Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 51

Thread: Signal the fleet!

  1. #1
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default Signal the fleet!

    It really sounds like a lot of people (myself including) think that having multiple players controlling individual ships (possibly doubling up if small ships) may be the most engaging method of play. One interesting thing that came from some of those was the concern that in an AoS game coordination between the ships is not nearly as good as anything more modern where radios (or holographic tactical theater displays) are available. So having freedom of communication between the players on a team is a little bit of a spoil.

    From those side conversations I was thinking a great way to do it would be to let the teams talk among themselves as much as they wanted in advance of play, but once the game starts they can no longer do so, except perhaps if they were within "Musket Range". For any other communication it would be fun to use Signal Flag cards. Something that a player can hold up for his team either to give orders, convey situation or request help.

    Now, real nautical signals were a book to themselves. Though you do need such detail for the massive information of a real engagement in a game it should be simplified but still have enough variety to handle most typical in-game communication. I am thinking of laminated cards (somewhere between 1"x2" and 'business card' size) and a laminated reference sheet. I would only have one set that is used by both sides as trying to do nation-specific ones gets cumbersome and confusing.

    Examples:
    Basic Number (0-9) and directional (Port / Starboard )
    Turn as formation ( + directional )
    Turn individually ( + directional )
    Form order of sailing in (+ number) columns
    Make more sail
    Reduce sail
    Interchange places in the line

    and of course...
    Engage the enemy more closely


    Of course, players would also be free to make up their own flags for special signals to share with their team.

    So...before I reinvent the wheel I would like to ask any players here that have been in AoS games for a while if they were already familiar with something out there.

    Otherwise I'll probably work on the basics of this while waiting for the game and finalize it once I see what is done during play and how players want to communicate. I will likely leverage graphics of traditional signal flags though change their meaning somewhat when needed.

    I'm sure communication in this manner will NOT be perfect and I don't want it to be.

    Thoughts, comments, feedback, references and rum always appreciated...

  2. #2
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    How visible should such signals be to the opposing team?

    It might be worth making the cards a little larger. Some of us do not have as keen of eyesight as we used to.

    Great thread that will give us something constructive/useful to do while awaiting the game's release, especially since signaling does not require a full set of rules in hand to discuss adequately.

  3. #3
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Illinois
    Log Entries
    116
    Name
    Scott

    Default

    I like the idea!

    Just wondering... would the larger flags allow the other side to 'steal' your signs? I'm no historian, so I have no idea if this happened or is of any concerns. If, however, secrecy is necessary: How about putting the nautical flag symbols on a small deck of cards that could be handed between 'captains' on the same side...allowing the symbols/messages to be hidden?

  4. #4
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    We can work this out while we wait to get our ship. Maybe this thread should move to the House Rules area.

  5. #5
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    D'oh. Should have put it there to start I guess. Sorry.

    Can an admin move or should I close and restart it?

  6. #6
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    Our fearless leader can move this over to that section (please). He did it for our posts on solo rules that were mixed in another thread.

  7. #7
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    As for other ships seeing the signals, there should be a certain number of rulers established as the distance within which signaling can occur. One must recognize that enemy ships within that range can see the signals as well, regardless of whether the enemy can understand the signals.

    A PM has been sent requesting the move.

  8. #8
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    As for other ships seeing the signals, there should be a certain number of rulers established as the distance within which signaling can occur. One must recognize that enemy ships within that range can see the signals as well, regardless of whether the enemy can understand the signals.
    How about something like can see it at 1/2 ruler. A 50% chance to see the correct signal at a full ruler. Smoke markers blocking the line of sight cuts chance by 25%. In case the roll fails, use a chart to select an incorrect signal based on the actual signal flag.

  9. #9

    Default

    Signal flags could be given a tabulated set of meanings at the start of each game, known only to the users side. Thus lets say there are 10 signal flags and 30 possible orders. Pairs of flags (chits or cards could be used) could be assigned to each order and given to each player on your side having a copy of the "signals" book or page for that game. The opposition could have exactly the same set of flags but with an entirely different set of assignments. It is thus irrelevant if they can see your flags as they have no idea what they mean.

    alternatively there could be say 10-12 signals sets pre-formatted and each side randomly draws what their set is unknown to their opponent so again similar flags sets would have different meanings for the two sides.

    i think some form of signal book, probably a single page, hidden from your opponents, and with chosen flag sequences from a limited number of flags to be assigned to a limited number of actions would nicely replicate the poor communications of the period.

    further realism could be added by visibility rules linked to sea condition and weather, low visibility or heavy seas limiting the range at which signals are allowed to be seen, the rulers as suggested could be used for this and a variable dice roll added as to whether the signal was seen in full, partially (one flag randomly and the player must try and figure from his book which possible signal(s) this could be), or not seen at all or misread and a random signal substituted. There are a multitude of ways tis could be done.

  10. #10
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Washington
    Log Entries
    1,601
    Name
    Paul

    Default

    Excellent idea Lawrence. Great way to add something interesting to the game.

  11. #11
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Daniel, I like the idea of signal books. I think a playable version would be to make a generic book with the given flags on it, laminate the page(s), and let each team have a set of markers, establishing the meanings before play. As the game proceeds, players have access to index cards with a signal on each card. As they raise the signal, only their team would know its pre-determined meaning. This would enable teams to choose what signals they want to use, and prevent other teams from knowing the meaning. It would only take a few minutes before play to set up, and with the book, no one has to memorize anything.

  12. #12
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Many of you touched on a lot of my instinctive feelings but Berthier and 7eat51 caught several points well. As I said, I think this will just be a rough idea until we get the game and play. Until then we "don't know what we don't know". Some of my thoughts though...

    I don't think hidden signals should be allowed or you might as well let people talk. Signals should be potentially visible to all even if they may not know them.

    I think it should be presented in a model similar to the game: Basic Signals, Advanced Signals and Optional.

    I would suggest this is all done as a PDF for anyone to access as it will develop as a community effort from here, basically putting this all in the Public Domain clearly up front. If someone wants to develop a nice, fancy printed version for sale then it should just recognize the IP and efforts of the SoG Anchorage community, and maybe guilt them into kicking back some funds to support here. But that's all getting ahead of ourselves.

    Multiple dictionaries / signal books would be a great idea and allow player teams to pick their dictionary secretly before play and keep things difficult for the opponent go guess.

    Basic Signals
    * One set of signal cards used by all but a separate "dictionary" for each fleet (min of two for British & French to start obviously but maybe 5+ to allow more unknown variety).
    * Most signal cards will appear on the dictionary but there could be 2-5 "undefined" cards in the set which the team can use to develop some custom orders before play.
    * Signals are placed out on the table next to the Log of the ship giving the signal and are visible to all players
    * Players can change signals at will.

    Advanced Signals
    * Players can only change signals in the shooting phase when they're ship performs its shooting. I think this will make signals much more interesting than doing it at the beginning of a new Turn.
    * Signals are kept hidden unless someone tries and succeeds at viewing.
    * Flags can only be attempted to be read within a range, such as 2x ruler length. This will force fleets to stay relatively close to communicate.
    * Smoke can obstruct flags. We will have to see how Line of Sight and smoke are handled in the game but my gut feeling is if LoS can be established for shooting purposes then you can see signals. This will keep things simple since you can piggy back on the official smoke rule. Otherwise maybe something like this: "If there's smoke blocking your LoS you cannot attempt to read signals beyond close range. At close range draw a Damage Chit and if it's Even you can read, if it's Odd you can't. You can always read at Musket Range."

    Optional
    * Changing signals is an Action? Will really need to wait for the rules about this one.


  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Daniel, I like the idea of signal books. I think a playable version would be to make a generic book with the given flags on it, laminate the page(s), and let each team have a set of markers, establishing the meanings before play. As the game proceeds, players have access to index cards with a signal on each card. As they raise the signal, only their team would know its pre-determined meaning. This would enable teams to choose what signals they want to use, and prevent other teams from knowing the meaning. It would only take a few minutes before play to set up, and with the book, no one has to memorize anything.
    This is very similar to the signaling system in "Fire as She Bears" rules. The system uses small colored cubes that would be placed next to the signalling ship to represent the flags. The code for each side would be set before the game based on a generic codebook. Colors and combinations of colors could be assigned numbers or commands such as "wear in sucession" or shorten sail. It was loosely based on the English signalling system. There are rules for repeating and responses as well. I will have to dig out the game so I can review the signalling rules. If I recall correctly it was an optional add on to the system, but designed not to slow down the game.

    Eric

  14. #14
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Awesome DeRuyter! I was really hoping someone had done something similar already so we can build on the good points while learning from the bad ones.

    My prototype I was working on was using British Naval signal flag graphics but giving more specific meanings. Many of them involved numbers which would be looked up in a book to give the exact meaning. This is really flexible but can be pretty complex. I'd like something that's pretty easy even if it's not as flexible.

  15. #15
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Log Entries
    2,027
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    _Space:1889_'s ship-combat system had a rule for this: Maximum of six words each turn. So, for ex.: "Form Line of Battle behind flagship", or "_Niagara_ engage enemy now".

    Really-clever players [*cough* :) ] have coupled this to a "signal book", the way the RN of this period did; thus allowing long and complicated message to be communicated in a few letter or numbers.

  16. #16
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    CA
    Log Entries
    151
    Name
    Michael

    Default

    I like the way this idea is developing. My only worry is that I won't have much chance to use it as this is something most likely to be used at Cons, not the one on one games I am most likely to play at home.

  17. #17

    Default

    The coloured cubes concept is interesting. Even allows for errors in reading..a blue cube next to a white might be misread as WB not BW and could lead to a turn to starboard instead of port for instance

    Even small coloured dice could be used thus combining a number and a colour eg; blue5, yellow1 etc..that would mean only a single marker could have 6 options, 2 would have 36 combinations etc.

  18. #18
    Ordinary Seaman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    33
    Name
    Paul

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    This is very similar to the signaling system in "Fire as She Bears" rules. The system uses small colored cubes that would be placed next to the signalling ship to represent the flags. The code for each side would be set before the game based on a generic codebook. Colors and combinations of colors could be assigned numbers or commands such as "wear in sucession" or shorten sail. It was loosely based on the English signalling system. There are rules for repeating and responses as well. I will have to dig out the game so I can review the signalling rules. If I recall correctly it was an optional add on to the system, but designed not to slow down the game.

    Eric
    The system is called Hoist Signals Aloft, it comes with a page of preprinted commands you have to fill before play assigning which color corrosponds with which number so each side can't understand the others signals. It can be downloaded of Wargame Vault but i don't remember how much.

  19. #19
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Really-clever players [*cough* :) ] have coupled this to a "signal book", the way the RN of this period did; thus allowing long and complicated message to be communicated in a few letter or numbers.
    So have really clever rule writers [*cough* ;) ] who have written signalling systems into their rules that include "user specified" words and combinations :)

    There was a really clever one published in Waragmes illustrated (?) many years ago which used plastic page channel things (the things you to temporarily bind a4 sheets of paper together that go along the whole side of the page) to hold facsimiles of real signal flags on each of the ship's three masts to send signals (the mast on which the signal is being flown indicating, in a fleet action, to which squadron the signal is being sent). it was a fun system to use, but a bit tricky to use. Personally i prefer the "signal book" approach and a limited number of "words" that can be sent.

  20. #20
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Especially now that the updated Advanced Rules video is out and we can see how Actions such as raise/lower sails are incorporated along with movement and combat. Since you also have to pick movement one turn in advance the use of signals as well would mean you could have a two-turn lag in communication.

    Most of my games will also probably be 1v1 games but we will play some 2v2 and possibly larger games enough for this to be a fun addition. And team play at events / cons / parties / educational would really be where it comes into play.

  21. #21
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    I think the potential for miss communication that has been highlighted could make for some interesting engagements.

    What distance do you think makes sense for signaling? One ruler given that is the length of firing? Two rulers given the use of telescopes?

    Should there be a random die roll when there is fog that would require the sender to leave off 1d4 of flags in a given message, or a random die to choose which flags to leave off, or a roll to see if sending any message is possible?

  22. #22

    Default

    Eric I think we need to look at visibility in general then work backwards.
    Thus we could have for example

    a) atmospheric conditions
    clear 0
    twilight/dawn -1
    night moonlit -5
    rain -2
    squall -3
    storm -6

    b) sea conditions
    calm 0
    moderate -1
    heavy -3
    severe -5

    c) battle conditions (smoke etc)
    light smoke -1
    heavy smoke -3

    This could be simplified/made more complex as you like.

    Sum factors, so light smoke in moderate sea at twilight (-1 -1 -1) total visibility factor -3
    Have a table of say 0 through -7, where 0 is perfect visibility and there is a reduction for each level of visibility loss. If we assumed full visibility in perfect conditions for signals was say 4 rulers (for arguments sake), make each visibility level drop 1/2 a ruler, so 7 levels make it down to 1/2 a ruler, and in this example -3 reduces it to 2 1/2 rulers.

    Chuck in some rules for misread signals and there you go!

  23. #23
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    What distance do you think makes sense for signaling? One ruler given that is the length of firing? Two rulers given the use of telescopes?
    I wouldn't bother with limiting it. The distances over which signals could be read far surpasses the size of a typical wargames table, even a large one.

  24. #24
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Personally I would go for a simple rather than a complex set of rules for signals, for a number of reasons. Remember the turn length in these rules is measured in minutes, the number of recorded cases I've come across where signalling errors were significant are few and far between, the signaling systems themselves were pretty robust in their execution and, in my experience, even well drilled players can quite easily make a hash of passing messages this way without the input of a random factor :)

    The simplest system I've seen (other than just assuming messages were passed OK) was a single die roll by the ship flying the signal (the signal being made up of a maximum number of elements, five being standard,4 for less well drilled commands, six for the better ones), and if it was failed one or two elements were selected at random and not included in the "hoist". Players of course had to announce the numbers for the signals that they were flying (since everyone can see them).

    We quickly learnt the best approach to all of this was as the COs themselves found - decide on your tactics before action is joined and keep signalling to a minimum.

    EDIT - as I recall in those games each player had a wipe-clean board on which they would write the numbers of the elements of their signals and had them visible from wherever they were sitting around the table. Of course in big games that added to the fun as sometimes other players were to rapt in their own local bit of action to notice that the CinC was calling to them :)

  25. #25

    Default

    Agree David simplicity is best otherwise it can greatly slow play, giving options from complex down for discussion. I think it is worth considering specific scenario visibility settings even if only to limit gun ranges (well accuracy anyway) in some games even when signalling systems aren't used.

  26. #26
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    I've just now stumbled on this thread. Some really interesting and potentially very fun ideas.

    Out of curiosity, as I'm not a WoG player, do teams signal each other in the WW1 fights? From what I've read radios only came in late in the war and were used primarily for signaling artillery attacks.

  27. #27
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Out of curiosity, as I'm not a WoG player, do teams signal each other in the WW1 fights? From what I've read radios only came in late in the war and were used primarily for signaling artillery attacks.
    We generally don't allow players to talk tactics during a game (as it happens everyone is usually too busy gobbing off about trivia to have TIME to talk tactics during the game :) )
    Hand signals are allowed.

    Radio comms had actually been in use for about a decade by the time the Great War began. The Imperial Japanese Navy for example made great use of wireless-equipped torpedo boats in maintaining surveillance of Russian ports during the RJW. The first radio set in an aircraft (or at least a British one) occurred in 1912, and in airships in Germany in 1909

  28. #28
    Able Seaman
    United States

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Log Entries
    94
    Name
    Al

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    We generally don't allow players to talk tactics during a game (as it happens everyone is usually too busy gobbing off about trivia to have TIME to talk tactics during the game :) )
    Hand signals are allowed.

    Radio comms had actually been in use for about a decade by the time the Great War began. The Imperial Japanese Navy for example made great use of wireless-equipped torpedo boats in maintaining surveillance of Russian ports during the RJW. The first radio set in an aircraft (or at least a British one) occurred in 1912, and in airships in Germany in 1909
    The problem is that use of radio in ww1 required an operator for the radio set. Single seat fighter just could not fit the gear much less have the pilot trying to use the radio at the same time as fly, find the enemy, kill the enemy, avoid being killed, then trying to find the frequency and then remember the right morse code for what he wants to transmit? Having a backseater dedicated to observing, bombing and communicating was bad enough that it usually detracted from any gunnery skill the backseater was purported to have. Also remember the gear was new tech, and new translates to big. The smaller, the less range and the less usefulness the item had, using morse to tell someone to look out for the hun in the sun would usually be a bit useless. By 1917 voice radio was developed, and by 1918 was deployed, but it was still experimental and between murphy and gremlins....
    Last edited by Wargamer; 04-18-2013 at 16:31.

  29. #29
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Of course in big games that added to the fun as sometimes other players were to rapt in their own local bit of action to notice that the CinC was calling to them :)
    Even in small WoG games, as long as there are two or more things happening on the table at once. I found it interesting how quickly we ignored engagements occurring two or three feet away; each player was basically focused on executing his/her part of a plan and reacting to whatever the enemy was doing.

    Thanks for the clarification on signal distances and game scale.

  30. #30
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Log Entries
    2,027
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Of course in big games that added to the fun as sometimes other players were to rapt in their own local bit of action to notice that the CinC was calling to them :)
    "I only have one eye, and I have a right to be blind sometimes." >;)

  31. #31
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ohio
    Log Entries
    111
    Name
    Paul

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf03809 View Post
    It really sounds like a lot of people (myself including) think that having multiple players controlling individual ships (possibly doubling up if small ships) may be the most engaging method of play. One interesting thing that came from some of those was the concern that in an AoS game coordination between the ships is not nearly as good as anything more modern where radios (or holographic tactical theater displays) are available. So having freedom of communication between the players on a team is a little bit of a spoil.

    From those side conversations I was thinking a great way to do it would be to let the teams talk among themselves as much as they wanted in advance of play, but once the game starts they can no longer do so, except perhaps if they were within "Musket Range". For any other communication it would be fun to use Signal Flag cards. Something that a player can hold up for his team either to give orders, convey situation or request help.

    Now, real nautical signals were a book to themselves. Though you do need such detail for the massive information of a real engagement in a game it should be simplified but still have enough variety to handle most typical in-game communication. I am thinking of laminated cards (somewhere between 1"x2" and 'business card' size) and a laminated reference sheet. I would only have one set that is used by both sides as trying to do nation-specific ones gets cumbersome and confusing.

    Examples:
    Basic Number (0-9) and directional (Port / Starboard )
    Turn as formation ( + directional )
    Turn individually ( + directional )
    Form order of sailing in (+ number) columns
    Make more sail
    Reduce sail
    Interchange places in the line

    and of course...
    Engage the enemy more closely


    Of course, players would also be free to make up their own flags for special signals to share with their team.

    So...before I reinvent the wheel I would like to ask any players here that have been in AoS games for a while if they were already familiar with something out there.

    Otherwise I'll probably work on the basics of this while waiting for the game and finalize it once I see what is done during play and how players want to communicate. I will likely leverage graphics of traditional signal flags though change their meaning somewhat when needed.

    I'm sure communication in this manner will NOT be perfect and I don't want it to be.

    Thoughts, comments, feedback, references and rum always appreciated...
    Wow, I really like this idea. I would suggest the signal flags being something like a 1 x 1 inch square chip that you could lay down along side of the ship. You could make a code book that would have a set of meanings for the flags. If you used the "A" set of codes, the same flags would mean something different from the "B" set of codes. A fleet could decide which set of codes thay are using before the game starts, this way you could signal the fleet without giving away your intentions to the enemy, yet the enemy would still be able to see your signals, just as they did in a real battle.

  32. #32
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pward View Post
    I would suggest the signal flags being something like a 1 x 1 inch square chip that you could lay down along side of the ship.
    Then I suggest that the future Anchorage store carries telescopes; I would need one.

    I would make them larger, and keep them off the mat. I think it would make play easier. Different sets of codes is an interesting idea.

  33. #33
    Landsman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    18
    Name
    Michael

    Default

    The Clash of Arms game Close Action uses signal forms for multi-player. I'll have to double check how they work, but I recall it was fairly simple. I think it was along the lines of captains could write a six word message - where the name of any ship counts as only one word regardless - with no punctuation. Admirals (whomever was leading one side) could write nine, I think.

    I also believe the message was written at the start of a turn, moves were made, and then the messages delivered.

  34. #34
    Admiral. R.I.P.
    Admiral
    UK

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Norfolk
    Log Entries
    6,691
    Name
    David

    Default

    Just to give you an idea of what a real signal book looked like.

    http://www.rmg.co.uk/captain-frederick-marryat's-signals-book

  35. #35
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Just to give you an idea of what a real signal book looked like.
    Very nice.

  36. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Just to give you an idea of what a real signal book looked like.

    http://www.rmg.co.uk/captain-frederi...s-signals-book
    Very nice find, surprisingly complex given this is a single open page of the book which presumably has some further signal pages.

  37. #37
    2nd Lieutenant
    Germany

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Nordrhein-Westfalen
    Log Entries
    727
    Name
    Ulrich

    Default

    This is a very interesting discussion, indeed. Will test some ideas...

  38. #38
    Able Seaman
    Israel

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    North
    Log Entries
    87
    Name
    Avi

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Very nice find, surprisingly complex given this is a single open page of the book which presumably has some further signal pages.
    That's why they had signal men (or officers) -
    nice quote from wiki -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England...ll_do_his_duty

    "
    As the British fleet closed with the opposing combined fleets of France and Spain, Lord Nelson signalled all the necessary battle instructions to his ships. However, aware of the momentousness of events to come, Lord Nelson felt that something extra was required. He instructed his signal officer, Lieutenant John Pasco, to signal to the fleet, as quickly as possible, the message "England confides [i.e. is confident] that every man will do his duty." Pasco suggested to Nelson that expects be substituted for confides, since the former word was in the signal book, whereas confides would have to be spelt out letter-by-letter. Nelson agreed to the change (even though 'expects' gave a less trusting impression than 'confides'):[2][3]
    His Lordship came to me on the poop, and after ordering certain signals to be made, about a quarter to noon, he said, 'Mr. Pasco, I wish to say to the fleet, ENGLAND CONFIDES THAT EVERY MAN WILL DO HIS DUTY' and he added 'You must be quick, for I have one more to make which is for close action.' I replied, 'If your Lordship will permit me to substitute the confides for expects the signal will soon be completed, because the word expects is in the vocabulary, and confides must be spelt,' His Lordship replied, in haste, and with seeming satisfaction, 'That will do, Pasco, make it directly.'
    —John Pasco

    "

  39. #39
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Avi, did you take that quote from Seize the Fire? It sounds very familiar but that's the only book on Trafalgar I have read that gets to this level of detail.

    I have started some work on this and hope to have an example in a couple weeks (not a lot of free time right now...60+ hour weeks have become average again). As mentioned before, I don't want to base too fully on the true signal books because they were very powerful but very complex. I instead am using the graphics of the traditional signals but wrapping the meaning of each particular flag up into something more general for the level of play I expect SOG to require. A single front-sided reference sheet with maybe 20 flags and their meaning is my current model. You can re-use flags but have a several different reference sheets which mix up the flag/meanings. This way everyone on your team knows you are using "Reference Sheet B" to translate flag signals but your opponents won't know unless you tip your hat or they manage to guess after a few turns.

    One thing I was playing around with is a "signal mast". A weighted base with a rod about 10" and a few alligator clips on it. I'm testing flags about 2"x3". You pick your flags and clip them on the mast. It seems like a nice way for the "admiral" to have the signals next to his Ships Log. The alligator clips ruin the flags pretty quick so I'll look around in an office supply store for some other options when I do something more "production ready". And until we get the KS in and can play a few multiplayer games it's really hard to know when the best time for changing signals (leaning to right after moves are revealed but before shooting starts) and what signals are actually useful and appropriate.

    If it seems to work out then we can suggest how to make a home made version (with printable flags and reference sheets in PDF format) and perhaps someone could produce a more attractive kit that can be sold via the Anchorage.

  40. #40
    Landsman
    Canada

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    British Columbia
    Log Entries
    8
    Name
    Kevin

    Default

    Has anyone considered using a deck of cards as the signal flags? Half a deck, giving each side red or black A thru K gives plenty of possible combinations. Sample signals could include:
    Port
    Starboard
    Van
    Main body
    Rear
    I intend
    Request you
    Engage
    Disengage
    Board
    Disable
    Alter
    Follow
    North
    North East
    East
    South East
    South
    South West
    West
    North West
    Engage the Enemy More Closely (cause you have to have)

    I know there will be endless debate about visual ranges, secrecy etc. I intend on making a single code book and allowing each side x # of seconds to signal one another per turn out of sight of their opponents. I think the intent of limited private comms will enable a level of cooperation approaching that of historic levels without slowing the game down.

    Without having played, I think this is a faster, more user-friendly version of an Age of Sail game and complicating it further is unnecessary.

    (if anyone wants to know how it would be done with modern warships, I'm your man)

  41. #41

    Default

    There are several good websights with nautical flags. I haven't found one with 18th/19th century flags.

    http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/flags.gif

    http://www.ussslater.org/visitus/fil...al%20Flags.JPG

    http://www.molossia.org/milacademy/flags.jpg (this one has numbers)

    http://www.sea.edu/images/k-12/signalflag1.GIF (also has numbers)

    I would recommend adding a signals phase before movement, to prevent bogging down play. Flag signals should be formatted. 1st Flag who message is for, Repeater flag if message didn't originate from the hioster, if repeater used 3rd flag is who message orginated with, and last segment is the message. Also, players should hiost an anknowledgement signal.

    Just some thoughts, this thread has some great concepts. It will be interesting to see how people implement them.

    Bob

    Bob

  42. #42
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Washington
    Log Entries
    1,601
    Name
    Paul

    Default

    Thank you for the links Bob. I agree that this concept will be interesting when people add it into the game.

  43. #43
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    I would recommend adding a signals phase before movement, to prevent bogging down play. Flag signals should be formatted. 1st Flag who message is for, Repeater flag if message didn't originate from the hioster, if repeater used 3rd flag is who message orginated with, and last segment is the message. Also, players should hiost an anknowledgement signal.
    Bob, I fear things like repeater and acknowledgement flags would complicate things too much for many people playing a game with such a simple mechanic. This is one of the tradeoffs between realism/accuracy and playability. Going off of WoG, I imagine most folks would use flags only if they were quickly employed and for basic commands. I know that once WoG games start, even hand signals take a backseat to play; people seem focused on the table and their next moves. The nature of AoS might be different in this regard, but I foresee most games being of small enough scale that flag communication will be minimum anyway. I plan on using them with certain groups of players and in certain scaled games. Bob, if we find a group that doesn't mind a slower and more detailed style of play, I think your suggestions would be fun to try. This would be especially be so if we could assemble a larger group playing a larger battle. It would be a longer game as well. We should look into hosting a Saturday event that focuses on such a game.

  44. #44

    Default

    Eric, Sounds good. Of course we'll have to digest the basic-advanced game mechanics first.

    Bob

  45. #45
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    I agree. By next spring, we should have enough folks that have played to host such a game. I have several friends in Bloomington alone who would set aside a Saturday for a longer, more advanced game, especially since we won't be playing such games normally. I have access to a church basement in which we can setup tables for a larger game - kitchen provided as well.

  46. #46

    Default

    I look forward to an invite.

  47. #47
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Lydia View Post
    I look forward to an invite.
    Since you'll be teaching us how the signaling will work that day, by all means.

  48. #48
    Landsman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Log Entries
    5
    Name
    Dan

    Default

    Something that may be of interest...
    http://www.wargamevault.com/product/...rs_id=594&it=1

  49. #49
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by berlichtingen View Post
    Something that may be of interest...
    http://www.wargamevault.com/product/...rs_id=594&it=1
    Very cool. That's really close to what I was imagining as well, but I pictured a slightly more simplified version. This one looks like you can set up your own code translation which does make things very flexible, but may move the point of entry slightly higher. I'm picturing something that fits in just above the SoG Basic Game level of interest to engage starting around the casual player that pulls it out for Saturday "beer and pretzel" games.

    I LOVE though that they recognize this as just a fun extra idea and have such a low price point on it. I see it as a "free to download" item as well.

  50. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf03809 View Post
    Very cool. That's really close to what I was imagining as well, but I pictured a slightly more simplified version. This one looks like you can set up your own code translation which does make things very flexible, but may move the point of entry slightly higher. I'm picturing something that fits in just above the SoG Basic Game level of interest to engage starting around the casual player that pulls it out for Saturday "beer and pretzel" games.

    I LOVE though that they recognize this as just a fun extra idea and have such a low price point on it. I see it as a "free to download" item as well.
    I have used this system with "Fire As She Bears" rules, for which it was originally designed. Before the days of PDF downloads mine cost more but it came with small wooden cubes for the signals. As you noted the system is flexible so you can just use a few simple signals for beer and prezels fog of war if you like.

    Eric

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •