evil from within our own country. It is taught in the schools from elementary to college and endorsed by the powers that be within our own government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Alberto, I think you will find you're in good company with many here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Alberto, like Eric said you are not alone. Not just Spain but all of Western civilization is being torn down. In the United States the worst of it is how much the United States is portrayed as being evil from within our own country. It is taught in the schools from elementary to college and endorsed by the powers that be within our own government.
    And don't forget the contributions of the 4th Estate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Alberto, I think you will find you're in good company with many here.
    Indeed you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blas de Lezo View Post
    Revisionist history is one of the poisons that sadly affects worldwide,
    Revisionism isn't bad *when there's actual data to back it up*. An example local to me: For decades, it was accepted that Thomas Lanphier had shot down the G4M carrying Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku; then someone looked more closely at the reports, as well as the physical evidence, and realized there was no way Lanphier could have been the one to deliver the kill-shot -- most likely, it was Rex Barber, from Oregon, who did Yamamoto in.

    Unfortunately, "one bad apple spoils the bunch" -- it takes one person with an agenda to use the process for his own benefit, and suddenly the entire process is sent veering madly off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blas de Lezo View Post
    Here in Spain are four considered National iconic ships, as you said, the Santisima Trinidad, but the three Sips from the Columbus' expedition are much more famous and beloved, The niña, the Pinta and the Santa María, every school kid here has to study these three, the Santisima Trinidad is only know by those who studied more or are very interested in history.
    Alberto, thank you for adding the ships Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria to the list of ships I have for Spain. They are indeed iconic ships for Spain, but also for the world I think. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardPF View Post
    And don't forget the contributions of the Fifth Column...
    Fixed it for you! :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Revisionism isn't bad *when there's actual data to back it up*.
    There's a huge difference between revising due to evidence and revisionism. One is driven by a desire for truth, for veracity; the other is driven by ideology that sanctions the creation of "truth" to support political agendas - by political I do not solely mean governmental.

    For a good read:

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    http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Histor...8221221&sr=1-2

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    Why am I remembering a really good line?

    "Archaeology is the search for 'Fact', not 'Truth'--if it's 'Truth' you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Why am I remembering a really good line?

    "Archaeology is the search for 'Fact', not 'Truth'--if it's 'Truth' you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall."
    Good one Indy.

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    Hang on the truth is out there, they said so on TV!

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    Alberto,
    It is what you do and say that counts. Not the place in which you are born! That is lines on a bit of paper, called a map. Be proud of yourself and YOUR history. I know us Brits did some bad things in the past. We also did some good things. to know your true past makes you a true person today. And a shipmate I am glad to know.
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Alberto,
    It is what you do and say that counts. Not the place in which you are born! That is lines on a bit of paper, called a map. Be proud of yourself and YOUR history. I know us Brits did some bad things in the past. We also did some good things. to know your true past makes you a true person today. And a shipmate I am glad to know.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Well said Rory. I second those statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Hang on the truth is out there, they said so on TV!
    "A thousand years ago, everyone 'knew' the Earth was the center of the Universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody 'knew' the Earth was flat. And five minutes ago, you 'knew' that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll 'know' tomorrow..."

    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And five minutes ago, you 'knew' that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll 'know' tomorrow..."

    lol
    Makes me think of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Makes me think of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes:

    Absolutely one of the best episodes ever. And is exactly why Stephen Hawking doesn't think we should be making all these attempts to contact 'aliens'. "It's a little too risky".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Absolutely one of the best episodes ever. And is exactly why Stephen Hawking doesn't think we should be making all these attempts to contact 'aliens'. "It's a little too risky".
    Does make one wonder if the Voyager spacecraft, packed with information of life on Earth and headed out of our solar system, is a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Why am I remembering a really good line?

    "Archaeology is the search for 'Fact', not 'Truth'--if it's 'Truth' you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall."
    A-F***IN'-MEN. Facts are ugly little bastards, which is why so few people are willing to look at them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Hang on the truth is out there, they said so on TV!
    I really miss that show.

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    Getting back to the thread. The Russlans had no Iconic ships. They had a very short life 10 to 12 years only. The timber was sent down river to the docks and used before it dryed-out.
    So most of there ships rotted very fast. They had so much timber and not to bad shipyards, they just pumped them out like Ford cars (but with no warrant). As they lost ground to rot, they went from warship, to troop transporter, to block ship (Floating gun-batteries), to hulks and hospital ships. When you think that H.M.S. Victory was over 40 years old at Trafalgar, and that was not abnormal, gaves one the idea how short Russian ships stayed in service.
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Getting back to the thread. The Russlans had no Iconic ships. They had a very short life 10 to 12 years only. The timber was sent down river to the docks and used before it dryed-out.
    So most of there ships rotted very fast. They had so much timber and not to bad shipyards, they just pumped them out like Ford cars (but with no warrant). As they lost ground to rot, they went from warship, to troop transporter, to block ship (Floating gun-batteries), to hulks and hospital ships. When you think that H.M.S. Victory was over 40 years old at Trafalgar, and that was not abnormal, gaves one the idea how short Russian ships stayed in service.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Langton sells a number of Russian ships, but the selection is limited. Are Russian ships are less popular with the hobbiests? I see one 100 gun version on Waterloo Minis and I'll admit I rarely think of Russia as a sea power.

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    Perhaps because most Russian naval action was in the Baltic and East Med, at least until the Russo-Japanese War. People do forget, though, that Peter the Great was a sailor before he was a ruler, and Catherine the Great even imported John Paul Jones to lead forces in the Russo-Turkish War... only to have one of the Russian Navy's rising stars scuttled by a bunch of petty Brit officers who said "he goes or we go."

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    Yes Jim,
    They faced of, The Swedish navy, The Turkish navy, The British navy, The French navy. Yes a sea power. Not as we think of the British, French, Dutch, Spainish or Portuguese. The Russians had 3 main fleets, Baltic, Black Sea and Caspian Sea. Each fleet had 2 parts, The High Sea Fleet and the In-shore or Army Fleets. The Caspian fleet was the smallest and had smaller ships. Nelson was so unhappy about the Russian Baltic Fleet 40 SOL (the biggest of the 3 fleets) joining the Danish fleet ( The League of Armed Neutrality) before the ice melted. Some think that is why he put the glass to his blind eye and did not /could not see Parkers signal to withdraw and not fight the Danish fleet at Copenhagen (before the ice bound Russian fleet could put to sea). Later a part of the Baltic Fleet as a British ally, sailed to England and on to the Med. So yes! a big player in the Napoleonic Wars. The number of ships Langton makes for socalled 2nd class powers is maybe smaller than the big 3, but he does make them. Ares I think have no plans to do so.
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Well, some of the late Russian 74's also flew the Spanish flag after 1808ish, so don't count them out yet.

    Besides, there's a BIG gap between "do not have plans to do" (passive "Not Right Now") and "have plans to not do" (active "Not Ever")...

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    Russia's rise as a seapower was always limited by the geography of the Baltic and Black Seas both with narrow exits and easily blockaded. Their far northern ports were subject to winter freezes and the search for an all weather port would take them to the Pacific Ocean as wll as various attempts at seizing Constantinople (Istanbul). Coupled with this was what appears to be a strong Euro-asian centric land policy of expansion rather than the naval expansion and establishment of colonies evident in western european powers. There's probably whole series of thesis written on the why's of all this.

    Interestingly, in their search for warm weather ports the Russians actually combined with the Turks in a campaign in 1798-99 to besiege the French in Corfu in the Ionian Islands.A Russo-Turkish squadron was sent to support Suvarov's (perhaps the finest Russian commander of the period) land campaign against Italy and Switzerland that were attempting to expel the French (Bonaparte was busy in Egypt at the time). The combined fleet eventually reached over 12SOL and 11 frigates plus numerous other vessels so was not an insignificant affair. The French eventually surrendered in March 1799, the French ships were captured by the Allied fleet.

    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o...%E2%80%9399%29

    The islands became a joint protectorate of Russia and Turkey and served as the Mediterranean base for the Russian fleet. The Russian fleet later supported the allied attack on Naples.

    The islands were ceded back to France by the Treaty of Tilsit in 1807 after the Russian defeat at Eylau (though perhaps it was more of a very bloody draw).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Well, some of the late Russian 74's also flew the Spanish flag after 1808ish, so don't count them out yet.

    Besides, there's a BIG gap between "do not have plans to do" (passive "Not Right Now") and "have plans to not do" (active "Not Ever")...
    Hi Diamondback,
    I know the Russians sold a number of ships to the Spanish in 1817. I did not know the Russians served in the Spanish navy? News to me.
    Besides, I always say "A bird in to hand is worth two in the bush". If I see a Russian ship by Ares within 2 years After SOG comes out I'll eat my hat.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Last edited by Devsdoc; 05-11-2013 at 20:54.

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    It's great to read all these comments. Segments of history I've never really considered, and certainly more detailed than I ever knew. Thanks!

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    Rory, I meant ships, not crews. :o As a general rule, I usually talk the hardware more than the meatware, since it's where my comfort zone lies and thus my knowledge base builds faster...

    I wouldn't expect one within the "Start Up" timeframe, I'm just saying unless the plug gets pulled or Andrea or somebody else sez "Never Gonna Happen," don't count 'em out. Don't bet the wad on it either, but...

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    Can anyone suggest some good books on Russian AoS? I have been building a library the last few months, but it primarily focuses on the U.S. and British navy. France is somewhat covered accordingly, but Russia is a major gap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Can anyone suggest some good books on Russian AoS? I have been building a library the last few months, but it primarily focuses on the U.S. and British navy. France is somewhat covered accordingly, but Russia is a major gap.
    Here's a website on the Russian Navy:

    http://www.neva.ru/EXPO96/book/book-cont.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Here's a website on the Russian Navy:

    http://www.neva.ru/EXPO96/book/book-cont.html
    Thanks Bobby. Just did a quick look at several links. A lot of good historical info it seems, and a good introduction to names as well which will help for subsequent research.

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    Try this Eric, still in print too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post


    Try this Eric, still in print too.
    It's a bit pricy though at $56.86 for a used one on eBay.
    Last edited by Coog; 05-12-2013 at 22:15.

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    I looked up the book on amazon, and it is a bit expensive compared to the $3 used books I have been picking up. I will check our interlibrary loan program first, and go from there.

    Naval Institute Press seems to put out some quality books. I assume it is a trustworthy press. Is that assumption correct?
    Last edited by 7eat51; 05-14-2013 at 14:14.

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    The book covering the British Navy in the same series also looks very good, but like the one on the Russian Navy, quite pricy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    It's a bit pricy though at $56.86 for a used one on eBay.
    Hi Bobby,
    Yes it is, but it is very, very good. It has all the Informations you will need.The 3 fleets, high sea and in shore fleets, shipyards, campaigns, battles and ships lists, history of each ship, armourment etc,. If you like the Russians, this is the book for you, Yes, its a bit pricy, but if you add all the books you buy for the same information its cheep.
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Hi Bobby,
    Yes it is, but it is very, very good. It has all the Informations you will need.The 3 fleets, high sea and in shore fleets, shipyards, campaigns, battles and ships lists, history of each ship, armourment etc,. If you like the Russians, this is the book for you, Yes, its a bit pricy, but if you add all the books you buy for the same information its cheep.
    Be safe
    Rory
    You're right Rory, if you can find a book that does cover everything on a subject in which you are really interested, it is well worth the price, since it is rare to find such a book. Usually my problem is I can't find such a book on the subjects I really like and do find them on subjects in which I'm only mildly interested. (I guess they don't have a book in the series on the French Navy as you can refer to book on the British Navy.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    (I guess they don't have a book in the series on the French Navy as you can refer to book on the British Navy.)

    Hi Bobby,
    No
    be safe
    Rory

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    Coming late into this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Part of the problem in this period was: France's navy was almost-entirely Aristos -- when the Rev kicked off, anything with the "aristo taint" was denigrated; and the effect this had on the navy led to the parade of French naval failures of the period. So France didn't really have an "iconic" naval vessel at the time. (It didn't help that all those defeats resulted in any iconic ships being captured or destroyed -- witness, for one, the example you cite, _L'Orient_.)
    Not to mention the fact that the French kept renaming their ships. Some ships were renamed almost every time they returned from a cruise. Very confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Langton sells a number of Russian ships, but the selection is limited. Are Russian ships are less popular with the hobbiests? I see one 100 gun version on Waterloo Minis and I'll admit I rarely think of Russia as a sea power.
    In addition to the six high seas fleet vessels Langton also has 7 in-shore Army fleet models under the "Baltic" heading. Rob Eubank doesn't list these on his Waterloo site but if you e-mail him, he will get them for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Can anyone suggest some good books on Russian AoS? I have been building a library the last few months, but it primarily focuses on the U.S. and British navy. France is somewhat covered accordingly, but Russia is a major gap.
    As Rory says, The Russian Warships in the Age of Sail is the best book to get. I did however read another book recently that covered the Baltic Age of Sail period pretty well and included the creation of Petersburg and the Russian Navy and its exploits in the Baltic, North Sea, Atlantic, Black Sea, and Mediterranean. It's called Naval Wars in the Baltic: During the Sailing-ship Epoch, 1522-1850 by Roger Charles Anderson.

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    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Thanks for the Russian titles.

    I looked up French books Bobby, and here is one that is pretty cheap, especially used hardbacks - more history than technical, on the 7-year war, and with 100 pages of notes, probably quite a bit for future research: http://www.amazon.com/French-Seven-Y...8581744&sr=1-1

  49. #49
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dorset
    Log Entries
    961
    Name
    Rory

    Default

    Hi All,
    You can add one more ship to the Russian high sea fleet by using Langton's SW1 40 gun frigate of Sweden. The Russians had large battle frigates. They copyed the captured Swedish frigate "Venus". They built 5 classes of ships, all based on the Venus. The Army Fleets or In-shore Fleets of both Sweden and Russian mixed and matched ships and boats
    Be safe
    Rory

  50. #50
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Given the nature of ship design and the very high degree of commonality between ships of different nations let alone ships from different yards and designers within the same country you will be able to put a Russian fleet (or almost anyone else's for that matter - standfast the Swedes "Archipelago Fleet" types for example) from whats out there, or likely to be out there over the next few years, with only a minor repaint or maybe a small bit of filing of stern galleries. They won't be 100% correct, but pretty close and from more than 12" away indistinguishable from what they are meant to be if outfitted with a Russian ensign. I think encountered my first 1/1200 Russian "fleet" sometime around about 1989, made up entirely of British, Russian and Spanish models painted and flagged appropriately

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