SOG Game Mat versus... well, something else
Just wondering what the upside/downside to the SOG game mat will be. I'm of the opinion that a heavy blue colored sheet/tablecloth may work just as well, but wanted to see what the opinions of the forum members are. I'm guessing that some of the scenarios may call for a specific size playing field, but that is the only real reason that I can think of. Any thoughts/comments?
I think the primary differentiation is the superimposed grid. I am not sure if that is a hexagonal pattern or something different. As the game releases, you will, undoubtedly, see folks sharing game mat files here that they have created. You will see folks pointing to other companies.
As for WoG mats, they are very durable, lie flat immediately out of the box, and have great visuals printed on them. I just bought two, and will pick up the third - coastal - and doing this while my wife is designing some mats so we can have certain terrains that are not offered by Ares. To be honest, I am a bit surprised I bought them. To be honest, now that I have them, I am glad I bought them.
As for SoG mats, at present I prefer blue or different shades of blue. The only land mass I wouldn't mind is one that has land on both sides of a river.
Thanks for the info! I'm trying to determine if I add a map or another ship to my KS bid/order. I can see where the superimposed grid may be of assistance. Decisions, Decisions...
How do people print the oversized 'homebrew' game maps? (Staples/OfficeMax?)
If you are already receiving a free map, a second one would probably be good. At $20 and free shipping, it is not a bad deal. This would get you started and possibly keep you going for a long time.Originally Posted by GrouperKicker
The options are endless as far as printing. Folks print at office supply stores, sign stores, color printers, …
I can look up some options from the Aerodrome and place them here for you sometime today or tomorrow.
After a little research, some folks have printed off larger vinyl maps at print shops and FedEx/Kinkos, but with some mixed reviews due to slickness. Others have printed off smaller map, some laminated, and pieced together larger surfaces.
Here are two sites folks have purchased from as well:
http://gameonterrainmats.com/aerial-view-terrain-mat
http://www.hotzmats.com/index.html
You can see this thread Sails-of-Glory-Game-mat for more info already discussed.
I started out playing Wings on some green upholstery fabric (nice thick stuff) and then used the two original mats they made. I liked these a lot, but with only two of them, it was to small of an area for the larger games I ran. Next I used some solid green 4x6 foot mouse pad. I then moved to a 4x6 custom printed vinyl mat. I used this for a while and it looks great, plays great and got a lot of attention. Since Ares release their new 4 mats, I've made the switch again to using those. So, as you can see, I've used a lot of different mats and I've come back to the official mats. Now that they are modular, I find them the best option there is. I know the Sails mats will be just as good.
I'm sure the quality will be great and love the concept of 'lay flat' (very hard to achieve in many materials). I'm just a little put off by the concept of a grid, even faint, as it would rob some from the visual in my opinion if it does not dramatically add to the playability.
In your hands-on experience with the game so far do you really think a grid would make things easier? In my experience if any sort of grid pattern is present on a play surface many players tend to work within it at a subconscious level. It also creates a situation where players can try to estimate their movements and shoot ranges more accurately than they could on a more generic 'blue' surface, no?
While some players might "game" the grid to a slight advantage (though, I think enough playing experience would do the same thing), I can tell you from the two games I've been in, I really wish there would have been a grid on my playing surface!
So, Yes please to the grid!
What would the grid have aided with? Not trying to put you in the corner, but in less than a week I have to decide how to distribute my last funds...ships vs. game mat is really a hard choice so I appreciate your opinion and experience.
It would have really helped lining up the wind to the ships. It's speed up play a little bit and cut down on the "is this ship at orange or green" questioning. To me, having an extra mat is going to be more welcome then another ship. And I'd have to double check the numbers, but I think the discount on the mat via KS is great then the discount on the ships.
This is the info I have been looking for. Thanks.
Any idea how well these mats would work in conjunction with the coastal mat in WoG? Do you know if the grid would be too distracting?
You mentioned that Ares released 4 mats. Was that a typo or did I miss something?
I honestly cant say at this time.
Understood.
As I look at the prices of the WOG mats, I'm realizing that the KS is offering a good deal at $20 a mat. I'm in for one! (... or maybe 2!)
4 !
The atlantic or the pacific are wide......
You'll probably need 2. I have 2 already, but will add a couple more.
Only to cowards trying to run. My ships will always sail for the more intimate communication with the enemy fleet. Half a mat for me!4 !
The atlantic or the pacific are wide......
LOL, I'd prefer to stay WELL outside gun-range and dismast. "If you want a tow back to land, you'll cease fire and strike colors; otherwise, good luck drifting or paddling home..."
Am I reading the KS page correctly?? Will Lt. level backers get a free map if we reach 1000 backers on KS?
That's the way I read it Scott.
Captain and Crew Ability Deck to our Mates
Game Mat and a 2nd set of Smoke Clouds to our Lieutenants
Set of Counters, Terrain Pack #1, Terrain Pack #2 to our Captains
These rewards are in addition to the rewards already gained for the previous numbers of backers achieved.
Good idea. A nasty chase around the horn. I like it.4 !
The atlantic or the pacific are wide......
Personally I've got a 4'x8' table in my den for playing on. I am thinking about having a mat to play on for the sake of when I'm not at home.
Depending on your pledge level, you'll probably have one coming. At $20, I would add a second. The WoG mats are of good quality, so I imagine these will be the same.
Ditto on the WoG (new) mats. Heavy duty and no folds or crease lines! The downside of a light fabric can be seen in the Advanced Rules video! I also like the traveling idea. I have several types of cloth for mats, one is a canvas material that I hand printed light grid lines (dots) on for another game system. The downside is that it still gets fold lines unless I put it out early or iron it. However it is 8x6 so it coveres a large area. The felt mats from Hotz are also good.
I must disagree with the grid idea though. I think it would detract from the clean look of the mat. One great thing about SoG is the absence of hexes or grids for movement! Plus we are all getting those nice wood attitude rules as a reward anyway.
Grids, we don't need no stinkin Grids!
This is still the question for me. If there was no grid I would be ordering one (or an extra one depending on KS finals) for sure. With the grid I'm just not thrilled. I MAY turn out as mentioned earlier that the grid helps in play without detracting but I just don't know myself. I wish we'd have a chance for seeing it in advance but doubt they'll have one ready before KS closes.I must disagree with the grid idea though. I think it would detract from the clean look of the mat. One great thing about SoG is the absence of hexes or grids for movement! Plus we are all getting those nice wood attitude rules as a reward anyway.
Grids, we don't need no stinkin Grids!
I'm probably going to hope to get one with KS and if I like it in person I'll order additional ones later. Sight-unseen though with gridlines present I think I'd rather put any extra funds to ships...
But without a grid system, there is no way to line up those nice wood AI with the wind in any kind of consistent manner. There whole function is to allow you to locate the "wind" at each ship. If there is nothing to align them to as they are moved from ship to ship, the whole point is kind of lost. If you are just going to eyeball lining up the AI, you might as well just eyeball the wind with out using one. Well, that's my thoughts at least after playing a couple of games.
How do other Age of Sail games, without a grid, handle wind direction?
I would vote for no grid for the reason I listed in another thread:
I think Ares would be making a serious economic error if they make these mats incompatible with the WoG mats. They would be cutting out a large portion of potential sales.
I am sure I speak for more than a few WoG players when I say, even if I weren't buying into SoG, I would buy multiple mats just to expand my options for WoG.
This raises the point that I was a bit confused about. The moment you pick up the wind indicator, it seems impossible to ensure that it is placed down again at the precise same angle at some other point on the board, and I can foresee situations in which players begin to argue over the placement of the AI because even a degree or two might make a difference regarding ship movement, especially if the wind direction is right on the cusp between a ship's orange and red areas.
A grid system will help, to be sure, but I'm not sure it completely prevents these kinds of arguments from breaking out.
They would also have no cross-over sales of the new mats with WoG players. They may get player of other naval games purchasing the mats though. Would be great for War at Sea, for example.
When we play WGF, there are always little shifts taking place as one picks up or sets down planes, especially when they share the same space. Folks don't always line up hash marks or arrows perfectly, and the same thing happens when lining up rulers at times. Fortunately, we have yet to encounter any form of argument. I think if SoG is anything like WoG, we'll find that, first and foremost, folks are gathering simply to have fun. Winning, as nice as it can be, is really unimportant compared to having a good time together. If someone joins our group and is highly competitive to the point about arguing over such things, I don't think that person will last too long. Such folks tend to self-select out of groups like ours.
Any idea of how bold or contrasting the grid will be?
@Keith - I guess that's the downside of not having a chance to see the game in action yet. From the videos it looked like there must be some 'external' indicator of the wind that we weren't necessarily seeing and that the player on screen was probably aligning the AI visually with that when placing it. If the AI itself is the only indicator on the table then I can see more of where you're coming from in relation to the grid.
Nothing is ever perfect when playing mini games like these. I think the grid will be a good item to help keep a fair amount of accuracy when playing. It's about having fun and not spending half a game fighting about facing and position. The grid will help more then hinder.
There is a “master” wind vain that sits on the edge of the table. With it you control the direction and intensity, along with any variation of those two. For my games, I made the AI since I have all the “source files” for them if you will. The preview sets that were sent out (made by Richard Bliss’ group) did not have any AI in them. As such, I don’t think he had any for his latest video, so he just put his home made main wind vain (the black arrow) out in the middle of the table so it was easy to access the winds attitude on both of the ships.
It's really quite easy and incredibly effective. The sailing rules I use is gridless, but I use a hex map to place the wind direction. You pick a flat or spine of the hex for direction and it's instantly easy to place wind direction everywhere without error. I have small arrows I place in various parts of the board as reminders.
That's what I use, in fact I have a nice one from Litko with a ships wheel as a base. I think this in combination with the AI obviates the need for grid lines. IMO having a grid is a step back to using hexes, which the card movement system works nicely to avoid.
Having read all these pros and cons, and not playing any of my games with Barrack room lawyer types,(well never more than once) I have to say that the sans grid option will make me more likely to abandon my blue cloth for an extra mat, simply because of the option of using it with my WoG mats.
Bligh.
It's always a bit hard to visualize how things will go beforehand, but my thought was to have basically 8 different possible settings for the wind based on aligning a side of the 8 sided AI with one or the other of the grid lines.
Then the wind position could be accurately transferred from the "master" setting to anywhere on the game board by aligning the AI with the gridline that was closest to the ship.
Advanced/house rules could then allow for wind shift possibilities at set intervals during the game where a low liklihood random event test (die roll, etc) could cause the wind to shift by one "side" of the AI.
Pehaps rolling a pair of dice each X turns. A roll of 2 or 12 with 2 dice would cause the wind to shift by one side of the AI base in the designated direction with rolls of 3-11 causing no shift.
The enhancement I could see to this would be to use a 16 sided AI rather than 8 sided so that the initial wind setting, and potential wind shifts, would be in 2 point rather than 4 point increments.
Good position, Ted, I agree.
Well some of you guys may have fun declaring others to be rules lawyers for using a grid, but others enjoy a grid because it makes the game more fun and fast. I just ran a gridless Napoleonic miniatures game yesterday, but I run it on a hex map with wind markers aligned with the hexes. I got multiple open, unsolicited verbal comments as to how useful this was from players who had never played a Napoleonic minis game before.
We want to have fun. We want a light grid because it improves the game.
I can see myself getting 4 of the sea mats. Convention tables are pretty big and I want to do some big games. I can see a 20 player Merchant, Sailor, Soldier, Spy scenario in my SoG future
Andy is right. Fun is the objective no matter how you get there. Some prefer compass and sextant some a GPS. The destination my friends is all the same.
There are two ways the grid can help. In the majority of my gaming, and what sounds like most of yours, we are playing friendly games. We are obviously interested in winning, but it's more about having a fun time with friends and a hobby we enjoy. "Casual" gaming like this does not mean you are not playing your best and trying to bring home your opponent's ships as prizes, but it does mean you worry less about someone trying to leverage every advantage. But it seems there's also a lot of interest in SOG at conventions and tournaments. Those are often more "aggressive" games. Everyone may still be fun and polite but when you traveled a couple hundred miles, spent money on hotels and entry fees, you are going to be playing at your peak and you don't want to get into an issue at the table because it looks like your opponent may be fudging the AI a bit just so they can win at the event (these Must Win folks do show up more at events than casual games I assure you). For those cases the difference between a Green and Orange, or Orange and Red move can be a big factor.
If a light grid helps speed casual play without effecting the visuals too much then it's a Good Thing. If it can pretty much eliminate AI arguments then that's a Good Thing. I am trying not to be too hung up on the visual of the grid. After all, our ships ARE on bases with cards and not 'ocean' bases as in other systems so we can't be too fussy. But at the same time, we know the graphics on the base are there for a very significant purpose. I'm not sure just how much the grid will prove useful in the scheme of things.
I KNOW that my most cost effective time to get an additional Mat would be now, in KS. And if I could see a pic of one and make my final decision I may just choose to do so. But I just can't bring myself to buy sight-unseen.
I am really happy that we supported KS to the point of a Mat going out to Lieutenants and above so I can get one, see how it looks in person and decide for myself how it adds to play or not. If it does then I'm sure I'll get a couple more to support larger games. If not, I'll look for something more generic.
If there weren't 3,000 miles of land between us I'd join your club. Sounds like you have some good ideas for fun scenarios. 20 players sounds a little like controlled chaos though.I can see myself getting 4 of the sea mats. Convention tables are pretty big and I want to do some big games. I can see a 20 player Merchant, Sailor, Soldier, Spy scenario in my SoG future
At this point, I would buy 2 additional mats if I knew they are open water. I do not want four mats total that have land masses printed on them, especially with the amount of land terrain that is being received.
I think the grid is unquestionably good, and I trust Ares at this point to not make it too obtrusive - this is based on their other products I own.
We're in the same boat. I ordered 2 extra mats sight unseen in hopes the initial run is open water allowing the gamers to use the terrain packs for land. Grid would be nice as I am not WoG player and the grid would be helpful.
That scenario is actually called Merchant, Pirate, Sailor, Spy and is an old Star fleet Battles scenario. If anyone would like a .pdf copy, shoot me a PM with your email and I will send it along. Very fun convention scenario.
This initial mat IS going to be plain OPEN Water. Just want to make sure you guys realize this, not really yelling you at you.
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