Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 196

Thread: Solo Play rule development thread

  1. #1
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default Solo Play rule development thread

    Italicized portions will be deleted.

    Rosters
    Each player will create a roster of eight captains. During a game, players can choose, from their roster, those captains that are available. As captains gain experience through victories, they will gain skills. As they are injured, they might have to sit out one or more scenarios. Assign ranks to your captains as appropriate to the nation for which you sail.

    We'll play two three-month mini campaigns this year to play test rule sets. In January, we'll kick off a year+ campaign that will be thematic and chronological. However, for those few who brave the waters during these two mini campaigns, whatever victories they, and their AI captains, have achieved will follow onto next year's campaign. In that sense, these mini campaigns can be thought of as backstory, albeit loosely. I will set up a spreadsheet to track successes, deaths, and injuries of our captains.

    For the 2015 campaign, we'll probably focus on British vs. French given the ships that are available since that campaign will be thematic. For the scenarios between now and the end of the year, we can do anything we want, substituting ships for ships of other nations. Any scenario writer who wants to do so simply tells us what we need and gives us the stats - for example "2 Dutch SoLs with the following ship logs". Any captains from this year's scenarios can be carried over to next year's campaign, and if the captains are not British or French, then they can be assumed to sail under those colors next year, or have their names “legally” changed. I will create rosters for the AI captains, and they, too, will gain experience.


    Captain-Crew Mixes
    Captains are able to move from ship to ship.
    Crews are assigned to a specific ship.

    With our game, it could make sense to have some limits based on rank, for example a Lt. not commanding a 1st rate. I don't know how restrictive we should be given that this is for fun, and is not a tournament or competition.

    I think the above scheme would be the easiest regarding record keeping, and it would allow some choices as to how players set up their side for a given scenario. It might to might not be historically accurate, but it probably will work for fun gameplay.


    Skills
    Captains accrue skill points according to the following schema. For every 10 skill points accrued, a captain gains a new skill.

    • 1 point for every ship defeated (sunk/captured) that is of a broadly defined smaller class, for example a 74-gun SoL defeating a frigate, or a frigate defeating a sloop. The scenario author will define such classes.
    • 2 points for every ship defeated of the same broadly defined class.
    • 3 points for every ship defeated of a broadly defined larger class.
    • 1 point for achieving a scenario specific goal - does not require the taking of a ship but the achievement of a strategic goal as defined by the scenario writer.

    For the first solo campaign, choose two captains and assign each one a skill of your choice.

    If a crew survives two scenarios with 50% or more of the crew intact, the crew earns a skill. It will maintain the earned skills until it receives more than 50% casualties. To earn a skill, the crew must have engaged in battle, i.e. the crew must have fired its guns at an enemy ship, and received fire from an enemy ship.

    Skill List
    • Good Aim-When firing a broadside, and opponet draws one or more "0s", you may use this ability to make them draw an additional counter (may be used twice)
    • Well-trained gunners- Single broadside may be reloaded after it has fired (may be used once)
    • Elite Marines- When shooting muskets, if a "0" damage counter is drawn, you may force the opponent to draw an additional counter (may be used once)
    • Hold Fast- Ship has one free crew damage box left to take a crew hit in, the ship may take an additional three crew hits before surrendering
    • Skilled Quartermaster- May increase Veer by 1 for duration o the turn (may be used twice)


    Folks, let's create a list of potential skills that folks can earn as they accrue victory points. I read through the captain/crew cards, but I think a more expansive list of captain/crew skills is desirable.

    Awards
    If you know of awards/medals captains of your respective navy earned during the time period covered, please list them here along with their requirements. These will not affect gameplay, but will give us something to toast upon recognition.

    After Action Report (AAR)
    After each player plays the given month's scenario, the player will write up an AAR and post it in the campaign thread. Again, I will set this up. You can write in any style you want. I will provide some guidelines as to the information I will need at the end of the AAR to do the record keeping.

    Basic Rule Maneuver Principles:
    Solo Maneuver Chart: http://sailsofglory.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=84
    1. Choose the quadrant in which the majority of the appropriate ship is. If the ship is equally in two sectors, choose the quadrant containing the front of the ship.
    2. If the wind direction falls exactly on a quadrant dividing line, randomly determine which quadrant via a die roll.
    3. If a ship is taken aback, use the red card corresponding to the maneuver card generated by the AI chart.
    4. When determining the +1 or +2 die roll modifier due to range to enemy ship, measure from the most advantageous firing arc red dot on the AI ship to the base of the player ship.
    5. Sails are set to Battle Sails.
    6. If a die roll would cause a ship to violate veer, choose sharpest turn within veer limits.

    Basic Rule Combat Principles:
    1. Only use Ball ammo.
    2. When choosing between short and long distance shots for the AI ship, always choose short unless raking - B-damage is more deadly than A-damage - better to have less chits with greater chance of inflicting damage per chit.


    Disengagement
    When a ship is within the last three boxes of hull damage or crew hits, role a 6-sided die for disengagement: 1-4 = remain in battle; 5-6 = disengage. Roll each time a ship takes additional damage. Disengaging ships will attempt to exit their side as directly as possible, and will avoid combat, only taking shots of opportunity. The nature of disengaging can be altered based on scenario specific rules.

    Modifiers to Disengagement Die Rolls
    • +1 if both hull damage and crew hits are within the last three boxes
    • +1 for each enemy ship that is not disengaging
    • -1 for each friendly ship that is not disengaging
    • Additional modifiers as per relevant captain/crew skills






















    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Playing SGN solo might be a little tougher then doing so with Wings. The addition of the wind and how it effects your maneuvers is going to make creating a artificial intelligence system much harder. Don't forget that there are quite a few other things that effect just how your ship moves as well (sail settings, crew actions). There is also a lot more going on with shooting. There are three different types of ammo, three different firing arcs, reloading, waiting for a better shot, either rang or arc... the list goes on and on.
    Seems like an AI system quickly would become rather complex. I hope we find it isn't beyond doing though. If it is, sadly, so be it.

    If others are interested, when we have the full complement of rules, I wouldn't mind trying our hand at it. If we could develop such a system, it would greatly facilitate campaigns like Over-the-Trenches. If we can't, I for one, would learn a lot trying.

    Here are some links to Aerodrome-based AI and campaign rules:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Campaign-Rules
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ule-Amendments
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...p?do=cat&id=13
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...p?do=cat&id=63
    Last edited by 7eat51; 06-30-2014 at 07:59. Reason: Added links

  2. #2
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    I would not think an AI system is out of the question. The only additional item to consider is wind facing. I would limit the additional ammo rules out of an AI game. Unless it is a random d6/2 roll to load. It might be interesting to put all three together and then it is a single move per combo.

    Examples:
    Closing enemy, beating with chain shot is a fast straight to close.
    Closing, beating with ball shot is a slow left to try and get a raking broadside.

    It would need to cut something out, like the upcoming rules for the 3 sail settings.

    Or if you want to use everything, another choice on the matrix for sail setting and random rolls for the AI to set new sails at intervals or distance to target?

  3. #3
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Ted, have you looked at the AI rules for WoG? If not, I will send you the links.

    The maneuvers are set based on orientation to the player's plane and whether the player's plane is moving toward or away from the AI plane. A die is then rolled, and the three cards are played. Each maneuver deck has its now matrix. If the AI system gives moves that the player doesn't think makes sense, the player can adjust.

    Besides movement, I think a similar system can be made for ammo based on a few questions. It is worth exploring.

  4. #4
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    I have both Richard's and Blackronin's rules. I like the later rules for more simplicity. The difference with SGN is the movement is one card at a time compared to three for WGF. I think we could do something similar with a grid based on facing, wind and range to choose one card for the next movement phase. The layout would not be much different from the WGF stuff. We could randomize the card choice to 3 possible cards instead of 6 sets in WGF. And could randomize the ammo types based on the same positing system.

  5. #5
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barrelman View Post
    We should spin this AI talk off into it's own topic.
    Please do! And start off with links to the current WGF AI options and, if possible, some input on pros and cons of each or what people do/don't like in each. Basic AI logic in games is an area of interest and study of mine though I've only implemented it at low levels myself. If there are too many variables for a paper-based system in SOG perhaps a very light weight web based or 'app' AI option could emerge.

  6. #6
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    We have a dedicated thread thanks Keith! I'll try to find the links on Aerodrome for the WGF rules unless someone gets there first.


  7. #7
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barrelman View Post
    We have a dedicated thread thanks Keith! I'll try to find the links on Aerodrome for the WGF rules unless someone gets there first.

    Hey Ted,

    I edited the OP with links. If you find any others, please send them to me and i will edit accordingly. This way we can keep outside rule links in one place for ease of finding them - especially as this thread grows.

  8. #8
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    We could use the link to Richard's rules at http://www.tynesidewargames.co.uk/wowrules.html for a baseline.

  9. #9
    Landsman
    UK

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Derbyshire
    Log Entries
    10
    Name
    Trev

    Default

    I really hope we can come up with solo rules for this game. The reason I got into WOG was the solo aspect, 80% of my games are solo due to time and work. I realize its going to be difficult but I've found there are some very clever people on this and and WOG site, I just wish I was one of them.

  10. #10
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,551
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Luckily, there are some solo scenarios and rules in the basic starter set. I'm pretty sure some of the guys will expand on those pretty quickly.

  11. #11
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Log Entries
    237
    Name
    Ted

    Default

    Yes. The included scenario is an excellent place to start for any house rules developed by the community.

  12. #12
    Midshipman
    Germany

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Log Entries
    187
    Name
    Sebastian

    Default

    I wasn't sure whether to open a new house rule thread or to append to this one.

    After reading the rules and scenarios, I did like the rules for solo player at a first glance. However, as has been pointed out, I think it could be difficult to come up with some ai system that reacts to wind direction and opponent solution.I do like the solo scenario with the stationary ships, but I fear it might become somewhat repetetive as soon as one is familiar with the sailing conditions.

    Therefore, I thought about having rules regarding springs on the anchor cables, allowing ships being veered round while being at anchor. I think especially solo player games would benefit from such rules as the wind is ruled out of any equation for the ai. Since this tactic has been used during that age (Battle of the Nile, Battle of Plattsburgh etc.) I could also think of some nice scenarios for more than one player.

    I started an Internet search about the dynamics (degree of turn, speed) of using these springs, to come up with some mechanics for the game. But apart from learning, that the ship would turn around the stern if only one anchor was used, I couldn't find anything. I have some doubts about a 360° in one turn. I do not even know if such a degree of rotation was/is possible. The battle of Plattsburg suggests at least a turn of 180° being possible. Maybe (actually I'm pretty sure) we do have some members with more insights into this topic, who could help.

  13. #13
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,551
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    On a single anchor, I think the ship would fall off to leeward with either the stern or bow pointing into the wind (depending on where it was anchored from). Perhaps making this change happen a turn or two after the wind changes directions would be a simple solution.

  14. #14
    Ordinary Seaman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    North Carolina
    Log Entries
    41
    Name
    Andrew

    Default

    Having ships at anchor rotate (at least in the solitaire games) would be helpful I think. When I first read the rule book, I thought that the solitaire scenario where you're pursuing an enemy ship which moves at random was somewhat interesting, but the solitaire scenario of attacking ships at anchor only seemed useful as a training game. It seems like once you've played a few times and understand well how the ships moves, the logical thing to do is sail up to the enemy ships at anchor, drop anchor yourself off their stern, and rake them over and over (and they can't return fire against you). If the anchored ships could rotate, that would help a little.
    Last edited by BSG_Fan; 09-28-2013 at 02:21.

  15. #15
    Ordinary Seaman
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    nebraska
    Log Entries
    46
    Name
    john

    Default

    Why not play the game solitare the same way one plays chess solitare i.e play both sides with equal ferocity. I've done it with as many as 20 battalions a side in 15mm Napoleonics. Sometimes the results can be very surprising.

  16. #16

    Default

    I think it's the preplanned movement aspect that makes this one hard to simply switch back and forth between sides in your head and play them both well.

  17. #17
    Ordinary Seaman
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    nebraska
    Log Entries
    46
    Name
    john

    Default

    If you have a short attention span like me it's not too har.....what were we talking about?

    While having ADD can be usefull, as long as you are honest with yourself it can be done.

    I've done it with Wings Of War.

  18. #18
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bakblast View Post
    Why not play the game solitare the same way one plays chess solitare
    I play most wargames solitaire. Even if some measure of bias creeps in, I still enjoy playing. I'll do the same with SoG.

    The nice thing about the WoG solitaire rules is the unexpected. It might be easier to develop an AI mechanism for SoG based on single card maneuvering while maintaining either single or one-card delay maneuvers for the player. I imagine a priority matrix could be developed to handle crew actions, and a similar matrix for combat, e.g. "If enemy ship …, load with … ammo", or something similar to that.

  19. #19
    Ordinary Seaman
    Japan

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hiroshima
    Log Entries
    42
    Name
    Jeffrey

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    I think it's the preplanned movement aspect that makes this one hard to simply switch back and forth between sides in your head and play them both well.
    Great minds think alike, so when playing both sides you should have some intuition as to how you're playing both sides, but short turn memory issues and preplanning work well together to give some uncertainty as to what you're doing as your opponent. So far, I've had fun playing multiple ships against myself.

  20. #20
    Landsman
    UK

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Staffordshire
    Log Entries
    4
    Name
    Patrick

    Default

    Been playing about with solo rules, ripped off from Herkybirds Wings of Glory, and come up with a hand written first draft. The key seems to be to not target the nearest ship, but an imaginary spot (I call it the target spot) about 1" out from the edge of the nearest ships base. This is so that the AI vessel manouvers alongside, or rakes, the player ship and does not sail straight for it as a plane would.
    Only works with basic rules so far but could be a starting point for further development.Name:  SailsofGlorySolo.jpg
Views: 2161
Size:  133.5 KB
    If you can make a template and you have played the Wings of Glory Solo it should make sense to you, and if you can read my writing.

  21. #21
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Hi Patrick,

    Thanks for the chart. I copied it into a .pdf. With your permission, I would like to upload it as a file so people can easily print it off. We can play test it and give you feedback. I will try it this weekend.

  22. #22
    Landsman
    UK

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Staffordshire
    Log Entries
    4
    Name
    Patrick

    Default

    Hi Eric,
    Yes, please do, I hoped people would take it up and improve it to something worth playing. I have played 4 games now with 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 ships (I only have the starter set yet) and either it works or I am the worst Captain that ever set sail, as I have lost 3 times.
    Looking forward to other players reports and amazed that you could read my scribble.

  23. #23
    Landsman
    UK

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Staffordshire
    Log Entries
    4
    Name
    Patrick

    Default

    After test game 5 I have further ammended the "Target Spot" rules to avoid a lot of collisions.
    If the nearest enemy is more than 1 ruler distant, then only aim for the beam target spots.
    If the nearest enemy is less than 1 ruler away, then aim for either the beam or stern target spot.

    Also the moves when in the red sector have to be looked at as I can see that at times the AI ship will just be blown backwards across the board for move after move.

  24. #24
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Patrick's solo rule template has been uploaded: http://sailsofglory.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=76

    Thanks, Patrick. Looking forward to trying these out.

  25. #25
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    If you are interested in helping design a set of solo rules for SoG, please join this discussion.

    Some of the items that need to be developed are:

    1. Maneuver charts
    2. Ammo selection
    3. Crew action selection
    4. Captain and crew progression with associated benefits
    5. ???

    I will reserve several posts here, one for each item. As we discuss such rules, I will update these following posts accordingly, so the latest thinking of each area is gathered and summarized in an easy to find format. I will also add notes to the OP to help in locating important info in this thread.

  26. #26
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    If you are interested in helping design a set of solo rules for SoG, please join this discussion.

    Some of the items that need to be developed are:

    1. Maneuver charts
    2. Ammo selection
    3. Crew action selection
    4. Captain and crew progression with associated benefits
    5. ???

    I will reserve several posts here, one for each item. As we discuss such rules, I will update these following posts accordingly, so the latest thinking of each area is gathered and summarized in an easy to find format. I will also add notes to the OP to help in locating important info in this thread.
    Count me in, ive made my sector template and planned to playtest the Rules in the end of the week.
    It wont be as easy as with wings of glory but in my opinion it can be done to make a usefull ruleset for solo play...

    Will post my comment and/or suggestions here

    Cheers,

    Thijs

  27. #27
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Great, Thijs. Along the lines of, or interacting with, Patrick's chart above, I think it would be beneficial to start with an AI mechanism that focuses on a basic set of rules, such as only using round shot, etc. Once that set is developed and play tested, and settled, then we could look at a mechanism for adding ammo choice, etc., with each iteration adding new levels of complexity. In the end, there could be three sets of rules: basic, standard, and advanced. Thoughts?

  28. #28
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    I agree smarting with the basics!

    What I dont understand what is the reference point to determine the sector...
    Should we take the main mast of the players ship to see in which sector it is?

    Maybe the continous fire is also a good fire mode for basic solo play of the AI ship?

  29. #29
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Play testing will help determine if the main mast is the best point of reference, but it seems a logical choice. Let's start with it and see what happens.

    Die charts could be set up based on ships' bearing, and possibly some consideration of distance (at least with standard and advanced rules), e.g. within two rulers or some such thing. Unlike WGF in which speed is basically set, SGN allows for different sail settings resulting in different arrow lengths, hence the distance consideration.

  30. #30

    Default

    I'm interested. I will print out Patrick's templates and give them a try.

    Honestly with only about 10 games played, the challenge I see for myself is that I'm not entirely sure what optimal strategy looks like.

    In the games I've played, perhaps half have hinged on disastrous mistakes, like running aground or miscalculating and being taken aback when I thought I would still be safely in the yellow. It seems pretty challenging to figure out how to factor something like terrain into solitaire rules, when even as a supposedly intelligent player I can't seem to hit the gaps consistently.

    When not making bone-headed moves, however, I've found it hard to figure out whether my tactics are good or not. I've enjoyed the battles and found them tense and engaging; but it's hard to pinpoint particular decisions and say that they were brilliant or stupid or decisive. Instead the engagements seem to be more about the overall flow and cumulative weight of many decisions and moments of good or bad luck. I find the historical feel of this very good, but so far it's been hard for me to draw discrete tactical lessons

    Nor do I feel like I have a strong handle on the historical tactics (from the perspective both of learning from history, and developing rules that favor historically accurate behaviors...)

    All that said, I'm definitely interested in furthering this project (in part because it would be fun to run some collaborative missions together with the kids)

  31. #31
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Just played a solo "basic" game with roundshot on the AI ship.
    It seems the movement chart is doing its thing.

    Could only win with a very small difference.
    The english frigate sunk, while the dutch one was turned into a dutch Gouda cheese with enormous holes in it

    The AI ship reacted good to my ship!

  32. #32
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    Ithe challenge I see for myself is that I'm not entirely sure what optimal strategy looks like.
    It seems to me that for the AI maneuver options, we would want a range of reasonable maneuvers, not necessarily optimal in the sense of no chance for a mistake to occur, as mistakes do occur. I have seen this in WoG. Sometimes the AI planes make turns, etc., that are completely unexpected, but those maneuvers usually create interesting scenarios and force different responses on my part. It is part of the fun of the game - the potential unexpected.

    With land masses, there could be a general rule that if you are approaching a land mass, say within a ruler's length or some such measurement, your roll selections are limited to turns based on wind direction. This could still lead to running aground, but doing so without the apparent foolishness of having straight maneuvers as options when so close to land. Again, there is a difference between reasonable and optimal.

    One thing to consider is that if the system becomes unwieldy or too complex, it might not be employed. One of the strengths of the WoG solo mechanism we are using in the solo campaigns is ease and quickness of use.

  33. #33
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    With land masses, there could be a general rule that if you are approaching a land mass, say within a ruler's length or some such measurement, your roll selections are limited to turns based on wind direction. This could still lead to running aground, but doing so without the apparent foolishness of having straight maneuvers as options when so close to land. Again, there is a difference between reasonable and optimal.

    One thing to consider is that if the system becomes unwieldy or too complex, it might not be employed. One of the strengths of the WoG solo mechanism we are using in the solo campaigns is ease and quickness of use.
    Easy to use must be the key! I agree on that
    But since the Rules of SoG have more dept than wings it should be more than movement rules; would be nice If we could implement the different sails, ammo and the special damage

  34. #34

    Default

    They do have some guidelines in the rulebook (IIRC) for which actions solo ships should take based on the situation. Though perhaps these could be improved

    Ammo is a tough call. Thus far I usually have just been using regular ball. When it works out it's really sweet to have double-shot loaded at the right moment, but usually I mis-estimate when I will be in range and end up missing out on shots I could have taken if I had regular ammo loaded...

  35. #35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    One thing to consider is that if the system becomes unwieldy or too complex, it might not be employed. One of the strengths of the WoG solo mechanism we are using in the solo campaigns is ease and quickness of use.
    Point well taken.

    One thing that might be worth considering, however, even if it complicates the mechanism somewhat, would be to make the maneuver tables more cognizant of the wind. At least I know I do that (or try to do that) when I'm maneuvering. The proposed template factors in whether the ship is currently in the red, but is otherwise indifferent to how a maneuver is going to change a ship's bearing to the wind or possession of the weather-gauge...

  36. #36
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    For an "AI", I would first suggest looking into each navy's standard procedures and doctrines as an opening step. For example, the French would prefer to stand back and throw things at you from distance (an AI encouraging keeping a distance and maximum-range shots), while RN tactics were basically to take the bar-stool out from under you and break it over your head (an AI that would "steer straight into their line", close to You Can't Miss distance and keep each individual gun firing as fast as possible).

    Spanish, Russian, various Italian... all open questions, and frequently problematic to find data on outside of their originating communities.

  37. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    For an "AI", I would first suggest looking into each navy's standard procedures and doctrines as an opening step. For example, the French would prefer to stand back and throw things at you from distance (an AI encouraging keeping a distance and maximum-range shots), while RN tactics were basically to take the bar-stool out from under you and break it over your head (an AI that would "steer straight into their line", close to You Can't Miss distance and keep each individual gun firing as fast as possible).

    Spanish, Russian, various Italian... all open questions, and frequently problematic to find data on outside of their originating communities.
    I agree. Without getting overly rigorous or detail-oriented about it, it seems possible to develop two different AI 'personas', mapping roughly to these stereotypically/doctrinally British and French approaches. And then maybe more personas would emerge later...

  38. #38
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    I agree. Without getting overly rigorous or detail-oriented about it, it seems possible to develop two different AI 'personas', mapping roughly to these stereotypically/doctrinally British and French approaches. And then maybe more personas would emerge later...
    Don't forget the pirates?! Actually I'm just joking, and while most of Ares effort is on the British and French, some of us are still hopeful for the Spanish making an appearance relatively soon? OK, back to lurking mode on this thread.

  39. #39
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    I suggest keeping different levels of complexity as different sets of rules with attendant charts. Once one starts looking at different simultaneous choices, the maneuvers, etc., are impacted. As to DB's point, if we can create generalized lists of SOP for different navies, then we can create maneuver and other action charts aligned with those lists. One thing I think we need to keep in mind is that these solo rules will never mirror what can be done in a computer game, for example. In WoG, many, if not most, of the players do not use altitude, and when they do, they have created very easy rules; the games are still a lot of fun to play. Personally, I am not interested in trying to create a simulation, but rule sets that have just enough to allow us to play together, etc. The rest can be left to house rules. If a given set of house rules becomes widely adopted, we can roll those into the "official" rules.

    I will be starting a thread for a basic game campaign, shortly.

  40. #40
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Just played another solo game and didnt use the charts red movement suggestions but let them depend on a dice roll,
    The outcome of the dice roll suggests a normal movement with a steer rate, then use the red card matching that steer rate.

    Seemed to work better than just one red movement suggestion...

    Will test this again

    Also used the first broadside rule this time. Which was a good addition!

    Outcome was again a slight win for me but could have gone either way...
    The AI ship surrendered due to loss of crew.

    Using the main mast to determine the sector seemed to work well both times...

    Will have another go right now!

  41. #41
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Just played another one. The thing I mentioned in the post before with the red movement works great.
    In this way the red movement also reacts on the presence of the enemy.

    My conclusion so far is the AI ship could react somewhat more agressive in its movement when within a half ruler distance....
    So my suggestion is to add a +2 on the dice roll when within half a rule so it will turn more agressive?

    Having really a good time playing the solo Rules so far and a game between 2 frigates is about half an hour

    Darn wrong thread
    Last edited by Ducky; 05-28-2014 at 18:50. Reason: Wrong thread should be in solo play developing

  42. #42
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    Just played another one. The thing I mentioned in the post before with the red movement works great.
    In this way the red movement also reacts on the presence of the enemy.

    My conclusion so far is the AI ship could react somewhat more agressive in its movement when within a half ruler distance....
    So my suggestion is to add a +2 on the dice roll when within half a rule so it will turn more agressive?

    Having really a good time playing the solo Rules so far and a game between 2 frigates is about half an hour

  43. #43
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
    Just played another one. The thing I mentioned in the post before with the red movement works great.
    In this way the red movement also reacts on the presence of the enemy.

    My conclusion so far is the AI ship could react somewhat more agressive in its movement when within a half ruler distance....
    So my suggestion is to add a +2 on the dice roll when within half a rule so it will turn more agressive?

    Having really a good time playing the solo Rules so far and a game between 2 frigates is about half an hour
    Thijs, please elaborate on how you are playing red movement issues.

    I need to play a couple of games with your +2 idea, but that is the sort of easy adjustment we should aim for, and should guide how the maneuver charts are designed.

    It is good to hear you are enjoying these games. I cannot express enough how much fun and learning took place when playing the Final Months campaign on the Aerodrome. Reading my fellow wingmen's AARs was like reading short stories. It was fun writing them as well.

  44. #44
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    All that said, I'm definitely interested in furthering this project (in part because it would be fun to run some collaborative missions together with the kids)
    I missed this comment earlier, but I wholeheartedly agree. I want to take Sue through the Final Months campaign, and now as we enter the world of WWII WoG, the BoB/Malta campaign. We can fly together, or fly the same mission separately sharing our own stories, etc. Similarly, these are great ways to teach the game to others because you are on the same side. When you win or lose together, you can have fun discussing the game together afterwards.

  45. #45
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    About the red movement in the charts;

    For example:

    When the player's ship is in sector 1,1,11,12 of the AI ship. And the AI ship is running against the wind it needs to play a number 5 red card. That means the ship goes straight backwards. Likely the next turn the player's ship will still be in sector 1,2,11,12. And because the AI ship didnt turn it is still running against the wind.

    This can be so for several game turns....

    I now throw a dice, look in the chart what the normal green movement would be. For example in sector 1 the dice number thrown is 3 , the green movement would be card 6, I then take the 6+ red movement.

    So the AI ship is taken back but it also turns and less likely to be taken back another turn.

    Hope this clarifies it a bit?

  46. #46
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Got it, Thijs.

    One possibility is to have three basic charts, one for each attitude to the wind, and with 12 rows and 6 columns - rows reflecting ship positioning relative to the AI ship, and the columns representing die rolls. A player would simply choose the chart associated with wind attitude. I think some such mechanism would be non-cumbersome in that a player does not have to deviate in how (s)he executes AI ship movement; (s)he chooses the proper chart and executes the same steps. Of course, we're looking at three charts for each maneuver deck.

    Another consideration for the basic rule set is whether there is any planned movement. With the WoG mechanism, the charts provide the three maneuvers just like the regular game. Given that the greater complexity of SoG (based on the number of decisions a player can make each turn regarding sail setting, ammo, etc.) will eventually lead to a couple of rule sets based on desired complexity, I think it would be fine for the basic set to utilize one card movement. Thoughts?

  47. #47
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    That could be an option but I think one basic chart for all the manuever decks will do? I havent checked yet if the chart we use now misses some cards from the maneuver decks?

    I dont know if 3 charts for each wind attitude is needed.

    I looked at the solo Rules from the rulebook and I think the Rules they have for different actions and the priority of actions is ok to use for standard and advanced solo play.

    I dont know how we can implement the different sail settings? My only thougt on this is that they depent on the distance from the AI ship to the nearest enemy?

    For instance:
    within half ruler distance would be backing sails;
    Half ruler to full ruler would be battle sails;
    More than a ruler would be full sails.

    The action to change sails would come last in the action chart so is only done when the other actions are not needed and there is a action box left for changing sail setting????

  48. #48
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    But indeed a chart with 12 sectors and 6 movement actions for each sector could be a thing to research.
    But maybe there is a chance that the sectors look a like when you put to many cards in each sector?

  49. #49
    Midshipman
    Netherlands

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Noord Brabant
    Log Entries
    158
    Name
    Thijs

    Default

    I will look at the chart this weekend If some altering is needed;
    And will try to make a first attempt for a standard solo ruleset.

  50. #50
    Retired Admiral of the Fleet
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Given the devastating effects I have seen when frigates and SoLs fight, I think we should have a rule that an AI ship of 2 or more classes lower will not engage the higher-classed ship unless accompanied by another, sufficiently classed, ship (or some such comparison). If a lower-classed ship is caught in such a duel, or is the only remaining ship when larger-classed ships remain, it will flee. We have similar break-off rules in the WoG solo rules, and they work quite well. Of course, the rules of any given scenario can override such rules for the purpose of that given scenario.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •