Firing Both Broadsides at the Same Target!

I had the following situation come up:

A ship turned 90 degrees and collided with an enemy ship. The end position was perfect raking shot for the ship that had been run into. However, I then noticed that the ship which was being raked had the enemy in the angle of both its starboard and larboard front broadsides.

So if the rules were followed the ship that was being raked could have fired two broadsides into the ship that had capped the T.

Clearly nonsense and we didn't allow the ship that being raked any shots at all. My opponent didn't object to this ruling as it was a solo game :-) But in a contested game I would have preferred not to have to discuss it. Surely a glitch in the rules?

That does seem like a glitch. Not sure how to resolve it within the rules as written.
A couple different house rules I've seen proposed about firing arcs would solve it, although they weren't explicitly addressing this situation:

1) shoot at the ship, not the base - to hit, the arc has to include ship, not just the base of the target. Specifically, this variant defined the target as the hull at waterline. That should eliminate this glitch for all but the largest of targets.
2) Limit the fore and aft firing arcs to targets within a line extending along the front or rear edge of the base of the ship that is firing. This was intended to severe limit the arcs of these partial broadsides, so it may be too much, but it would completely eliminate this glitch.

Personally, I like the first option anyway, as it makes the smaller ships harder to hit.

Or,
a) just say colided ships can't shoot
b) same attacker can't shoot the same target with different arcs

Of course!
b) is the obvious solution! :shootleft: :salute: :shootright:

I still like the idea of shooting at the ship rather than the base for other reasons, but for this glitch simply ruling that you can't shoot from both sides at the same target is the most obvious fix.:fixit:

Idea of defining the target as the hull at waterline isn't bad. We used similar principle at WoW. It, however has a downside, makes cannon ranges effectively shorter.

True, and makes musket fire poorly defined too!
Hmmm. Maybe use the hull to define the target for the purpose of setting the firing arc, but use the base to define target distance?

I like it. This could be done easily, and I believe it would work.

Im guessing there will be custom base cards with more restrictive arcs and wind attitudes before long.

This seems like a problem case but more generally im somewhat on the fence about the generous firing arcs. I do want the feel to be right--these ships aren't uss monitor. But I think sometimes games struggle when they get more restrictive on shot availability than the scale supports. I.e. Requiring that be in the right place to fire at the discrete turn break, while ignoring the fact that time is continuous.

In an extreme case the result could conceivably be passing right by an enemy ship without ever having a legal shot in the combat phase. Did the captain forget to yell fire?

I kind of see the generous arcs as helping to mitigate that. Maybe you didn't line up the perfect shot, but you should still be able to get one in. We'll see if I still feel that way once i finally get my hands on it...

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Originally Posted by fredmiracle

I kind of see the generous arcs as helping to mitigate that. Maybe you didn't line up the perfect shot, but you should still be able to get one in. We'll see if I still feel that way once i finally get my hands on it...

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I agree about the generous arcs. The other aspect is that we want games to be fun and action packed. Having much smaller arcs (with the necessary short shooting ranges) would mean there would be a lot of sailing around the table top with out a lot of shooting going on. Unless you were like Nelson and said "Damn the maneuvers, go right at them!" lol

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Originally Posted by fredmiracle

Im guessing there will be custom base cards with more restrictive arcs and wind attitudes before long.

This seems like a problem case but more generally im somewhat on the fence about the generous firing arcs. I do want the feel to be right--these ships aren't uss monitor. But I think sometimes games struggle when they get more restrictive on shot availability than the scale supports. I.e. Requiring that be in the right place to fire at the discrete turn break, while ignoring the fact that time is continuous.

In an extreme case the result could conceivably be passing right by an enemy ship without ever having a legal shot in the combat phase. Did the captain forget to yell fire?

I kind of see the generous arcs as helping to mitigate that. Maybe you didn't line up the perfect shot, but you should still be able to get one in. We'll see if I still feel that way once i finally get my hands on it...

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There was some talk over on BGG or was it TMP about the firing arcs. Andrea responded that much like WoG the arcs are designed to be wide because the firing is at the end of movement, so the arc is supposed to account for the ships movement during the turn.

The other issue I have seen raised is the generous sailing angles to windward. Just looking at the cards one can see that frigates can sail too close to the wind. I am going to get my stuff on the table to check this one out, as this one is a big concern for me as a sailor.

Eric

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Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj

I agree about the generous arcs. The other aspect is that we want games to be fun and action packed. Having much smaller arcs (with the necessary short shooting ranges) would mean there would be a lot of sailing around the table top with out a lot of shooting going on. Unless you were like Nelson and said "Damn the maneuvers, go right at them!" lol

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Playing with other rules that have far more representative firing arcs still, IMHE, results in fun, action packed games. Having such wide arcs I think detracts from the manoeuvre aspect of the game - if its not that tricky to get an enemy in your sights then the need to be so canny in your manoeuvring compared with your opponent is diminished.

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Originally Posted by DeRuyter

The other issue I have seen raised is the generous sailing angles to windward. Just looking at the cards one can see that frigates can sail too close to the wind. I am going to get my stuff on the table to check this one out, as this one is a big concern for me as a sailor.

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The sailing angles are, indeed, quite generous

I propose a more reasonable solution that makes sense historically. If arks from both sides are on the same target, they cancel and firing at that target is impossible that round. Any ship in this position, in a real situation, would have nothing but bow guns on the target, which can't account for the damage on the damage tracks.

We've started playing that any ships involved in a collision can not fire outwards with anything other than musketry simply because this also came up in my first ever game and my frigate vanished in one turn...

Perhaps an approach could be to require the target to be witin the full arc only rather than the forward and aft arcs. After all, if the wide arcs are to cater for ship movement and the ships aren't moving...... :happy:

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Originally Posted by Gunner Godson

We've started playing that any ships involved in a collision can not fire outwards with anything other than musketry simply because this also came up in my first ever game and my frigate vanished in one turn...

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You may be more correct than you know -- one problem oft commented on in accounts of close-range fights is: Worrying about what happens if the opponent catches fire, or if muzzle-flash reflects back and sets one's own ship on fire.

Is this situation going to happen often enough for us to need to care?

It's covered somewhere in the rules. Says you can play firefight action for that (I just can't remember if it's for your ship only, or for both).

I'm not sure there's a problem with it tbh. In any Move-Then-Shoot style game the firing is pretty abstract already. In reality you are in motion and fire at the most advantageous time. And since all movement and all fire is pseudo-simultaneous it makes it even more abstract. I can see the shooting with both arcs simply representing that the target ship is slipping from one side to the other and the shooter fires against the initial side then fires again when the target shows up on the other side.

:rum:

I think this is an interesting scenario and we had similar only the other week. Perhaps you always have to hit the center mast of your target vs. "the base" in order to determine firing arcs?