On the face of it Abukir may need a little more wiggle room with time. Let me thnk on it, unless Sven is happy.
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On the face of it Abukir may need a little more wiggle room with time. Let me thnk on it, unless Sven is happy.
Technically, Conquerant was dismantled in the 1760s and reassembled using the old planks and the design of the then-new Citoyen class. I'll check Threedecks and also see if FWAS has anything later, but right now I'm on a bus. :(
Time is something I need to test, but the RN has perfect wind conditions and the host (me) will manage the French line with a chart.
I would not waste much time with the setup.
Positions of ships are fixed, I only need to assign the different commands.
It's looking good Sven. CAn't wait for your refight.
FWAS shows Conquerant rearmed in 1795 28x18#/30x12#/16x6#. Artesiens are 26x24#/28x12#/10x6#, so I'd go maybe halfway between an Artesien and a Temeraire, also -1 Burthen to represent her worn-out hull.
Will you also include a slightly bigger gap between 2 of the french ships to allow at least one of the British to sail between as did in the battle. (If I recall correctly). Not too big but say a base and a half width?
As to crews:
A more pressing problem for Brueys was a lack of food and water for the fleet: Bonaparte had unloaded almost all of the provisions carried aboard and no supplies were reaching the ships from the shore. To remedy this, Brueys sent foraging parties of 25 men from each ship along the coast to requisition food, dig wells, and collect water. Constant attacks by Bedouin partisans, however, required escorts of heavily armed guards for each party. Hence, up to a third of the fleet's sailors were away from their ships at any one time.
Brueys wrote a letter describing the situation to Minister of Marine Étienne Eustache Bruix, reporting that:
"Our crews are weak, both in number and quality. Our rigging, in general, out of repair, and I am sure it requires no little courage to undertake the management of a fleet furnished with such tools."
Your north isn't where I'd put the north. That doesn't really matter but the wind is off by almost 90 degrees counter clockwise.
Look at which way Bellerophon drifted. It was almost completely downwind. The island with the little fort was almost to the north.
In all other things this looks great!
Thank you Sir. :salute:
Please have a look for Abukir at Google maps and tell me again, that my North isn't the real North. :wink:
In my scenario the wind comes from North/West (not North-North/West like historical) for a more easy derterming the wind direction. (blue lines on the gaming mats.)
Beside this I don't want to place an extra battery on the norther edge of the land tongue.
Jonas is there any chance of us cajoling you to come over and join us for the Doncaster Lend lease event.
I would love to meet you in person.
Rob.
I could do that Neil, but what ship will enter the gap before the French line around is gunned down that far, that a RN ship can enter it without being racked from the bow one or two times? :question:
The lack of crews is a point...
The French SoL started the whole campaing with only 85 % of crews and the had some men on the shores.
So I reduced the crew and the first crew box is blocked.
Maybe the historical situation allows to block two boxes of each ship, or I raise the reload time for French ships. (fire / reload / reload instead of fire / reload)
Difficult. :help:
Historically the ship that cuts the line is Leander, and I have a cunning plan for that move Mr B.
Baldrick.
I made it a little too small, but the round thing above my right line is Nelson Island. It's the small island that had a fort between which and the French line HMS Goliath sailed. If you look at the orientation of the island and your battlemaps you will find that the Island have rotated 45 degrees on google earth. The French line was more or less North-West to South-East.
About me going to Doncaster, it would be fun, but I know nothing about when and where. With the new wave coming out I might not have the money for it.
Very quick bad drawing of the orientation of the battle:
Attachment 26047
Yellow is wind.
Red is British
Blue (if you can see it) is French.
I think the French line should be tilted perhaps some degrees counter clockwise more than that quick drawing from memory, but you should be able to align it better to your maps you no doubt have.
Here you have a picture with north marked.
Attachment 26046
It wasn't 90 degrees but perhaps 45...
Attachment 26048
From this picture and from written sources several British ships raked the French line. I can't remember which ones but some French ship changed angle to rake a British ship and was in turn raked by another. There were a lot of raking going on...
This picture also have the wind marked on the compass rose.
Dear Jonas Doncaster is not until next September.
You can get details here.
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...Doncaster-2017
We are hosting the Lend Lease winner who will be a prominent member from the USA this time.
Rob.
Of course I need to make concessions to the position and orientation of the French line. That's not fixed at the moment. A straight line can't be the solution.
For raking, I know that the HMS Leander make it in a perfect postion, because she used the darkness to sneak into the battle line and get in a formidable position. HMS Alexander was able to get behing the Orient.
Maybe there should be a gap like Neil wrote?
(Did any other RN ship break throug the French line? :question:)
I can imagine a bow raking of the Guerrier, too.
If you look a picture number 2, I think it's not possible to get a SoG ship with our rules in a position like the HMS Theseus.
But in general, the British ships try to anchor in a good shooting position to fight the first French SoLs together. This anchor maneuver was in some cases succesful and in some cases not.
This battle was decided by concentrated crossfire and the immobile French line. Only HMS Bellerophon payed the bill for getting early into crossfire of the Orient and I think the Franklin.
That's what I have...
That's the difficulty to press this battle on two gaming mats, giving enough place for maneuvers, grant the players fun and solve the mission in 2 hours.
In my opinion the key element for a succesful and interesting mission is the "cooperation". And some questions the players have to care for regarding the mission goals:
Will the other Captains obey the orders from Nelson and Foley?
How do they navigate? - a single collision can be desastrous.
How many ships to send in between the coast and the French line? 3 or 4
How should be Nelsons approach? Slow or fats? Fighting the first French SoLs together with Foley or rush to the Orient , avoid fire from Conquerant, Aquilon, Franklin, Peuple Souverain... and try to fight the 1st rate down?
Is it possible to use historic elements and anchor beside the enemy and decimate him ship by ship?
Can be the reduced French crews the key to victory?
Many questions...
Sven, I think you have it all well in hand, and looking at your second picture you have a good view of where north should be and where the wind was coming from.
The thing about raking is you should make some possibility for it but you can never fully recreate historical movements.
I've seen tries to make rules for spring anchors, maybe even here on the anchorage, but in your time frame you can't get bogged down with details for special rules that will take a lot of time to explain.
You should focus on a quick fun game and before my comments I think you were on the right way.
It's important to exchange points of view and historical facts & aspects.
So every input is most welcome like Rob (blocked gunports), DB (which minatures), Neil (crews) you (terrain, wind and French line),...
Already fired the rep gun, but can't shoot at Neil & youi at the moment because I have to spread rep around first. :wink:
Not being a native speaker it's sometimes hard to express in the adequate way in a debate here. :surrender:
You can be sure that we British Captains are already studying our charts, and discussing what to do dear Compte.
To that end I have found during my research this morning two things which may help or hinder your own research, and bring to light the truth about ships not obeying orders re the Culloden's grounding.
I quote here from a book containing the actual dispatches sent by Nelson. In it this statement is made.
"Foley, in the leading British ship, the Goliath, had a copy of Bellin's Petit Atlas Maritime of 1764, complete with measured depths; that Hood had a less accurate map of English origin; and that Benjamin Hallowell of the Swiftsure had recently captured a rough French sketch of the bay together with rudimentary sailing directions."
It would therefore appear that Troubridge had strayed out of the known safe channel.
The second is a set of three French Maps of the action which I will photograph for you and post here. If they are not clear enough, I can photocopy and send them on by post if you think they will add anything to your knowledge.
Rob.
Here are the French maps Sven.
Attachment 26063
Attachment 26061
Attachment 26062
It was mentioned in the text that the French Fleet is actually in a different order from that given by Nelson in his dispatches.
Also the approach of the British Fleet initial formation may be of interest.
Rob.
Great stuff Rob.
Thank you.
The literature about Napleonic war at seas is very limited in German language.
I will look out what else I can find then Sven.
Would you like me to post on those maps or are they clear enough?
Rob.
Thank you also for the Rep. I just saw it in my Notifications section.
Rob.
You're welcome. The Maps are Detailed enough.
:thumbsup:
What Book those Maps are from?
I kit bashed two Orient's 'on fire' and would be happy to donate one to the event next year if there's any interest? Here's the link to the old thread with some photos, etc. Just let me know.
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ht=orient+fire
Hi Sven.
The book is called "In the hour of victory." The Royal Navy at war in the age of Nelson.by Sam Willis ISBN. number 9780857895707. RRP £25 Amazon have it for £14.95.
You can see my review of it here:- http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...our-of-Victory
Rob.
The last picture I posted is also French. "Combat naval d'Aboukir".
It is certainly interesting to cross reference our French maps with the English ones Jonas.
Rob.
I was just thinking it's too bad the ground-scale has to be so exaggerated... it looks a lot more difficult for Foley to "thread the needle" than it was IRL.
If you ever see Walram around, you might find picking his brain worth the effort--my sculpt notes are built on a spreadsheet he asked me to check out for him while he was planning his own version.
Foley's problem were in part speed to get out of the guns from the fort on what would later be known as Nelson island and keeping away from the shallow water that the French frigate tried to lure the British onto.
Here's Jonas's interim Ship Log for the Tonnants we've cleared for playtest, if it helps.
http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.p...8&d=1427539966